The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Yamaha PM1000
Old 14th June 2009
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Yamaha PM1000

Hi, I know this has been discussed A LOT!!!! But, I just purchased a yamaha pm1000 for around $1000.00 I was wondering if I got screwed or not? All the channels work fine. I am mainly looking for 8 channels of good preamps for drums. I am planning on getting a friend to rack and recap 8 of these for me. As payment to him I am giving him the rest of the board. My main line of thought was this: In order for me to get 8 channels of good pres it would cost me around $5000 or more. So for $1000 for 8 channels I was hoping this would be a good deal. Any thoughts, comments, disaprovals, ect....?
Old 14th June 2009
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Marcocet's Avatar
8 channels of racked, powered PM1000 pres for $1000 is worth it if you ask me. I like them a lot. But is it worth the time and effort as well? Who knows.

They used to go for like $300, but then again U47's used to go for just a couple grand. Prices have gone up a lot when it comes to good gear. I don't see why the PM1000 would be excluded.

Either way you'll use and like them, so don't stress it!
Old 14th June 2009 | Show parent
  #3
Lives for gear
 
otobianki74's Avatar
 

contact rodney davis at old world audio if you want information with regard to a great mod on these things.

I just received a custom 16-channel rack case of these puppies from him, most everything is modded/swapped, though the mods were based around keeping the original inductors from the modules.

my rational was based around wanting 16 pres/eq for a reasonable cost per channel as well.

I think a lot of people would be surprised as to how good these things can sound. think tone.

oto
Old 16th June 2009 | Show parent
  #4
God, you mean I've actually been holding on to that old piece of junk for a REASON????? Maybe I'm not a dumb as I thought......

I have a PM1000 16 that was modded for use as a 6 out live monitor console - it used to belong to The Stone nightclub in San Francisco. I always hated the EQs and didn't think much of the rest of the board - and now it's actually worth money????? Cool.......
Old 16th June 2009 | Show parent
  #5
Lives for gear
 

JOHN EPSTEIN.... you are a bit late to the "Yamaha PM100 Party I guess?"

Somehow, someone has started the notion that the mic pres and EQs in those AWFULL pieces of crap are golden.
I have tried to reason with people to no avail.
I see it as the bad side of the internet information highway.

Like you John, I come from the crowd of mixers that had to deal with those sons-of-bitches!
I have mentioned the current "love" of PM1000s to a few of my old guard engineering types who came up through the ranks at Showco here in Dallas and they just laugh and laugh.
These are the guys that used them WHEN THEY WERE BRAND NEW AND CUTTING EDGE.
Their comments are almost identical to yours, too.

Remember that PM1000 serial numbers 001 and 002 were originally owned by Showco and they were used as FOH and monitor consoles for Led Zepplin, Paul McCartney, The Bee Gees, Genesis, etc...
Number 001 is a thirty two channel console and it sits in a road case in a barn at C&W legend Ray Price's ranch/farm in East Texas.
Number 002 is/was a twenty four channel console and was in several Dallas rock clubs between 1981 and 1991.
I have lost track of that console.
I spent hundreds of hours behind those two consoles.

That there was a great sounding mic pre and EQ hidden in the middle of those hulks is impossible for me to believe.
How would you ever know?
On the front end the mic pre had attenuation that was either too low or WAYYYY too hot!
There was no in between, so you either ran the channel in a wimpy sounding mode or with it BLAZING hot with the fader down real low.
Most times people ran them hot and NEVER dared to look at the AUX meter in channel solo mode!
You could crank the EQ all over the place and the sound BARELY changed.
The sliding EQ freq. select switches were ALL sticky9even when new!)
The output was screwy because the four output busses only fed the matrix.
There was no 2-mix or stereo out.
The physical damping on the rotary knobs was so loose that you could blow on the knobs it would change!

To the one guy...
There are many, many miles between a PM1000 and a U47.
I have used both extensively for many years and there are no parallels between them.
NONE!

If I was a heartless bastard and didn't mind deceiving people I could go pick up Ray Price's console for chicken feed and sell the modules.
I already have inquired and they said "Make a fair offer and it's yours."
I could easily double my money, but it is barely worth the hassle and I don't want to have to deal with the 32 channel frame/carcass when the modules are gone.

To the OP... $1K is a fair eneough price.
I'd probably offer that for the 32 channel serial 001 and expect to pay maybe $1500.00 without the Anvil case.
Old 16th June 2009 | Show parent
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
JOHN EPSTEIN.... you are a bit late to the "Yamaha PM100 Party I guess?"

Somehow, someone has started the notion that the mic pres and EQs in those AWFULL pieces of crap are golden.
I have tried to reason with people to no avail.
I see it as the bad side of the internet information highway.

Like you John, I come from the crowd of mixers that had to deal with those sons-of-bitches!
I have mentioned the current "love" of PM1000s to a few of my old guard engineering types who came up through the ranks at Showco here in Dallas and they just laugh and laugh.
These are the guys that used them WHEN THEY WERE BRAND NEW AND CUTTING EDGE.
Their comments are almost identical to yours, too.

Remember that PM1000 serial numbers 001 and 002 were originally owned by Showco and they were used as FOH and monitor consoles for Led Zepplin, Paul McCartney, The Bee Gees, Genesis, etc...
Number 001 is a thirty two channel console and it sits in a road case in a barn at C&W legend Ray Price's ranch/farm in East Texas.
Number 002 is/was a twenty four channel console and was in several Dallas rock clubs between 1981 and 1991.
I have lost track of that console.
I spent hundreds of hours behind those two consoles.

That there was a great sounding mic pre and EQ hidden in the middle of those hulks is impossible for me to believe.
How would you ever know?
On the front end the mic pre had attenuation that was either too low or WAYYYY too hot!
There was no in between, so you either ran the channel in a wimpy sounding mode or with it BLAZING hot with the fader down real low.
Most times people ran them hot and NEVER dared to look at the AUX meter in channel solo mode!
You could crank the EQ all over the place and the sound BARELY changed.
The sliding EQ freq. select switches were ALL sticky9even when new!)
The output was screwy because the four output busses only fed the matrix.
There was no 2-mix or stereo out.
The physical damping on the rotary knobs was so loose that you could blow on the knobs it would change!

To the one guy...
There are many, many miles between a PM1000 and a U47.
I have used both extensively for many years and there are no parallels between them.
NONE!

If I was a heartless bastard and didn't mind deceiving people I could go pick up Ray Price's console for chicken feed and sell the modules.
I already have inquired and they said "Make a fair offer and it's yours."
I could easily double my money, but it is barely worth the hassle and I don't want to have to deal with the 32 channel frame/carcass when the modules are gone.

To the OP... $1K is a fair eneough price.
I'd probably offer that for the 32 channel serial 001 and expect to pay maybe $1500.00 without the Anvil case.
You sound like my father old man, afraid he could actually learn something from his boys
Old 16th June 2009 | Show parent
  #7
Gear Nut
 
oldgreensock's Avatar
 

PM series Yamaha always seems to be "in your face". That may be why they have been quasi-highly regarded in a live environment.
Listen to a PM series channel of any kind in a decent control room, and see if you like the sound. If its something you can work with, $1000 for eight channels ain't bad.

P.S don't expect a transparent sound, those pre's have color that you may love or hate.
Old 16th June 2009 | Show parent
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toro View Post
You sound like my father old man, afraid he could actually learn something from his boys
I have used a lot of gear over the years.
Some of it was great and some of it was a bad.
There have been some pieces of gear that I thought were inferior at the time.
Some of these pieces are now considered classic and great sounding.
Other stuff WAS poorly designed.

Consoles have come along way in functionality since the days when the PM1000s were introduced.
Still, the PM1000 is legendary for it's poor gain structure and layout.
They were difficult to use and inflexible as hell.

How the over-all design could be so bad, but the mic pre and EQ being good or dare say great seems impossible.

The two main functions of the channel (the mic pre and the EQ) were two of the many bad points.
Unless someone came up with better attenuation points it would be hard to evaluate the mic pre.
Unless you modified the EQ (which would defeat the purpose of the whole idea) you get no real tone change.
Even the EQ points on the PM1000 have been considered "wrong" for many years.
The Yamaha engineers really had no idea of what are now called the "classic" EQ points from that era or earlier.

I use two Sphere M1220 mic pre and 930 EQ channels that were from that era (1977.)
Those are VERY good mic pre and EQs.
I also have several UA solid state channel strips that are 1968/69 vintage and THOSE are great sounding mic pres and EQs.
The PM1000s aren't even remotely in the realm of either of those circuits.

Just because something is older doesn't make it good.

...and hey... if a young guy has something worth something to show me I'll accept it.
Convincing me that PM1000s are great mic pres and EQs after I have used them so much already is not gonna' work.
I HAVE RECORDED OFF OF A PM1000 LIVE AND I KNOW WHAT THEY SOUND LIKE.

Have you ever used one?
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #9
Lives for gear
 
CZ101's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
JOHN EPSTEIN.... you are a bit late to the "Yamaha PM100 Party I guess?"

Somehow, someone has started the notion that the mic pres and EQs in those AWFULL pieces of crap are golden.
I have tried to reason with people to no avail.
I see it as the bad side of the internet information highway.

Like you John, I come from the crowd of mixers that had to deal with those sons-of-bitches!
I have mentioned the current "love" of PM1000s to a few of my old guard engineering types who came up through the ranks at Showco here in Dallas and they just laugh and laugh.
These are the guys that used them WHEN THEY WERE BRAND NEW AND CUTTING EDGE.
Their comments are almost identical to yours, too.

Remember that PM1000 serial numbers 001 and 002 were originally owned by Showco and they were used as FOH and monitor consoles for Led Zepplin, Paul McCartney, The Bee Gees, Genesis, etc...
Number 001 is a thirty two channel console and it sits in a road case in a barn at C&W legend Ray Price's ranch/farm in East Texas.
Number 002 is/was a twenty four channel console and was in several Dallas rock clubs between 1981 and 1991.
I have lost track of that console.
I spent hundreds of hours behind those two consoles.

That there was a great sounding mic pre and EQ hidden in the middle of those hulks is impossible for me to believe.
How would you ever know?
On the front end the mic pre had attenuation that was either too low or WAYYYY too hot!
There was no in between, so you either ran the channel in a wimpy sounding mode or with it BLAZING hot with the fader down real low.
Most times people ran them hot and NEVER dared to look at the AUX meter in channel solo mode!
You could crank the EQ all over the place and the sound BARELY changed.
The sliding EQ freq. select switches were ALL sticky9even when new!)
The output was screwy because the four output busses only fed the matrix.
There was no 2-mix or stereo out.
The physical damping on the rotary knobs was so loose that you could blow on the knobs it would change!

To the one guy...
There are many, many miles between a PM1000 and a U47.
I have used both extensively for many years and there are no parallels between them.
NONE!

If I was a heartless bastard and didn't mind deceiving people I could go pick up Ray Price's console for chicken feed and sell the modules.
I already have inquired and they said "Make a fair offer and it's yours."
I could easily double my money, but it is barely worth the hassle and I don't want to have to deal with the 32 channel frame/carcass when the modules are gone.

To the OP... $1K is a fair eneough price.
I'd probably offer that for the 32 channel serial 001 and expect to pay maybe $1500.00 without the Anvil case.
Why do you care at all about the PM1000 if it sucks so bad?
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #10
Gear Maniac
 

I'm loving all the talk. Please keep it up. I must say though....... I have been recording the PM1000 all this week on drums AND........ I must say I am actually impressed. I can here all of what you guys are talking about (good and bad), but overall I like them. The sound is FAT and clear. Now, can I get better pres? You bet!! But, these pres sound pretty dang good. I will say that I can see if you where using this board live it would probably not sound good. Have I used it live? No, so don't bite my head off. haha! The eq IS limited, but again I must say that it's not that bad. The mid range is almost useless but when I look at the alternative to not having any eq control at all, I must say I like it.

Now I have been told that the big factor in mic pres sounding good is the transformors. That said, I am going to have these pres racked (ie. individual transformer outputs installed), and I imagine that is going to make them a little better (depending on the transformers of course).

But, hey what do I know!!! haha
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
I have used a lot of gear over the years.
Some of it was great and some of it was a bad.
Have you ever used one?
i dun have any experience with neves or api consoles. But i'm into that vintage, 70's big punchy sound. killer for drums I'm not into definition, most of the time mixing inside the box i'm seeking less definition. I know the PM series gives me that sound i can't get with a Mackie Onyx or something like that. I'm the proud owner of Yamaha PM 700 and 430.
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #12
Lives for gear
 
idylldon's Avatar
 

As with all gear, here is the bottom line: Does it do what you want it to do? If you answer "yes," then that's all you need to know. Use it in good health.

Cheers,
--
Don
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #13
Frankly, I am astounded that anybody would think that the old piece of vastly overweight junk that I've been hanging on to purely out of nostalgia and a certain historical interest was actually worth using for anything except perhaps a boat anchor. The PM-1000 was beyond any possible doubt one of the worst consoles ever designed - it was as widely accepted as it was solely because there was no competition. The silly thing doesn't even have real faders! The EQ points were selected by a deaf gerbil! It sounds terrible!

Next you're going to be talking about how great the Altec 1220 was....

Danny, my last name is spelled with two "p"s...
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #14
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Frankly, I am astounded that anybody would think that the old piece of vastly overweight junk that I've been hanging on to purely out of nostalgia and a certain historical interest was actually worth using for anything except perhaps a boat anchor. The PM-1000 was beyond any possible doubt one of the worst consoles ever designed - it was as widely accepted as it was solely because there was no competition. The silly thing doesn't even have real faders! The EQ points were selected by a deaf gerbil! It sounds terrible!

Next you're going to be talking about how great the Altec 1220 was....

Danny, my last name is spelled with two "p"s...
Epstein is not about how it sounds, as much as how fast can you make it sound good. lotta people i know use the mixer for tracking electronica, dude if u hate tthe thing so much why not let it go to somebody that actually love the mixer.
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toro View Post
Epstein is not about how it sounds, as much as how fast can you make it sound good. lotta people i know use the mixer for tracking electronica, dude if u hate tthe thing so much why not let it go to somebody that actually love the mixer.
Hey dumbass, at least spell my name correctly!

I happen to own a fairly extensive collection of mixers:

Soundcraft DC2020 32 input with moving fader automation.

Midas Venice 320

Ramsa WRT-820

Mackie 1642

Custom 20 X3 FM productions monitor console w/22 API gold faders and Chaos Audio electronics

Yamaha PM-1000 16 channel modded to 6 out monitor console

Peavey PV-6

Behringer utter garbage.

Probably a couple that I'm forgetting.


In the past I have owned various other consoles and mixers and have worked on a hell of a lot more - from little portable Shures up to monster APIs and Tridents - I'm 59 years old and have been doing sound since 1966.

Do you begin to get the picture? I've forgotten more about mixers than you will ever know. I''ve not only run them, I've been a service tech for one major sound company, one manufacturer, and several large music stores. How DARE you try and rank on me for stating that a piece of junk - WHICH I OWN - is a piece of junk!

Bite your tongue, junior!
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #16
Lives for gear
 

He is offering a specific and relevant opinion on a forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ101 View Post
Why do you care at all about the PM1000 if it sucks so bad?
This is a forum for discussing equipment. He doing just that. What's your problem. I was starting to lust after these "japanese neve's" and now I read an experienced person rubbish them.

Why do you come on this board. To blindly accept praise for equipment and ignore other genuine opinions. You may as well talk to yourself.
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #17
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Hey dumbass, at least spell my name correctly!



Bite your tongue, junior!
Wow slow down with the insults Mr. Eppstain. You're absolutely and utterly wrong.. i see it how i see it. The PM 1000 is one of the best mixers EVER made, you even went as far as getting yours modified no? there most be a reason why. The 1000 rivals mixers costing easily 10 times more, now when you put this mixer against a neve or a api console costing 50, 100 grands than you begin to see the light and the end of the tunnel... i love the mixer for tracking drums and guitars
my taste probably different than yours Jon Epsteino but thats what makes this country so cool no?
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #18
Lives for gear
 
CZ101's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
This is a forum for discussing equipment. He doing just that.
Ask dbbubba about how long it has been since he actually heard a PM1000. Ask dbbubba if he's ever heard a PM1000 channel modded with modern higher uF el caps, Wima films in place of the stock tantalums, NPN's and PNP's replaced with modern low-noise transistors, EQ points modded with films, Wima film bypass caps accross electros, servo direct out from a channel, etc... (thank you Jim Williams, Matt Syson, Brian Roth, Jonk and many others...)

Dbbubba is "discussing" a memory from long ago - and not even a well informed one in the context of upgraded PM1000's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
What's your problem.
Is that a question? I was asking dbubba a question and so far I've gotten no answer. I suppose you could call that a problem, but I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
Why do you come on this board.
To ask questions (?), to learn, to compare, to vicariously live out my gear fantasies through others, and to merrily dispute fallacious arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
to blindly accept praise for equipment and ignore other genuine opinions. You may as well talk to yourself.
I can see the PM1000 sitting next to me and I like it - I like what I hear also.

The last time I heard the pres on this board was 3 nights ago. It's not that I don't appreciate genuine opinions or people with different opinions from mine -- it's that I want to know how their opinion(s) have been formed, especially if it's a negative opinion. And in this case, we've heard dbbubba's opinion over and over on this topic, about how he used to work on these boards a long time ago, etc - as though we live in an echo chamber with dbbubba's posts rattling around every time someone mentions the word "PM1000."

There are quite a few other people on gearslutz that have more nuanced opinions about this board - many "experienced" (to use your words) people.
Old 17th June 2009 | Show parent
  #19
Lives for gear
 
otobianki74's Avatar
 

there are specific mods which will address the design flaws (yes, there is some funky stuff going on with the original design) which a lot of the "haters" seem to quibble about.

to those who insist these could never sound any good, I actually own 16 fully pimped out modules and have to wholeheartedly disagree. for people to trash these for what they originally were is one thing (I can't jump on board as I've never heard them stock), but to say these modded can't sound good is farking ridiculous. especially if you haven't heard them!

btw, I've owned/used the following pres extensively:

avedis MA5
api 3124
api 512c
chandler tg-2
great river mp4
great river nv500
neve 1272

my modded pm1000s easily perform on par with any of these pres, and in some cases would be preferable. the modded eq sounds really good as well. I have no fear manhandling if needed.

if anybody is in the ny area and is curious to hear these, pm me and you're more than welcome to come down and listen for yourself.

if anybody out there wants to setup a shootout that could be fun as well. bring down your 500 series modules and let's plug in and really have a listen.

oto
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
Bolt Thrower's Avatar
 

The following is a post not only about this thread, but also the majority of dbbubba's PM1000 related comments over the years. I share the frustration shared by other posters, and no doubt quite a few lurkers. Drumstud has some pretty big balls asking such a question on GS with only two prior posts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ101 View Post
Why do you care at all about the PM1000 if it sucks so bad?
I wonder the same thing. Whenever someone has the temerity to open their mouths about the relative strengths of a PM1000, he quickly trots out the same old story (and it is very old) about his long experience, how he could part out such desirable consoles for big cash if he wanted -- but he doesn't want to, because 1) PM1000s are as stupid as their fans, and 2) he's such an honest, big-hearted guy.

Those idiot Japanese, and their lame hand-assembled, near-discrete designs with tons of transformers and not an image in the universe in need of that particular color. O pretenders: woe unto he who posts that the PM1000 doesn't suck. From far atop Mt. Olympus, the voice of an elder god booms down: 'OH YES THEY DO! YOU MUST BE IGNORANT! HAVEST THOU ANY EARS AT ALL? AND REMEMBER, I HAVE ACCESS TO SERIAL NUMBERS 001 AND 002!'

(Don't you worry about forgetting this latter detail, as he *will* bring it up again!)

What exactly did Yamaha do to him all those years ago? The console is good enough for "Led Zepplin, Paul McCartney, The Bee Gees, Genesis, etc" and yet the sound quality is "AWFULL" (sic)? There has to be some other reason for his pathetic attitude; as an optimist I choose to believe he isn't just a bitter old fart. Granted, the switchable midrange freqs are kind of lame. But those values can be changed.

That said, I realize this is a forum for discussing gear, and we're lucky enough to have him share his precious opinion. However we also have threads going on where people wonder why the posts are coarsening around here, and folks are getting meaner.

'What in the hell... you like the PM1000? How dare you! Don't you know who I am? You better READ these names I've dropped, and I even imply that some of them are LAUGHING AT YOUR SORRY ASS!'

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba
Just because something is older doesn't make it good.
Given your infalliable word, this clearly applies to engineers as well.

My conclusion: Mean people suck. PM1000s do not.

EDIT: At least he did answer the OP's question in the last few lines of that disdainful screed, and wasn't a 24-karat sphincter in phrasing that part of it. BTW, I should do the same at this point: $1000 sounds like a fair price. Too many people agree these units sound good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Bite your tongue, junior!
Nice.
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #21
Lives for gear
 
rty5150's Avatar
 

i actually want to get a pm1000, too. this thread directly parallels the soundworkshop vs. api thread i started in high end a while back.


rich
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #22
Lives for gear
 
illacov's Avatar
 

I have a pair of PM1000 and a pair of PM700 pres and I most certainly love them.

The PM1000 has all the mods on digital drummer's site and the PM700 is stock save for the Five Fish Audio power supply. The 700 sounds a bit more forward than the smooth buttery modded 1000. After hearing the modded GAP73 files, I'm kind of tickled that a modded PM1000 channel sounds very close to those files.

PM1000 on overheads, bass DI, vocals, guitar cabs, I likes. They sound good as the makeup gain for a summing mixer too!

The PM700 so far has faired very well as a pre for dynamics on guitar cab, vocals and Bass DI. I actually prefer the EQ on the PM700 to the PM1000. The 1000 has very subtle filters unless you really crank them while the 700 is immediate and aggressive.

Both of these pres are quiet as hell, the way my tech racked them up.

My next set of funky junk (being worked on as I type this) is 8 channels of recapped Dynamix 3000 in a sidecar. Getting a Five Fish Audio PSU for these as well, should sound damn good!

Peace
Illumination
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #23
Lives for gear
 

I'm ashamed to read hateful posts like this...

other reason for his pathetic attitude; as an optimist I choose to believe he isn't just a bitter old fart. Granted, the switchable midrange freqs are kind of lame. But those values can be changed.


I don't understand why his opinion get's this reaction. You can simply say you think he is being dishonest or something. But this ageist hateful rubbish only reflects on you.
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
Bolt Thrower's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roman View Post
other reason for his pathetic attitude; as an optimist I choose to believe he isn't just a bitter old fart. Granted, the switchable midrange freqs are kind of lame. But those values can be changed.


I don't understand why his opinion get's this reaction. You can simply say you think he is being dishonest or something. But this ageist hateful rubbish only reflects on you.
That's fair, except to the extent that I and others have been on the receiving end of such derision from him in the past regarding PM1000s. He also does it quickly and consistently. Why? I don't expect you to know or care about this broader discussion, nor do I respond to his every missive. If you read my entire post above, you'll see I also compliment his positive side -- multiple times -- in order to show some balance.

(By the way, in America "old fart" is a colloquialism. Which is not to say that isms are a good thing.)

To clarify, dbbubba's opinion gets this reaction because he delivered it, as usual, with condescension and a smug little twist. The fact is, he goes over the top in trashing gear I like, on one of the most important audio engineering sites on the Internet. Being influential, that could be bad for the PM1000 user community of which I am a member. Therefore I am quite within the bounds he has re-established many times.

GS threads have more than a bit of staying power, and are frequently used in researching gear and maintaining market value. Interested parties should reject his overbearance on the topic -- and BTW, I am *only* referring to that aspect of his writing which is clearly hostile -- instead of having their assessment pushed around by yet another Internet tough guy. If you review my posting record, it is quite clear I'm not some troll. I defend where I feel it must be done, and that's an important distinction. I also do you all the favor of staying out of conversations unless I have something relevant to add. Anyone may disagree, but I still have good faith intent.

Since dbbubba feels so strongly about the issue, and is usually the first mover RE: heavy attacks on the PM1000, it would be much better if he'd offer some quantitative analysis; after all, he cares enough to be all over these threads, and tends to brag about having the knowledge and resources to accomplish whatever he wants. He also takes an antagonistic, prosecutorial tone whereby the burden of proof falls naturally upon him. Instead, however, his MO seems to be taking the path of least resistance and going out of his way to be a dick about it.

That's why I am adding some impedance to this circuit.

I'd never ask for him to be censored; similarly I shouldn't be discouraged from responding in true kind because that is the way of the warrior on Gearslutz. Again, it's not his opinion that bothers me. It's his attitude. I don't have to like it, and I feel free to speak up. My comments are accurate, as those who follow the PM1000 discussions in detail can attest.

Moreover, it was dbbubba (and someone else) who chose to bring up the age issue and use it as a weapon. I'm not just making stuff up, I choose my battles with care, and once again I submit my posting history as evidence.

Apparently you couldn't be bothered to trim off the last part of my quote, where I actually criticize the PM1000 design; from this I can infer that 1) you feel entitled to quote me even though you barely glanced at what I wrote, and 2) you don't seem to care either way about the PM1000.

For the record, I apologize for offending you with my comments.
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Audio Hombre's Avatar
 

sorry but when i hear these mediocre preamps referred to as "japanese neve's" it kind of irks me. it's such nonsense
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #26
Lives for gear
 
otobianki74's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Hombre View Post
sorry but when i hear these mediocre preamps referred to as "japanese neve's" it kind of irks me. it's such nonsense
agreed, mine are fluent in english.
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #27
Lives for gear
 
analogtodd's Avatar
 

American Neve
Canadian Neve
Japanese Neve

Whats the British Sphere?
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #28
Lives for gear
 
CZ101's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audio Hombre View Post
sorry but when i hear these mediocre preamps referred to as "japanese neve's" it kind of irks me. it's such nonsense
You're right. Mr. Neve isn't Japanese. I would guess there has rarely, if ever, been a Japanese person called Rupert. The term is like a tasteless nickname - especially in the genitive... It should be abolished.

"Japaneve" is more playful.

When I "hear these mediocre preamps," I'm actually listening to audio through them - and at those moments, as annoying as the said moniker can be, I'm able to tune it out, completely forget about it in fact.. How a reference to them on forums can replace their actuality is beyond me...
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #29
Gear Maniac
 
Bolt Thrower's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CZ101 View Post
You're right. Mr. Neve isn't Japanese. I would guess there has rarely, if ever, been a Japanese person called Rupert. The term is like a tasteless nickname - especially in the genitive... It should be abolished.

"Japaneve" is more playful.

When I "hear these mediocre preamps," I'm actually listening to audio through them - and at those moments, as annoying as the said moniker can be, I'm able to tune it out, completely forget about it in fact.. How a reference to them on forums can replace their actuality is beyond me...
CZ101, I like the cut of your jib.

Quote:
Originally Posted by josh (from PSW message #94016)
I don't know how anyone would call PM-1000 or PM-2000 "Neve-esque", at least not in terms of tone, or circuit design...I think the reason people called this "Japa-Neve" is because it was a high-quality Japanese console, not necessarily to equate it to a Neve other than to identify that it is of similar sound quality, while not similar in sound character. Most of the color of the PM-1000 likely comes from the transformers, and most of what people hear similar from PM1000, PM2000 and Neve console channels is the characteristic transformer-preamp sound. IMHO anyway. I bet I could take a TL-072 op amp and breadboard it into a databook reference design for 60dB of variable gain with nothing more exotic than standard polyester capacitors, tack an old Yamaha PM-series transformer on the input and output and most AEs would instantly compare it with a Neve. If I added phantom power, an EQ stage, a clip LED and a VU meter, put it in an expensive extruded aluminum rack chassis, I bet I could sell them for $1k/each. Of course if I was really smart and enterprising, I would make a pair of these with no controls whatsoever, only an output transformer, and a bunch of resistors on the front end connected to 24 input jacks and call it a "summing bus" and sell it for $5K.
Old 20th June 2009 | Show parent
  #30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toro View Post
Wow slow down with the insults Mr. Eppstain. You're absolutely and utterly wrong.. i see it how i see it. The PM 1000 is one of the best mixers EVER made, you even went as far as getting yours modified no? there most be a reason why. The 1000 rivals mixers costing easily 10 times more, now when you put this mixer against a neve or a api console costing 50, 100 grands than you begin to see the light and the end of the tunnel... i love the mixer for tracking drums and guitars
my taste probably different than yours Jon Epsteino but thats what makes this country so cool no?
a) No, I didn't get mine modified - it was modified for use as a live monitor mixer at a nightclub when it was still a current model. At the time there were no small format monitor consoles available on the open market.

b) The PM 1000 has what is easily the worst 3 band EQ ever put in a production console, bar none. It is truly horrible. Not only does it have very little effect on the sound, what effect it does have is not particularly useful, due to the fact that the eq points were chosen by somebody who clearly was not a sound engineer, as they don't work in a musical fashion. In other words, they don't sound good.

c) speaking as an audio service tech, which is a job I have done for one major sound company, one musical instrument manufacturer, and a variety of large music stores, the build quality of the PM 1000 is absolutely atrocious. Yamaha used the cheapest components available in manfacturing this console. The lowest quality phenolic circuit board material (not fiberglass like a premium manufacturer - or even an average one), the cheapest carbon resistors, the lowest grade mylar caps, the worst graqde transistors, the lowest quality controls. They were even too cheap to use proper linear faders - the faders are actually rotary pots mounted in a mechanical frame that turns the shafts by friction.


To say that this pile of rubbish rivals a Neve or API is a bad joke. It doesn't even rival a Peavey MKIII. The fact is, Yamaha was able to sell these mixers for one and only one reason - there was no competition at the time. The only other mass produced mixing console available at that time was the Altec 1220 and don't even get me started on what a hunk of garbage that was. The only other live sound consoles available were all custom built jobs from companies like Heil Sound and Tycho Brahe or converted recording consoles (which were quite rare).

Obviously you have never mixed on a real quality console such as an API (the sound company I worked for had one, plus other consoles with API components, one of which I presently own) or a Neve, or you would not make such preposterously silly comparisons.

I own the PM 1000 that I have for precisely two reasons - First, I did monitors for a number of memorable shows in spite of that board, and, Second, I got it extremely cheap - $150, which isn't a bad price for any 16 channel stage monitor console, even one as bad as that one.

BTW, I can't imagine what your drums and guitars tracked through that board must sound like - the EQ points are totally unusable for either. Maybe you're a genius with mic placement?
📝 Reply

Similar Threads

Thread / Thread Starter Replies / Views Last Post
replies: 121 views: 21797
Avatar for gregl
gregl 14th April 2010
replies: 1 views: 1475
Avatar for craigmorris74
craigmorris74 14th January 2007
replies: 101 views: 15892
Avatar for kidvybes
kidvybes 27th September 2012
replies: 130 views: 31056
Avatar for jdurango
jdurango 13th August 2015
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
🖨️ Show Printable Version
✉️ Email this Page
🔍 Search thread
🎙️ View mentioned gear
Forum Jump
Forum Jump