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Unsigned acts / artist managers / CHANGING industry
Old 16th August 2005
  #1
Unsigned acts / artist managers / CHANGING industry

So...

Back in the 90's and 00's - I would get work from

a) Managers
b) Bands
c) Record companies

Now that so few bands are signed, managers (at least in the UK) have really thinned out. Many have 'given up' or have drifted out of the business.

I think a new model has emerged.

More bands that don't feel the need for a 'beginner' manager.

Bands do the early web marketing themselves

Managers are there, but they are only interested in signed acts, not so much GETTING them signed.

I have probably had this rant before...

It's just that today the penny has dropped - I figured out that having spent the 80's 90's and 00's building up my manager network, it has pretty much turned to dust and disappeared.

I AM still connected with the 'old boy' network and many of the managers that HAVE stayed in the biz are senior players.. but 60& at least - aren't there any more.

I need to hone my skills in dealing directly with band members on the studio booking business side.. it's a different vibe..

Thoughts anyone?
Old 16th August 2005
  #2
Gear Nut
 

Have you noticed this...

It's difficult to find a place (night club or bar) that has live music played by kids. You can usually find Jazz clubs (less and less but still), but you have to make an effort to find live bands playing somewhere where people can see them ect...

The last time I was in the UK this what I noticed. When I took a walk down Camden High Street, I saw the posters for the clubs pasted on the side of the Camden Market, but there were not that many adverts for live bands... the sidewalks are overflowing with young people, but most of clubs are hosting DJs for house or garage, a decade ago this was not the case. The same applies for Paris, Frankfurt, Bruxelles, etc...

DJs don't really need managers or studios until they make it big, they can get by with a promoter and their own network to get hook-ups at big clubs, but even that is ending now... where will go from here... who knows...

Bands can't get signed if nobody can find them and they have very few places to play, when the chance of exposure is narrowed, the old boy network and nepotisim usually (not always) wins over talent... so a lot of good kids never get a listen, and perhaps the starter managers are going away because the effort and/or the opp. to scout talent is not what it used to be .

I don't know where I am going with this... This is just how I feel about it... I love to hear new and progressive live bands in strange settings but it is not in fashion anymore.
Old 17th August 2005
  #3
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

At the AES last year Ron Fair told us that 40% of the major label record business has gone away since it peaked around 2001. You can bet most of what didn't change was catalog sales. When you do the math, it sounds like the sales of most new releases are in the toilet! That has killed investment from labels and combined with Napster, it has killed private investment from people hoping to get paid back out of a label deal.

Pro studios and managers have almost never worked with people who were financing their own recording projects. Problems at the major labels have always trickled down and become big problems to studio owners and producers.

My approach has been to cut my overhead drastically and encourage people to think "way outside the box" as much as they can. I suspect we're more or less back in the record business of the late '40s combined with the exposure problems of the early '20s. What's cool is that we've got global communication so rebuilding the entire industry from scratch may not take all that long. The main thing is that I suspect we can forget about how we've done things since the '70s.
Old 17th August 2005
  #4
Lives for gear
 
themaidsroom's Avatar
 

i like the idea that people can download something, and then be sent a cd or
vinyl copy in the mail......they purchase the intellectual property only once,
pay for formats as needed
immediacy is covered..........
quality is covered at a later date with the physical copy of the work.......
subsequently, the politics of a distributor could be avoided, or could they ?
i don't know?

i know that if you find 10 amazing artists who each had an amazing record
they could make for forty thousand dollars( and you had the 400k +) - and some people who were
not afraid to totally re-think promotion and obviously more $ to do that,
you might be able to start something,

there is definitely something swirling in our midst that's going to be different.....
it would be great if the whole existing structure crumbled..........

pirate satellite radio........

one of the last times i was in tower records, buying vinyl, the only other
person there was my friend steve rosenthal, who owns the majic shop,
nobody else - that big tower at 4th & broadway -
when i moved to nyc in 1986 - there were 25 minute lines to buy cd's..........


be well

- jack
Old 17th August 2005
  #5
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i have only dealt with bands to book studio work. its a nice little network that have setup and most of them know each other in the "circuts" here... and they all talk about their albums and who did them, what they are like to work with. all my work comes from knowing bands and other bands recommendations.
Old 17th August 2005
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
cut my overhead drastically and encourage people to think "way outside the box" as much as they can.
Quote:
there is definitely something swirling in our midst that's going to be different
Quote:
one of the last times i was in tower records, buying vinyl, the only other
person there was my friend steve rosenthal, who owns the majic shop,
nobody else - that big tower at 4th & broadway -
when i moved to nyc in 1986 - there were 25 minute lines to buy cd's..........
Yup, yup, and yup.

Just some other things to ponder. Walmart reports that Music DVD's are beginning to have a big impact on DVD sales. Music DVDs have doubled in sales over the last year. Bands are now beginning to release "dual format" disks - with one side containing DVD 5.1 and video.

People do not buy home stereos anymore. They buy home theatres and there's a demand for product to take advantage of this large AND growing market.

Specifically to the declining pro studio demand - the DUY market is killing you. It's fine to know that your buying skill in a pro studio - but the bands have to believe that - it doesn't seem that they care. The studio business isn't the only industry that is troubled by this. Look at the home improvement market - if the "masses" believed in the value of skill, Home Depot and the like would not be doing as well as they are.

So how do you adapt? There's a couple of business models to watch. But the crux is basically one of two things. Number one, the studio has to offer technology that is not available to the DUY market. Or two, provide services that makes it more economical to record in a proffessional studio than at home <----- how the hell can you do that!!!! As one of the posters said - think outside the box.

The big studio will be a luxury reserved for proven acts that make the cost of recording moot. They will have their place, but it will be a smaller market.

I believe it was Peter Gabriel who said (in response to why he's releasing a concert on DVD in 5.1) in a Rolling Stone interview , to paraphrase: "I'd love the chance to get my music back in peoples living rooms". That's a very telling comment if you can really read what he's saying.

Quote:
It's difficult to find a place (night club or bar) that has live music played by kids. You can usually find Jazz clubs (less and less but still), but you have to make an effort to find live bands playing somewhere where people can see them ect...
I have a Jazz bar, and sold a Rock bar a few years ago. It's a matter of simple economics. If I pay a band $2000 to play for a weekend, I need $4000 in sales just to cover the cost of the band. Then I need more than that to pay my bills and make money for myself. IE the band has to draw an extra 150 people just to cover their cost. Not enough bands have that kind of following. Jazz still works because most of the old timers have day jobs and do Jazz for fun (read cheap) and I don't need fancy PA and lights. Liquor and smoking laws have really cut drastically into sales which just compounds the problem. AND the trend is for smaller intimate venues, which means less seats, less sales.

Looking back, the cycle tells the story for all concerned. In the early '80s our band used to make $5000 - $6000/ week - which was par for the course on the 'A' circuit. Today there are no "week gigs" and the 2 or 3 night gigs pay an average of $1500 - $2000 - IN TODAYS MONEY! Sooooo, less money for bars, less money for bands, less money for studios. And sadly, less interest in this type of entertainment.

The music industry is still trying to figure how to compete in the new entertainment market, and as much as you guys might hate me for saying this - MTV (a twenty year old concept) is the only thing keeping it alive. Music without the visual is a tough sell in a persons living room. OTOH live TV concerts do well, live DVDs do well. If we push harder in this direction, it will definately translate in bigger interest in the live performance.
Old 17th August 2005
  #7
Lives for gear
 

From My Experience

I've been in the biz 21 years with the same band. We've never had a manager, booking agent, lawyer, publicist or record deal. Throughout the years we've had serious interest from Universal, Geffen, TVT and a few others, but nothing ever came to fruition.

Our last CD was critically acclaimed, nationally distributed and we released it on our own label.

When our "buzz" was at it's peak, I spoke to a lot of managers. They kept telling me "when you get a record deal, give me a call". Then the labels kept saying "When you get a manager, give us a call"! The proverbial catch-22.

We've fared pretty well without industry support, earning a living for periods of years off and on.

I would agree that there is a need for a new business model for the industry and groups.

Bands can get their own website developed, offer internet retail, downloads and merchandise.

I think the industry is starting to get wise, but they're a little behind the curve.

In a lot of ways, staying independent has been a blessing. I've never signed away the rights to my publishing and licensing, and we've been in control of our own destiny. Plus, I've managed to raise three sons and stay married. All I need now is the mansion in the Hollywood Hills! LOL
Old 17th August 2005
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Messiah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
The music industry is still trying to figure how to compete in the new entertainment market, and as much as you guys might hate me for saying this - MTV (a twenty year old concept) is the only thing keeping it alive. Music without the visual is a tough sell in a persons living room. OTOH live TV concerts do well, live DVDs do well. If we push harder in this direction, it will definately translate in bigger interest in the live performance.
I don't agree with MTV being any kind of saviour, especially here in the UK, quite the opposite actually. They are doing no favours whatsoever for independent labels, bands, music.
The fact that MTV exists has made the terrestrial TV channels less concerned with music programming because they believe music on TV has now become a cable/satellite specialist category.
If you watch MTV here they put out the same **** 95% of the day (Eminem, Jessica Simpson and some other ****ing product placements). Anyone care to name a UK band MTV has 'broke'? Those MF's typify everything that is wrong with our industry.
How the **** is watching some little pricks having their cars 'pimped', or another prick putting a skateboard ramp into his parents house ('crazee!'...**** OFFF), or a bunch of Welsh pricks stapling their sacks to a desk helping to promote music and keep it alive!? Because, when Eminem stops at about 7pm, that's all MTV shows...
Oh, and WTF is that INXS thing!!!???? **** OFFFF!!!
I loved Janes Addiction, still do, but Dave Navarro is now THE biggest cock imaginable to me...


In the UK we have always had a tradition of good music programs that would promote new music (Old Grey Whistle Test, The Tube, The Word, and many, many more...) and there is currently NOTHING like this, and I think it is due to MTV and the likes (sucking the cock of satan to paraphrase Mr Hicks).

It sucks.


Jules, I agree with you, I know lots of managers who are no longer managing for one reason or another that all signal the same issue at the roots.
Old 17th August 2005
  #9
Lives for gear
 

No argument by me regarding the content of MTV. My point is that the "medium" is responsible for creating demand. Austin City Limits in the US is doing the same thing, but to a much smaller audience, albiet to higher standard.

My point is purely from a business standpoint, I'm not making any judgement on how this affects the artform. Alot of people are trying to make money off of this, but if you want to talk about it from a purely artistic POV - there's nothing wrong, great art is created everyday. It's just the desire for recognition and money that has got people up in arms.

EDIT: I just want to re-enforce my point. Part of Jules title questions the "shrinking industry". My point is that the industry is changing and not nessecarily shrinking. Products marketed to the home theatre are growing, while record sales are shrinking. For eg, Led Zepplin's DVD release is on Video Universe's #11 of all time sales (that includes movies).
Old 17th August 2005
  #10
Okay now Messiah, stop and tell us what you really think....

heh
Old 17th August 2005
  #11
Lives for gear
 
kudzu's Avatar
 

Here in Glasgow, Scotland, UK we have some great live venues (150 - 400 capacities), King Tuts Wah Wah Hut (voted UK's no.1 venue), Nice'n'Sleasys (spawned Belle and Sebastian) , The Bar Fly, Stereo (spawned Franz Ferdinand), The Garage, The 13th Note.....and many more......
There are over 50 pro rehearsal rooms (Ampeg SVT's, Pearl Export, Marshall stacks, Midas desks...etc) all well booked up....100's of bands
Lotsa small indie labels, who are willing to spend £5-10K on an album.....
Its Healthy up here in Jockland thumbsup
Old 18th August 2005
  #12
Lives for gear
 
doug_hti's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
What's cool is that we've got global communication so rebuilding the entire industry from scratch may not take all that long.
Bob,

what do you think is (at least partially) entailed in "rebuilding the entire industry from scratch"?
Old 18th August 2005
  #13
And the sad thing is the diploma mill "recording schools" will keep filling kids heads with absurd fantasies, getting them to run up $40K - $60K in government loans (here in the states, anyhow), and turn them back out on the streets to work for minimum wage or less running for pizza and dreaming of the day when they'll get to set up mics...
Old 18th August 2005
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Cape's Avatar
 

Time's are changing.

Labels tend to want the whole product done and dusted, before they put a dime in these days. We had an A&R guy down the other day to check out a jazz singer, the head of the major label loved the demo aswell.

They didn't want to put a penny into it, not even for the session players they suggested. The manager was old school 35million sales but last success was early nineties, he couldn't understand, the meeting went great but here he was been asked to stump up the recording costs and session musician fees.

What gets me is the label accountants got all scared of the file sharing thing and went crazy. However now they have a great new source of revenue from not just places like itunes but soon selling their video catalogues which were written down as loss not long ago.
Old 18th August 2005
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

My approach has been to cut my overhead drastically and encourage people to think "way outside the box" as much as they can. I suspect we're more or less back in the record business of the late '40s combined with the exposure problems of the early '20s. What's cool is that we've got global communication so rebuilding the entire industry from scratch may not take all that long. The main thing is that I suspect we can forget about how we've done things since the '70s.

This is a great line of thought.....thumbsup


...those that don't know history...
Old 18th August 2005
  #16
Lives for gear
 
doug_hti's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred
...those that don't know history...

can you explain further nathan?
Old 18th August 2005
  #17
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
The main thing is that I suspect we can forget about how we've done things since the '70s.

except the tone. never forget the 70's tone!!


gregoire
del ubik
Old 18th August 2005
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_hti
can you explain further nathan?

...are destined to repeat themselves.
Old 18th August 2005
  #19
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Ya know, for all the years I've been doing this recording thing the coolest records I've made are for the indie artists. Most of the major label stuff I've worked on has either tanked or didn't get to see the light of day for various reasons.

There are FAR more bands dropping $5-10K on a record then bands dropping $50-100K. And 'ya know...the $10K record can be every bit as good as the $100K if you put the same energy into it.

Personally though, I think there's a real need for venues. Supporting live music on every level is key to keeping the music industry healthy.
Old 18th August 2005
  #20
Gear Nut
 
pitman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1
And the sad thing is the diploma mill "recording schools" will keep filling kids heads with absurd fantasies, getting them to run up $40K - $60K in government loans (here in the states, anyhow), and turn them back out on the streets to work for minimum wage or less running for pizza and dreaming of the day when they'll get to set up mics...
Good point! Better off getting an associate degree in business (or something tangible) at college and interning at a studio. Take a fraction of that loan money and buy a small PT rig (or recording set up of your choice) to learn on.
Old 18th August 2005
  #21
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
the $10K record can be every bit as good as the $100K if you put the same energy into it.
Yeah especially when the label expenses 20k on travel (including food, booze and lodge) to check if a certain studio will be acceptable. heh

A fellow I met released an album through a label that sold 50 or 100k copies(I can't remember). The group made NO MONEY. They went "indie" for their second album - it cost them 20k to produce as opposed to 100k. I heard it on the radio the other day and it sounds as good if not better. Anyhow, as mentioned, plenty of the label expenses are BS.

Quote:
Personally though, I think there's a real need for venues. Supporting live music on every level is key to keeping the music industry healthy.
A "scene" can't be forced or contrived. And the bands got to get out there and make a scene. The one's that do - get a following and club owners are happy to have them. Too many of them at home in the basement making cd's and sending them off to CDBABY instead of getting out there and playing. Play for free whatever, just get out there and play.
But if ya gotto tell them that, and it's not in their heart in the first place - it's a lost cause.
Old 18th August 2005
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Kestral's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitman
Good point! Better off getting an associate degree in business (or something tangible) at college and interning at a studio. Take a fraction of that loan money and buy a small PT rig (or recording set up of your choice) to learn on.
I knew someone that taught at one of those music schools and he gave me the exact same advice!

Funny enough, I've been approach by 3 different such schools to teach digital audio. Turned them down of course dfegad
Old 18th August 2005
  #23
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
Yeah especially when the label expenses 20k on travel (including food, booze and lodge) to check if a certain studio will be acceptable. heh

A fellow I met released an album through a label that sold 50 or 100k copies(I can't remember). The group made NO MONEY. They went "indie" for their second album - it cost them 20k to produce as opposed to 100k. I heard it on the radio the other day and it sounds as good if not better. Anyhow, as mentioned, plenty of the label expenses are BS.



A "scene" can't be forced or contrived. And the bands got to get out there and make a scene. The one's that do - get a following and club owners are happy to have them. Too many of them at home in the basement making cd's and sending them off to CDBABY instead of getting out there and playing. Play for free whatever, just get out there and play.
But if ya gotto tell them that, and it's not in their heart in the first place - it's a lost cause.
the older you get, the more playing for free sucks. and then if i want the best players i have to pay them. and then it really sucks. mucho work, negative return....
Old 18th August 2005
  #24
Lives for gear
 
doug_hti's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred
...are destined to repeat themselves.
but can you explain your comments further within the context of the thread?
Old 18th August 2005
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by zabour
Have you noticed this...

It's difficult to find a place (night club or bar) that has live music played by kids. You can usually find Jazz clubs (less and less but still), but you have to make an effort to find live bands playing somewhere where people can see them ect...

The last time I was in the UK this what I noticed. When I took a walk down Camden High Street, I saw the posters for the clubs pasted on the side of the Camden Market, but there were not that many adverts for live bands... the sidewalks are overflowing with young people, but most of clubs are hosting DJs for house or garage, a decade ago this was not the case. The same applies for Paris, Frankfurt, Bruxelles, etc...

DJs don't really need managers or studios until they make it big, they can get by with a promoter and their own network to get hook-ups at big clubs, but even that is ending now... where will go from here... who knows...

Bands can't get signed if nobody can find them and they have very few places to play, when the chance of exposure is narrowed, the old boy network and nepotisim usually (not always) wins over talent... so a lot of good kids never get a listen, and perhaps the starter managers are going away because the effort and/or the opp. to scout talent is not what it used to be .

I don't know where I am going with this... This is just how I feel about it... I love to hear new and progressive live bands in strange settings but it is not in fashion anymore.
Here it is simple: Bars and places that have a liquor licence don't employ live bands, as there are different rules to that. They have to get extra licences, and cannot play after 23.00 h, without those extra licence. The law makes it difficult for young people to "just do their thing". The cards have been dealt. No new licences for live music are given out. This policy originated (here) in the early nineties, when barowners, and local gouvernments tried, and succeeded to stop the mushrooming house parties. Owners of existing bars go with this of course, because it is a way to stop competition. Places that DO have live bands, are easy accessed, geographically and socially are thinly spread. IMO this kills free initiative.
As a DJ, you pretty much don't stand a chance out there, without your own music, and preferrably a resident DJ deal.
From my point of view, having organised many parties, with live music and DJs (now doing a combination) it is the licence thing that kills it.
For barowners, it is a clearcut case. I noticed often they think generally they make the same amount of money when just putting on a cd. people will come anyway. Of course this is not the case.
Old 18th August 2005
  #26
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
A "scene" can't be forced or contrived. And the bands got to get out there and make a scene. The one's that do - get a following and club owners are happy to have them. Too many of them at home in the basement making cd's and sending them off to CDBABY instead of getting out there and playing. Play for free whatever, just get out there and play.
But if ya gotto tell them that, and it's not in their heart in the first place - it's a lost cause.
I know a "scene" can't be forced, but it can be encouraged.

I'm in the metro NY area and there's a real lack of places for bands to play. There's a couple of rooms that do nationals and have locals on weeknights, like the Mercury Lounge, Mexicali Blues, BB Kings etc. but the majority of places are gone. In the last five years places like the Wetlands & CBGB's that at one time encouraged original music have closed their doors. Most of whatever's left is a pay to play situation...the bands get to haul their gear in or use house equipment and play a 45 minute set, and it might actually cost them a couple of bucks...to hell with breaking even.

What we have now are tons of rooms that only book cover bands which makes it almost impossible to play more then once a month, let alone build any kind of reputation that might let them have a chance at playing the bigger rooms. I know one booking agent that would love to book more original acts...but he doesn't want to deal with them unless they can bring at least 50-100 people to a room with a capactiy of 400.
Old 18th August 2005
  #27
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

An artist only sells the butts in seats and the ears they can attract. All the rest is pretty much just bling.

The problem is that there has been way too much bottom-feeding at local venues aka "pay to play." Most people have lost interest in checking out a new live act and this in turn has led to even more P to P cutting most of the middle class and below out of being able to afford a music career.

Hip Hop is a glaring exception because the performers are less dependent on venues and other third parties coming between the artists and their fans.
Old 18th August 2005
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Ol' Betsey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson
The problem is that there has been way too much bottom-feeding at local venues aka "pay to play." Most people have lost interest in checking out a new live act and this in turn has led to even more P to P cutting most of the middle class and below out of being able to afford a music career.
That's a very true statement and I'm afraid I've never really looked at it that way.

Promoters don't care who plays as long as the bands cover their share of the night (ie pay to play) and as such you get A LOT of very dire bands playing every night.

Very few promoters actually TRY and book great shows, build scenes, support the GOOD local talent because they can't be bothered investing the time or the money to let these things develope.

This in turn makes it much harder for people to just 'show up' to their local live music venue and hope to see something not only great, but unexpected too.

R.
Old 18th August 2005
  #29
Lives for gear
 
bunnerabb's Avatar
In America, the licensing laws are a bit different.

If you have as liquor license, you can get a jukebox ( and it's license- renewable annually) and have CD playback from the recordings that your CD rack jobber brings to you.

You can also employ live bands and have them play up until closing time. The viability of the venue for live music is another matter, but you don't need a license forit. You DO need to pay ASCAP and BMI license fees if you employ cover bands, though.

My FOH gig is at a 132 year old bar on a resort island, and we do two shows a day all summer. Mostly cover bands, in a rotating roster, some with an album or two under their belts. We PACK the place as a rule, and a lot of the bands have developed followings who can't wait for the band they like to play the island because of the general atmosphere.

America also does not have the silly-assed "two-in-a-bar" rule that the UK does.

America has all of the ingredients to truly rebuild the regional scenes that have brought bands up to the major leagues, but.. as some here have stated, lack of adequate promotion, organisation and general apathy have stunted the ability to get things going.

The scene where I work is thriving, if geographically limited, but playing our bar is considered a feather in the caps of all of the artists who work here, and it has worked to increase their following, sales and recording exposure.

I also offer a 16 track, live recording service to the bands that play here. I take them straight out of the mic pres, into the box and mix it down for them and deliver a CD/R master, for a small fee.

A couple of bands that play here are using some of my two track board tapes as demos for other gigs, for their band and as individual players for studio work.

And, yeah.. it's vfery important to make it a party.

We throw the best parties, we're the best bar, we have the best bands, the customers support us for it and support the bands, too.

Club owners have to start learning that they can be the hub of a scene and that it is a cachet for theier busines, as well.
Old 18th August 2005
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
but the majority of places are gone.
I suspect the demographics between the US and Canada are similar, but a big big issue is that there are simply less 18 - 25 year olds frequenting bars altogether. A myriad of reasons for this. Number one, there's simply less of them. Secondly, there's more for them to do these days than just go out to the bar. When they do get the itch for a band, they go all the way and drop $100 to see Floyd, U2 or whoever are coming through.

Having said that, this IS the business I am in and we have a new model to try out. I'm not at liberty to let the cat out of the bag but I can say a few things. We won't allow cover bands to play. The focus has to be on original material with the bands we hire. We expect to garner large industry support - IE the music community. It seems to me, it's really the music community that will appreciate this, so why not focus on them to come out? I can't say exactly how we're going to do this, but I will say it's never been done before - well at least on a serious level.
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