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CREAM -I'm noticing a lot of their recordings are kind of marginal
Old 30th June 2013
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murray View Post
This one of those songs that anyone who has ever or will ever play in a garage band plays.

And by garage band, I mean an actual band in an actual garage.

I think this song is often funner for the band to play than it is to listen to.

There are a ton of covers:

wow.


some new kids:




go to 5:49








disco 1978:
Sunshine Of Your Love — Chilly — ??????? ?????????, ????? ????? — MOSKVA.FM

japanese hardcore:
https://myspace.com/gastunk/music/so...-love-71316292
santana made so much money on other people's songs
He plays that one note better than anyone. But I guess with his aggressive vibrato it's like a note and a half
Old 30th June 2013
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Lol, "Duane Allman's slide part is so pitchy" that you can't listen to one of the most emotional moments in classic rock?

Some folks know how to creatively use intonation to draw out certain feelings.
Like anxiety? Misery? Misanthropy? It's like some Inquisition torture. They probably blast it through loudspeakers at Guantanamo. Allman fights the piano the whole way through. Probably sounds fine by itself, but he's not playing by himself.
Old 30th June 2013
  #93
Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
Like anxiety? Misery? Misanthropy? It's like some Inquisition torture. They probably blast it through loudspeakers at Guantanamo. Allman fights the piano the whole way through. Probably sounds fine by itself, but he's not playing by himself.
Actually, when I went back and listened again yesterday, while there are certainly issues with the piano and the slide parts, I would say that some of the most troubling pitch provocations are from all those overlapping slide overdub parts in the chilldown outro. You've got all these glissandi criss crossing at once, so there are all kinds of moments of dissonance in just the slide parts alone.

And then, for sure, there's the piano issue. Not entirely sure the piano and Duane's guitar started out in tuning consonance, for that matter, but, certainly, slide and piano can be a provocative combo even when they start out precisely in tune. Something's gotta give, pitch-wise, the way probably most sophisticated slide players play. Either the slide player has got to revert to more on the Equal Temperament money (over the fret, as it were) playing, or the piano parts and the slide parts have to be kept in separate tonal ranges if possible.


FWIW, it's interesting, because this song came out not long after I'd started playing guitar (started late at 20). Now, I had a terrible time with pitch getting started. I could hear when things were out of tune, easily, but I had great difficulty sorting out which of two pitches in a roughly 5-7 semitone range was the high and which the low. Broke a few strings.

But, now that my memory is refreshed, I do remember being troubled by the harmonic mayhem in Layla. But, you know, I was still clinging to my 60s Clapton-worship, and I was a fan of the early Allmans, the song overall moved me, and it was hugely popular, even among my normally insufferably elitist pals. I got used to it...
Old 30th June 2013
  #94
I often find that as an audio engineer, when there's a song like "Layla" that is universally loved by listeners and musicians alike, but has some imperfections, it's best if I try to learn to appreciate what it is about that recording that draws people in, rather than let imperfections destroy my appreciation of it.

I mean, for Christsakes, it's Layla! The burden of proof that it isn't a good recording, that Duane sucks on it? The burden of proof is on YOU my friend. That's one of the top 10 classic rock songs consistently, on any critics list.

And believe me, as a classical performer and a big band lead trumpet player, intonation is somethig that I am very sensitive to. If I can see through that tracks pity intonation flaws for the gem inside, the ENERGY that defines the music, that incredibly powerful performance, anyone can.
Old 30th June 2013
  #95
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
I often find that as an audio engineer, when there's a song like "Layla" that is universally loved by listeners and musicians alike, but has some imperfections, it's best if I try to learn to appreciate what it is about that recording that draws people in, rather than let imperfections destroy my appreciation of it.

I mean, for Christsakes, it's Layla! The burden of proof that it isn't a good recording, that Duane sucks on it? The burden of proof is on YOU my friend. That's one of the top 10 classic rock songs consistently, on any critics list.

And believe me, as a classical performer and a big band lead trumpet player, intonation is somethig that I am very sensitive to. If I can see through that tracks pity intonation flaws for the gem inside, the ENERGY that defines the music, that incredibly powerful performance, anyone can.
I'm thinking that's directed more at Travis than me (I like Layla, though I've always noticed the pitch mayhem), and I get what you're saying -- but I do find this topic fascinating, particularly in light of the current commercial pop music 'obsession' with grid-tuned vocals. The fact that the song, "Layla," could be both a monster hit and have pitch/dissonance issues so profound as to prevent any enjoyment by some is intriguing to me.

It's interesting to consider this rather extreme divergence in subjective effect.

We might be tempted to suspect that different folks have different reactions to beat tones, the phantom tones humans tend to hear when exposed to two or more tones of proximate but not identical pitch). Such tones, as we know from the last half century or more of research [though incorrect information is STILL in some educational channels like some of the online materials from Georgia State University] are 'subjective' in the sense that they are produced by the human hearing apparatus -- not caused, as was once speculated [and described in some GSU online 'tutorials'], by intermodulation of waves in air -- since free air acts basically as a linear system, but rather by nonlinear aspects of the human hearing system related to both physical and, it is now believed, neurological processes. (Relatively recent experiments have demonstrated that beat tones can be perceived when the two source tones are delivered independently, one to each ear, via headphones, suggesting that these nonlinearities arise, at least in part, from neurological processes.)

Another factor may be that in variations from human to human in the temporal aspect.

Different listeners clearly have different predilections and capabilities with regard to their harmonic integration of serial tones. That is to say, some folks may well have better recognition of harmonic relationships over time.

So, for instance, we might have one cohort that easily hears dissonance in simultaneous tones but for whom the effect is greatly diminished if the tones are played individually in sequence, yet another cohort which readily hears dissonance in a sequence of individual tones.


Anyone know a good overview/survey book on recent perceptual science?
Old 30th June 2013
  #96
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Mertmo's Avatar
 

The Bobby McFerrin cover is missing from that youtube list, bummer...

My favorite cover of "sunshine" by far
Old 30th June 2013
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
I often find that as an audio engineer, when there's a song like "Layla" that is universally loved by listeners and musicians alike, but has some imperfections, it's best if I try to learn to appreciate what it is about that recording that draws people in, rather than let imperfections destroy my appreciation of it.

I mean, for Christsakes, it's Layla! The burden of proof that it isn't a good recording, that Duane sucks on it? The burden of proof is on YOU my friend. That's one of the top 10 classic rock songs consistently, on any critics list.

And believe me, as a classical performer and a big band lead trumpet player, intonation is somethig that I am very sensitive to. If I can see through that tracks pity intonation flaws for the gem inside, the ENERGY that defines the music, that incredibly powerful performance, anyone can.
Heh. I still love the song and not deriding its place in the canon of classic rock. I just find the outro aggravating. That's just me. I'm not implying that you have philistine taste. If it's any consolation, I turn the radio down when it gets to that part and let it play it in my head (in key)
Old 30th June 2013
  #98
It might be my love of Little Feat and all things slide guitar that has dampened my sensitivity to intonation in that genre.

To be honest, though, when I play a part that's out of tune while recordig, It bugs the hell out of me. Why can't my out of tune notes sound as good as Duane's? Lol
Old 30th June 2013
  #99
Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
Heh. I still love the song and not deriding its place in the canon of classic rock. I just find the outro aggravating. That's just me. I'm not implying that you have philistine taste. If it's any consolation, I turn the radio down when it gets to that part and let it play it in my head (in key)
Have you checked out any of the live cuts with Derick Trucks (sp?) on slide? That dude is a serious monster. That outro I find is usually very boring when Clapton plays it live, but D really makes something with it.
Old 30th June 2013
  #100
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travisbrown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Have you checked out any of the live cuts with Derick Trucks (sp?) on slide? That dude is a serious monster. That outro I find is usually very boring when Clapton plays it live, but D really makes something with it.
I saw Derek Trucks and Susan Tedeschi in concert last year. I had never heard anyone play that much slide with that degree of precision before. It was stunning.

And to reiterate, it's not that I don't like the composition. I think it is a keynote in the canon of classic rock. I just wish that Duane Allman had done another take when he was a little more sober or less tired or whatever the problem was.
Old 30th June 2013
  #101
I'd been neglecting Trucks and Tedeschi (who greatly impressed me in some of their live/live-in-studio vids) so I put some on since the topic came up. Trucks is a fine slide player.

Anyhow, eventually up came "Already Free" off Trucks' album of the same name.

And, I have to say, while not nearly so chaotic as the Layla outtro ("Already" has minimal accompaniment), it has a number of overdubbed slides and, inevitably, some harmonic trainwreckery ensues, without question. I mean, you got one gliss going up and one going down, there's gonna be some dissonance in there.

So, we all human here, baby.
Old 30th June 2013
  #102
The fact that it's an uber-classic AND full of human imperfection is something I wish more people today would appreciate in general. Imperfection increases uniqueness because everyone's imperfections are somewhat different. Perfection decreases uniqueness because perfectly tuned and perfection quantized are the same for everyone.
Old 30th June 2013
  #103
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I feel like I tipped a sacred cow.
Old 30th June 2013
  #104
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Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
I just wish that Duane Allman had done another take when he was a little more sober...
Instead, he did more takes while he wasn't. And they used them all.
Old 30th June 2013
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Roddey View Post
The fact that it's an uber-classic AND full of human imperfection is something I wish more people today would appreciate in general. Imperfection increases uniqueness because everyone's imperfections are somewhat different. Perfection decreases uniqueness because perfectly tuned and perfection quantized are the same for everyone.
I think this is something that many will agree with.

I certainly do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
I feel like I tipped a sacred cow.


Well, I noticed the issue when it came out, at a time when I was just starting to play music, so it's not like you invented it. And I think you actually make some of the same distinctions and observations as Dean above. So I don't think you're being outrageous. Or sacrilegious, even. heh

I think it was a healthy thing to bring up. I'm glad to have been prodded to think back through some of the issues. Maybe it was percolating in my head from listening earlier in the week (that time more to re-familiarize myself with the production aspects, as the last time I'd actually heard "Layla" previously was when I first weighed into this thread in, what? 2005?)

Anyhow, I think it brings up fascinating aspects, like the temporal aspect. Dischordant intervals are pretty obvious when the sounds are simultaneous, but less so when spread out in time. And it seems intuitive to assume that perception of dishord may vary more widely from person to person in the sequential, temporal mode than when all tones are sounded at once. I call for more research, publicly available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Instead, he did more takes while he wasn't. And they used them all.
Yep. That seems to have been the case. God love him. RIP, Duane.
Old 30th June 2013
  #106
Or maybe they just really liked the way it sounded, they liked the energy, and they said screw the intonation! What's 5 cents between friends?

You realize that was improvised, right?
Old 30th June 2013
  #107
Gear Guru
Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
I often find that as an audio engineer, when there's a song like "Layla" that is universally loved by listeners and musicians alike, but has some imperfections, it's best if I try to learn to appreciate what it is about that recording that draws people in, rather than let imperfections destroy my appreciation of it.

I mean, for Christsakes, it's Layla! The burden of proof that it isn't a good recording, that Duane sucks on it? The burden of proof is on YOU my friend. That's one of the top 10 classic rock songs consistently, on any critics list.

And believe me, as a classical performer and a big band lead trumpet player, intonation is somethig that I am very sensitive to. If I can see through that tracks pity intonation flaws for the gem inside, the ENERGY that defines the music, that incredibly powerful performance, anyone can.
What he said.
Old 30th June 2013
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
You realize that was improvised, right?
I certainly hope it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
...maybe they just really liked the way it sounded, they liked the energy, and they said screw the intonation!
Maybe.

I remember very clearly the first time I heard it. Not the end, the beginning.

"Wow. Amazing hook. Who the eff is this?"

"Oh. Clapton. Can't hit the notes. Wrong key. Voice is shot. Ouch."

"Wow. Amazing hook."
Old 30th June 2013
  #109
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As more irrelevant stuff to add to this very old thread.....

In terms of sonics and gear, Sunshine of Your Love etc from Disraeli Gears is simply a product of its time.... and doesn't ... doesn't.....represent the "1967 engineering community's" consensus on how EVERY thing was/should be/ recorded in that moment in time. It was simply an approach. One of gazillions.

For example, even with Cream, there was the element of tracking with no real pre-planning.....Dowd did numerous interviews on the ear-shattering gear setup for tracking Disraeli Gears.

Any number of "1967 engineers" were experimenting with and dealing with this relatively NEW concept of having three or four Marshall stacks set to 11 in the studio. And if you were working and remember back then, it WASN'T exactly easy to get that happening in a rapid-fire way.

In terms of "tone", the 1967 approaches by engineers recording LOUD stuff was already a full year into experimentation...... in no small part due to the various blues tracks appearing in vogue ....AND.... that incredible "tonality" that guys like the Yardbirds had captured in Chicago a full year earlier with all the "creamy" lead guitar overdubs by Beck on "Shapes of Things".

This thing with getting new kinds of lead guitar sounds captured was a BIG deal between May 1966 and well into 1968. (Surprisingly as we all remember, the Beatles stayed TOTALLY AWAY from experimenting with these sounds (forget Clapton's appearance on While Guitar Weeps). I always attribute the Beatles lack of experimentation with the new "sounds' as because they now had that BOZO deal with Fender where Fender dumped a few semi-loads of Fender amps to the guys .....bad move imo.

Anyway....

To put this in perspective another way, 1967 was FULL of sonically mediocre stuff... but the raw energy/soul/performances of the song(s) were priority. Jimi Hendrix stuff that appeared later in the year was AWFUL... imo. I mean, that stuff is sonically TERRIBLE. And I'm not talking retrospect. I mean, in mid/late 1967, I thought every track he did was (from an engineering standpoint), simply THE WORST STUFF OF THE YEAR. Regardless of the google-eyed crowd watching him play. So, for "SONICS", there was a lot of mathematically-incorrect techniques............which many of us then ... and kids now... can probably agree to. Or not... doesn't matter.

As ANOTHER OTHER END OF THE SCALE REFERENCE.... pull up something way opposite of the Cream/Hendrix scale... say......Peter Paul and Mary's "Great Mandella", or even "I Love Rock and Roll Music".

Forget the songs.... listen to the sonics.... recorded in the same 6 month period as Cream/Hendrix stuff. You'll notice the PPM stuff is much more even....tame....vanilla....in the green.....um.......maybe even.... "boring" sonically....... sort of like today, right?

When you listen to those extremes in engineering from 1967, at least you can see that the ability was there for an engineer to capture sound in either a clinically clean..... or dirty distorted way.

As far as Tom Dowd, I don't particularly like his approach on everything..... even his Aretha songs. But, I sure wouldn't change anything....... or wish another engineer had been involved like maybe Arif. No way.

Disraeli Gears was an odd sound to listen to... even in 67/68. But there were also plenty of "2013-type-but-back-here-in-1967 squeaky clean" things out there by artists as well. Part of the fun was re-adjusting your ears to the engineering approaches used by your favorite engineers.

On top of everything else, you had, still prevelant in 1967, the "sound" that came from doing the basic tracks, and then five weeks of bouncing tracks down to submixes to open further tracks for further overdubbing.

Another source of "odd" sonics when all was finished.

No kid today has a concept of how to "do" that approach. Plus, no kid has the time to put into that artform. And besides, the results are usually guaranteed to be "marginal" in the sonics department.

And finally...... well.....Layla. That came 8 years later. With twin locked tape machines and the "sound" of the rooms at Criteria. With teeny tiny amps this time rather than Marshall stacks.

I'm not sure how to work that into a Cream discussion.

As an engineer though, I am always SO glad that I was alive (and with my hands on a tape machine) all through this entire run of music evolution from the mid 50s to this moment.

My fav records are the ones that are marginal in some respect.... or are completely over the top when mastered for vinyl 45. Those are the candy recordings. Nobody really knows how to do that from start to finish any more. It is a complete lost art....no.... it's not a lost art.... it's just that for those who know how to do it, there are no artists with enough bucks to pay to have it done. After all, nobody wants to actually PURPOSELY screw up their sound for the sake of a vibe. Or work through a crazy tracking setup with an even-more crazy submixing routine every two hours........hmmm.....

maybe I'll start classes on how to do this sometime in the next few years. Maybe.

Now I have to re-read this to see how far off topic it is.
Old 30th June 2013
  #110
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I just stumbled upon this thread and since Duane Allman is mentioned and the 'Skydog' box set is just sitting on a table across the room, I felt the need to chime in:

HUGE Duane Allman fan here but there are a few thing I don't get: Everybody is always talking about Duane being the greatest electric slide guitarist but while he undoubtely WAS amazing at it, it's his non-slide playing that moves me the most. The major part of his playing on 'Fillmore East' is not on slide and folks need to realize that Duane didn't pick up a slide until about 1968 or '69 and Layla was done in 1970.... The man progressed amazingly fast to say the least.

I mean, the 'Skydog' set is a SEVEN-CD box set, most of it song-based and not consisting of jams and the man was gone at 24 years of age!! His achievements were simply staggering and listening to 'Skydog' is as much about great singers and songs as it is about great guitar playing. Duane was pretty much the one player that established guitar solos on soul records-something that wasn't hardly ever done at Stax, Muscle Shoals, etc

Having said all this, I must admit that I have a hard time listening to the Layla coda... It is really out of tune and especially noticable because of the high register.... My fave slide on the Layla album happens in 'I am yours'. This can bring tears to my eyes, Duane's playing is so emotive and expressive, wow! Duane does the same great job on Boz Scaggs first album, and I really prefer the melodic slide bits to the harder, bluesier variations.

But it took me a long time to really dig the 'Layla' album. Let's face it, the recording quality is pretty terrible. It sounds like solid-state distortion to my ears but it's a sound that Tom Dowd seemed to have liked as I hear the same kind of distortion on 'Disreali Gears' and 'Wheels of fire'.... Only that it is less painful with a Gibson SG/Marshall combo as opposed to a Strat/Champ like on 'Layla'.

The music was incredible but IMO these recordings never were as good as the ones Clapton did in England. 'Fresh Cream' doesn't have many great songs and it didn't capture the Cream live experience- but oh boy that guitar sound was INCREDIBLE! I think it's among Clapton's greatest recorded work on record. The same goes for the Bluesbreakers album.

But I eventually learned to really appreciate 'Layla' despite the recording quality as the music is stunningly great and intense. The music simply transcends the sonics.
Old 30th June 2013
  #111
Gear Guru
The Bluesbreakers album blew my little teenaged mind.
"Hideaway" is to this day one the best tones ever. That album wrote the book for what modern "lead guitar" means. Anybody who plugs a humbucker pickup into a high gain amp owes their tone to that record.
Old 30th June 2013
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
Jimi Hendrix stuff that appeared later in the year was AWFUL... imo. I mean, that stuff is sonically TERRIBLE. And I'm not talking retrospect. I mean, in mid/late 1967, I thought every track he did was (from an engineering standpoint), simply THE WORST STUFF OF THE YEAR. Regardless of the google-eyed crowd watching him play.
You can't be talking about 'Are you experienced' ?! Can you? I mean, this is a recording that still sounds absolutely amazing today - maybe even more so. Jimi's guitar was perfectly captured IMO, raw and intense, warm and dimensional. If that's 'terrible' then that's what I want to be.
Old 30th June 2013
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
I don't get: Everybody is always talking about Duane being the greatest electric slide guitarist but while he undoubtely WAS amazing at it, it's his non-slide playing that moves me the most.
Who is better than Duane at slide? no one is even close except maybe Derek trucks but he is a Duane clone so it doesn't count. Jimmy Page was good as was Joe Walsh and Pat Travers is really really good. I will say the absolute most overrated slide player was hands down Ry Cooder. He is terrible, just noisy and sloppy.

I agree with you on people overlooking Duane's non slide playing. His solowork on Blue Sky and the Fillmore version of Elizabeth reed are just mind boggling good. Even though Clapton's mid 70s - 80s solo was cheezy, His guitar playing with Cream broke new ground.

Clapton in 1966 was ground breaking, not as much as Hendrix was a year or 2 later, but The Clapton approach is perhaps more relative to modern guitar tone than that of Hendrix. Clapton was the first rock god Guitar hero. And he deserved to be. His Style and approach were very aggressive at the time.
He was the first guitar player to really incorporate the stinging singing violin sustain'y guitar solo as we know it today.

Ginger was the first powerhouse rock drummer. Jack Bruce pioneered the walking hard rock bass line. Not mention his aggressive style and use of distortion. Collectively the sound of these three guys individually and collectively is evident in much of today's heavy rock music.

Cream is the most important band of all time as far as hard rock goes.
Hendrix even modeled the experience after the Cream power trio.
Old 30th June 2013
  #114
Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
Who is better than Duane at slide? no one is even close except maybe Derek trucks but he is a Duane clone so it doesn't count. Jimmy Page was good as was Joe Walsh and Pat Travers is really really good. I will say the absolute most overrated slide player was hands down Ry Cooder. He is terrible, just noisy and sloppy.
Where does Lowell George fit in that list?
Old 30th June 2013
  #115
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[QUOTE=therock;9186294

Cream is the most important band of all time as far as hard rock goes.[/QUOTE]

Pfft. What are you talking about? Nickelback.
Old 1st July 2013
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Where does Lowell George fit in that list?
At the very top! I think George had a lot in common with Ry Cooder: Fantastic touch and tone, very strong rhythm chops.

Ry Cooder was fantastic on those early Randy Newman records and he could fit in any context. Lowell George recorded with the Meters, it doesn't get any better than this. The difference being that Lowell George was also an incredibly gifted singer.

I wonder how anybody could hear those Warner Bros records that Cooder did like 'Into the Purple Valley' and think that he's overrated? There is an amazing GUITAR TAPESTRY going with fingerpicked acoustics, mandolin and electric slide. IMO Cooder is one of the greatest rhythm players ever.


But today Derek Trucks is amazing, the precision and control he has is staggering but yet he's completey free sounding.

But getting back to Duane: With all his virtuosity, he wasn't a showoff or 'specialist' playing to a musician's audience. He could fit in any context, he played with Laura Nyro and Herbie Mann as well as with Ronnie Hawkins or Wilson Pickett.
Old 1st July 2013
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Where does Lowell George fit in that list?
he wouldn't be on a list, he was too generic, good artist and producer
but predictable guitar player
Old 1st July 2013
  #118
Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
Who is better than Duane at slide?
Robert Johnson? And he didn't give a crap about intonation!
Old 1st July 2013
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by therock View Post
he wouldn't be on a list, he was too generic, good artist and producer
but predictable guitar player
They were talking bout the guy from Little Feat. Who are you talking about?
Old 1st July 2013
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PRobb View Post
They were talking bout the guy from Little Feat. Who are you talking about?
Yeah I know he was in little feat
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