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radar and toft - first impressions
Old 12th July 2009
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Shepperd View Post
I have nothing against RADAR. IMO, it's a sonically outstanding system. Probably the best digital A-D, D-A's out there.
And long before most of you had heard the word RADAR, I was beta testing 2.0 software for the system.
I just think if you have a fix it later mentality, changing hardware won't change that.
When you owned the Pro Tools system did you not want to get the sound right going in?
And when you bought the RADAR you did?

My point is Pro Tools ends up being the boogeyman for to many situations.
It astonishes me that PT gets characterized as primarily a "fix it" machine. It's in truth an extremely expressive and creative tool.

Btw, there's no beat down here of the OP. It's gearslutz and we're just chewing the fat like we do. A little trash talk. Definitely nothing personal.

-R
Old 10th August 2009
  #32
tekis
Guest
Radar fan here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiritworks View Post
Worth every penny. You'll never need any other converters or any other clock. Please, anyone with a Radar - use it's clock as master. by the way, I don't sell Radar, but I still think it's the "dog's danglers"
I've been using Radar for 12 years now. Originally,after A/B'ing Radar to my analog master, I discovered that Radar sounded very good, "Better than I wanted it to," in fact. While I have two systems, I rarely ever run them together, as I like to focus on 24 faders/tracks. I never worry about getting the latest convertors or outboard clocks. It's all right here. I reserve 2 tracks (23&24) to mix to. Try patching the outputs of 23&24 to a ext 2-track return. Send your mix output/stereo buss to 23&24. Viola! You have "automation" now. You can "punch into the mix" when you miss a ride. Need mutes? "Copy project" and proceed. I just got ProTools M-Powered 8 and a Lightbridge(biggest pain with Macs, software, drivers, etc--not enough room to post here...). I open PT sessions and record them in digitally via lightpipe and proceed on Radar. Radar has a real interface too--not a Mac keyboard! I don't sell Radar btw, I just used it day in and out to make a living recording music. That's what I like to do.
Congratulations. You're already making music instead of paging thru menus and staring at screens....
Old 10th August 2009
  #33
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekis View Post
Try patching the outputs of 23&24 to a ext 2-track return. Send your mix output/stereo buss to 23&24. Viola! You have "automation" now. You can "punch into the mix" when you miss a ride. Need mutes? "Copy project" and proceed.
+1 for this wonderful technique! I also do it with the DAW, but RADAR punches like nobody in this game. Its a Razor Blade of accuracy. Good idea with the "copy project" move on the fly. Edit-away on the chopping block and you can always go back to the beginning and start over without issue, [that is, if you even need to]
Old 10th August 2009
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dirt View Post
i just finished an awesome day with jack rose, glenn jones, nathan bowles, harmonica dan and hans chew (gtr, banjo, washboard, harp, tacked piano)
I run a similar setup...with the "poor man's Radar" - the Alesis HD24 XR, and do quite enjoy this style of working. That being said, I mainly wanted to pipe in and say that this is an awesome session to hear someone on GS talk about working on! I love the music that Jack and Glenn have been involved in. Feel free to share a couple anecdotes.

Cheers!
Old 10th August 2009
  #35
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I have both RADAR and PT. The problem I have with RADAR is that if you can do the project on RADAR you might as well go 2". And that is usually what we do here. I mean RADAR doesn't really offer that much more in editing capability than tape, and since tape sounds better, why bother with RADAR?

OTOH, if it going to be "one of those" records, RADAR cannot replace ProTools. You need PT.
Old 10th August 2009
  #36
Registered User
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dirt View Post
hi all

i'm back with a few more mixes done this week

only son

this was tracked to the radar and mixed thru the toft

springfield (tennessee part III)

this was previously tracked to my pro tools hd system... imported into radar and mixed thru the toft...

this is fun! even documenting all the recall sheets... it's a little zen... it slows the process down but i feel like i am getting more done... getting solid sounds and mixes quicker and then moving on... not thinking, "lemme take a break from this song, flip over to another, work on that, come back, tweak this, tweak that, click drag drop... etc"

it's more like - "hmmm, this sounds good..." work work... rest ears... work work... leave it up on the board overnight... sleep... listen... make a pass... **** up... make another... burn a disc... listen... make an adjustment or two... make a pass... nail it... burn it... listen... smile... document it (with a pen and paper no less!)... tear it down... start another song...

Sorry but who tuned that piano?
I would demand a refund.
Old 11th August 2009
  #37
tekis
Guest
I'd like to see you mix to tracks 23&24 on tape!

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
I have both RADAR and PT. The problem I have with RADAR is that if you can do the project on RADAR you might as well go 2". And that is usually what we do here. I mean RADAR doesn't really offer that much more in editing capability than tape, and since tape sounds better, why bother with RADAR?

OTOH, if it going to be "one of those" records, RADAR cannot replace ProTools. You need PT.
I love tape(I own several Ampex 102's and a 3M M56 16trk 2"). Tape has no "un-do" and you cannot demo edits without committing. If you can't see the benefit of Radar over tape, you haven't learned what Radar is capable of! Radar sounds better than PT(duh). And I don't do those "one of those" records...
Old 11th August 2009
  #38
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heh

I try to avoid "those records" myself as well. Usually my PT rig is only used by outside engineers.

Anyhow, what do you need an undo button for?

(Oh and PS, I don't think the benefit outweighs the sonic compromise).
Old 11th August 2009
  #39
tekis
Guest
"Usually," huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
heh

I try to avoid "those records" myself as well. Usually my PT rig is only used by outside engineers.

Anyhow, what do you need an undo button for?

(Oh and PS, I don't think the benefit outweighs the sonic compromise).
Do I own any records that you've done? What kind of tape machine are you running that you THINK sounds THAT much better?
YOU might need PT, my friend....

PS: I'm not afraid of razor blades either!

Last edited by tekis; 11th August 2009 at 05:30 AM.. Reason: [email protected]#$%^&*()_GearMonkeys!09
Old 11th August 2009
  #40
jhg
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turn off the monitor

If you can separate the visual from the hearing and concentrating, wow. Concentrate on the music and not staring at screen. Decisions are made. Ideas are determined. Maybe even committed too. Is it right for everyone?
Old 11th August 2009
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
I have both RADAR and PT. The problem I have with RADAR is that if you can do the project on RADAR you might as well go 2". And that is usually what we do here. I mean RADAR doesn't really offer that much more in editing capability than tape, and since tape sounds better, why bother with RADAR?

OTOH, if it going to be "one of those" records, RADAR cannot replace ProTools. You need PT.
"Elvis" has beaten out our Sony Badge JH24 2" with good formulations of tape numerous times in our studio. I like mixing stuff in one night. That's why I use the RADAR. I track the basics to tape, dump them into RADAR and cut dubs and mix/edit/shellac the record together. Its an extremely effortless way of working, and then of course there's the "sound" and did I mention the dynamic range and S/N ratio?
Old 11th August 2009
  #42
tekis
Guest
Say that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc Mixwell View Post
"Elvis" has beaten out our Sony Badge JH24 2" with good formulations of tape numerous times in our studio. I like mixing stuff in one night. That's why I use the RADAR. I track the basics to tape, dump them into RADAR and cut dubs and mix/edit/shellac the record together. Its an extremely effortless way of working, and then of course there's the "sound" and did I mention the dynamic range and S/N ratio?


Yeah, that's the best of both worlds!
Old 11th August 2009
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekis View Post
Do I own any records that you've done? What kind of tape machine are you running that you THINK sounds THAT much better?
YOU might need PT, my friend....

PS: I'm not afraid of razor blades either!
Hey Tekis, I was not trying to be combative with you. But to answer your questions, you may have heard my work and I have an Otari MTr90MKII as well as a Studer A827 and a 1/2" ATR 102. I like working with RADAR much more than PT, but at the end of the day I believe you use PT because you must. But given the choice between RADAR and tape (assumming a good band) I will choose tape. It is my opinion that the sacrifice in sound is not worth the extra editing capablity you get from RADAR.

Just my opinion, nothing to get upset about. Oh, and for the record I use RADAR classic not Nyquist.
Old 11th August 2009
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Hey Tekis, I was not trying to be combative with you. But to answer your questions, you may have heard my work and I have an Otari MTr90MKII as well as a Studer A827 and a 1/2" ATR 102. I like working with RADAR much more than PT, but at the end of the day I believe you use PT because you must. But given the choice between RADAR and tape (assumming a good band) I will choose tape. It is my opinion that the sacrifice in sound is not worth the extra editing capablity you get from RADAR.

Just my opinion, nothing to get upset about. Oh, and for the record I use RADAR classic not Nyquist.
I would really think about putting Nyquist cards in the machine. Its worth it. But, hey, don't let me tell you either way. Sounds like you have methods that work, and work they shall.
Old 12th August 2009
  #45
tekis
Guest
It's cool...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
Hey Tekis, I was not trying to be combative with you. But to answer your questions, you may have heard my work and I have an Otari MTr90MKII as well as a Studer A827 and a 1/2" ATR 102. I like working with RADAR much more than PT, but at the end of the day I believe you use PT because you must. But given the choice between RADAR and tape (assumming a good band) I will choose tape. It is my opinion that the sacrifice in sound is not worth the extra editing capablity you get from RADAR.

Just my opinion, nothing to get upset about. Oh, and for the record I use RADAR classic not Nyquist.
I sincerely apologize for being "combative." If given the choice, I'll bounce from tape to Radar, provided said tape machine sounds good. Not many studios maintain their machines that well anymore. I won't do projects that "need" PT. Why bother? If one does a project that "needs" PT, then you're already admitting to it being a sub-standard affair. I don't like spending endless hours editing. I like recording--not editing. Do we really need more music that "needs PT"? I'm not sure what you're implying about the Classic/Nyquist thing. Peace.
Old 14th August 2009
  #46
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Well RADAR has two sets of converter choices for their boxes; Nyquist or Classic.

The Nyquist are newer and apparently less coloured, although I have not used them so that is second hand info on my part.
Old 14th August 2009
  #47
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[QUOTE]
[QUOTE=tekis;4469035 I won't do projects that "need" PT. Why bother? If one does a project that "needs" PT, then you're already admitting to it being a sub-standard affair. I don't like spending endless hours editing. I like recording--not editing. Do we really need more music that "needs PT"?
[/QUOTE]
I like that.
I'd record at your house on a four track with that attitude.
Bravo.


steelyfan
Old 14th August 2009
  #48
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heyman's Avatar
Blackdirt.. Congrats..

I see Tony's and your point. The Radar does force you to make decisions alot sooner than later due to its limited track count and PT's endless editing capabilities- one could lean toward the fix it later approach..

But like Tony said, Its the User, not the tools..

I record back to 2 tracks on the Radar.. I love the option of recording a mix, listening back.. If I find an area in the mix that needs a tweak- create a punch in/out point and set autopunch and just re mix the desired area.

The punch in/outs are flawless.
Old 15th August 2009
  #49
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heyman's Avatar
"finishing up a record with deer tick a day after the denny session ends"


This Deer Tick?

Deer Tick on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos


...
Old 15th August 2009
  #50
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heyman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Dirt View Post
yeah... we tracked and mixed a record in january but they want to do another song and recut a couple...
Locals guys from my neck of the woods..

Hey if they ever need anything touched up , we are running the same setup-
let me know, be more than happy to help you out..
Old 15th August 2009
  #51
Gear Addict
 
Cheech's Avatar
 

All that being said...... If anyone is interested in a Radar 24 Classic..... Im selling one.
Over in the classifieds you will find it.

The first question people ask, is.. "WHY?"

Im just not doing that much anymore, not as much as I hoped, so i feel it would be better put to use.

Have a great day.

Sorry if I crossed any lines posting this here.
Old 15th August 2009
  #52
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Just watched the finishing touches get applied to my work's brand new Trident 80B and Radar room. I've been working with RADAR and Pro Tools for over 5 years now and I totally prefer Radar for tracking and mixing. That said, I still prefer Pro Tools for any editing or sound design work. I generally engineer a session completely different when using ProTools than when I use Radar. They each have their own vibe to them and I think that really affects the way both the engineer and talent work.

As for the the radar vs tape discussion thrown in here, I cant do all the quick data backup work on tape (non real time) that I can do on a radar and also the radar doesn't go out of cal...ever!
Old 19th August 2009
  #53
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Kris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randall View Post
I think this may be the first time I've listened to the Toft.. I know what Radar can do.

The Toft doesn't sound to me to be a whole lot different than a glorified Mackie
If by 'glorified' you mean 'sounds a hell of a lot better' then I'd agree.

P.S. Did you form this opinion by actually sitting in front of a Toft and 'listening to it', or are you saying you are basing your opinion of it by listening to a single audio clip on the internet?!?!?
Old 20th August 2009
  #54
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Not sure if I've ever heard Help Yourself, but I do see the resemblance.
Attached Thumbnails
radar and toft - first impressions-cover_help_yourself.jpg   radar and toft - first impressions-color_cover1.jpg  
Old 23rd August 2009
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kats View Post
I have both RADAR and PT. The problem I have with RADAR is that if you can do the project on RADAR you might as well go 2". And that is usually what we do here. I mean RADAR doesn't really offer that much more in editing capability than tape, and since tape sounds better, why bother with RADAR?

OTOH, if it going to be "one of those" records, RADAR cannot replace ProTools. You need PT.
except that 2" tape costs more.

the machines are more finnicky, bigger, and have to be maintained more.

you have to wait for a tape machine to locate, whereas the hd recorder is instantaneous.

since i got my hard disk recorder (hd24xr), i noticed a couple of things...

1) its great going over a tricky passage over and over again knowing that you're not knocking particles off the tape every time, eventually diminishing the quality of the sound.

2) editing is such a pain (when compared to a computer based system) that you HAVE to get it right when you play / record it...

imagine that... musicians doing the editing in real time...

you guys who keep saying you don't HAVE to use this or that feature in pro tools seem to miss the point, imo...

that IS the way almost everyone using daw's works...

when i go on a session with cats running pro-tools, logic, etc etc., its amazing how quickly they get me out of there...

they just run the material one time, and say, react to this...

all they're planning on doing is grabbing something they like then cutting and pasting...

kind of a waste of all those years of lessons, if u ask me.

an actual recorder (radar, 24 track, etc.) is there to make a RECORD of what you actually play... not to reassemble what you DIDN'T play into something that passes for a musical statement.
Old 23rd August 2009
  #56
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heyman's Avatar
"an actual recorder (radar, 24 track, etc.) is there to make a RECORD of what you actually play... not to reassemble what you DIDN'T play into something that passes for a musical statement"


wow... thank God someone stepped up and said something. My thoughts exactly.

I will never get rich doing this. You know what, I dont give a ****.. Its one thing to nudge a little here, clean up something there.. Perserve a performance .. That translates..
Nothing musical about elastic audio and grid editing..

Now we have engineers chiming in saying "we need pro tools" Sorry my friend, that just sends a bad message..

The funny thing is studio rates have dropped so low, you would think the "musicians" of today would come in better prepared.. But they are not..

It's like a double kick in the nuts... Ok, I will drop my rates and now you want me to grid edit your turd of a song.. Fantastic.
...


...
Old 23rd August 2009
  #57
Gear Addict
 

To blackdirt
I myself just started mixing OTB through a old Soundcraft Spirit Studio 24/8/2. Seeing your studio shots almost reminds me of mine with a lot of simular outboard stuff.
I track with Apogee AD/DA 16X Nuendo4.
I must say that I im finally happy with my mixes since mixing OTB. Its just so much better and the tracks now sound the way i want them. Depth/Open/Clear/3D/Seperation. I am kickn ass now in a big way.
To me a consloe is the only way and im not real sure but there is something about neundo that sounds wonderful too.
But hey Blackdirt you have a radar system, i could only imagine how great it must sound.

Cheers and congradulations
Old 23rd August 2009
  #58
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Well soultrane, I agree with you on the last half but not really the first. There definitely IS a PT way of working, I know exactly what you mean by that - and you CANNOT do that with RADAR. I think I was pretty clear about that in my initial post.

I think it is suitable in many circumstances, but more and more I see a bit of a rebellion to that process in quite a few genre's. I'm getting more business now because I can record bands live off the floor with no grid to tape (usually) or RADAR (for the weak of heart) and my HD rig just sits there. Actually, my HD rig only gets used for outside producers - and even that is beginning to change.

My opinion? Your lessons weren't a waste.
Old 23rd August 2009
  #59
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heyman's Avatar
To add one more thing.. My last post is not a knock against anyone using Pro Tools.. It is knock against creating a perception that anything and everything can and should be fixed at a later time..


Thanks for listening..
Old 1st March 2010
  #60
Gear Maniac
 

So what will this setup set me back toft atb 24 /radar 24 track recorder?jz
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