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Phantom power not reliable through patchbay
Old 1st June 2009 | Show parent
  #61
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor999 View Post
This thread is insane.
If it was, then the studios would not be wired like this. Also consoles would not have global phantom power and would not be wired into TT patchbays at all.

Running 48v phantom power through the patchbay is more common in pro studios than its not. The VAST VAST VAST majority of studios run it thru the patchbay.

The ONLY way you are going to hurt something is if you are patching stuff while phantom is on... even then dynamic microphones and modern condenser microphones are very durable in this manner.

Here are the steps for flawless 48v phantom power thru patchbay operation.

1. Turn off phantom power.

2. Patch all connections between preamps and mic lines.

3. Turn on phantom power.

4. Rock.


Then when the sessions over:

1. Turn off phantom power.

2. Unpatch all connections.

3. Go home.


DISREGARD IF YOU CANNOT WIRE YOUR TIE-LINES AND PATCHBAY CORRECTLY IN THE FIRST PLACE.
I completely agree. If you can't figure out how to turn 48v on and off while patching mics around then perhaps you either shouldn't own condenser mics, or should hire a decent engineer to run the room. Handicapping the room is no way to live.
Old 1st June 2009 | Show parent
  #62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor999 View Post
All this "Phantom through the patchbay is bad" stuff is ridiculous. I am not arguing that shorting the connection is not bad. All I am saying is that just like the huge majority of studios operating today, simply having 48v passing through a patchbay is not a problem AS LONG AS the engineer knows what the heck he is doing AND EVEN THEN with modern equipment it is unlikely to cause any harm to the microphones or equipment. Remember guys, transformers do not allow phantom power (dc power) to pass through them.

Simply running phantom through the patchbay will not cause this problem. Honestly to me it sounds like a loose jack or a bad full-normal connection.

If your wiring is good then there are no issues.

I personally think having the inputs to your monitor amps patchable (Ala Trident & SSL style patchbays) is WAYYYY more dangerous than 48v.

Having your Mic Lines patchable is VERY useful when dealing with 96+ mic lines and a 56 channel console and a ton of outboard gear.
Please reread my posts. I have been an engineer and service tech since the early '70s and know whereof I speak. Even if phantom through the patch bay causes no immediate problem over the long term it WILL cause degradation of the contact points and may cause problems with both the console and the microphones.

That being said, PLEASE, BY ALL MEANS, DO IT! It'll just mean more business for service techs such as myself........
Old 1st June 2009 | Show parent
  #63
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

You know, some of these posts answers are rather condescending and in no way take into consideration what the OP 's stated situation is, and some are even posted like this is the high end forum, which this isn't. You need to tone it down and either contribute respectfully regardless of the OP's situation or you just aren't much improvement on dead silence.
Old 1st June 2009 | Show parent
  #64
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robmix's Avatar
I think you're seeing the frustration of engineers who've seen and worked with phantom in patchbays for many years, in dozens of studios without a problem. This topic comes up often on GS, and there is always the "don't do it" crew. Yet how many thousands of SSL's, Neve's, API's, MCI's, Sony's and other consoles have been installed with fixed patchbays and phantom power routed through them with no ill effects ?

There's no reason you shouldn't or can't develop standard operating procedures to prevent damage to gear in the studio.
Old 1st June 2009 | Show parent
  #65
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robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Please reread my posts. I have been an engibeer and service tech since the early '70s and know whereof I speak. Even if phantom through the patch bay causes no immediate problem over the long term it WILL cause degradation of the contact points and may cause problems with both the console and the microphones.

That being said, PLEASE, BY ALL MEANS, DO IT! It'll just mean more business for service techs such as myself........
How do you define long term ?
Old 1st June 2009 | Show parent
  #66
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robmix View Post
I think you're seeing the frustration of engineers who've seen and worked with phantom in patchbays for many years, in dozens of studios without a problem. This topic comes up often on GS, and there is always the "don't do it" crew. Yet how many thousands of SSL's, Neve's, API's, MCI's, Sony's and other consoles have been installed with fixed patchbays and phantom power routed through them with no ill effects ?
There's no reason you shouldn't or can't develop standard operating procedures to prevent damage to gear in the studio.
I get that.

It seems to me that some people, with the gear they have on hand as described, shouldn't do it. I just don't see where it's a benefit to this particular person in this particular situation.
Old 1st June 2009 | Show parent
  #67
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analogtodd's Avatar
 

I'm firmly in the "just because we used to do it, doesn't mean its right" camp.

XLR patch makes more sense to me anyway, so thats what I decided to do.

The question will continue to come up again and again.... if there was only some way to search and get the answers...
Old 2nd June 2009 | Show parent
  #68
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyt View Post
I'm firmly in the "just because we used to do it, doesn't mean its right" camp.

XLR patch makes more sense to me anyway, so thats what I decided to do.

The question will continue to come up again and again.... if there was only some way to search and get the answers...
Ha ha ha, well, don't feel bad, you have friends in low places now, I have gear patched the same way.
Old 2nd June 2009 | Show parent
  #69
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duckyboard's Avatar
 

curious...

out of curiosity...

how do you guys with xlr bays have them interfaced with your studio tie lines, pre.amps, and other patchbays?
Old 2nd June 2009 | Show parent
  #70
Quote:
Originally Posted by robmix View Post
How do you define long term ?
Can't really say, as it depends on the amount of use, and therefore wear, that the gear sees.The more frequently a contacted is subjected to arcing, the sooner it will wear out. Maybe months, maybe years....... It also depends on the actual amount of current in the arc.
Old 2nd June 2009 | Show parent
  #71
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckyboard View Post
out of curiosity...

how do you guys with xlr bays have them interfaced with your studio tie lines, pre.amps, and other patchbays?
1/4" balanced outputs are in the patchbays, 1/4" balanced inputs are also in the patchbays, if there is an xlr input that needs o stay an xlr input, it can be changed via a chord with xlr to 1/4" trs, both directions. I almost never use these pieces in this manner. They usually go from a mic to the pre, to any other needed piece in the chain on the way in, straight to the machine and only monitor the return through the board.
Sometimes I use the board pre's, often, but, I never route them anywhere but straight to the machine. I don't use tie lines now. If I was in a place where I needed them, I would.
Old 2nd June 2009 | Show parent
  #72
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nosebleedaudio's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Can't really say, as it depends on the amount of use, and therefore wear, that the gear sees.The more frequently a contacted is subjected to arcing, the sooner it will wear out. Maybe months, maybe years....... It also depends on the actual amount of current in the arc.
The current will be limited to 7ma (6.8K resistor).
I mentioned this a while back, and that is some mic pres send a short DC pulse thru the mic when phantom is activated, with a dynamic mic...

The Focusrite pres for one, my point is some say that 48V thru a bay sends a short pulse of DC to a dynamic mic, SOME pres do the same REGARDLESS of if it's an XLR or a straight cable...
Something to consider...

I feel keep it off till needed is a good practice...
Old 2nd June 2009 | Show parent
  #73
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analogtodd's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by duckyboard View Post
out of curiosity...

how do you guys with xlr bays have them interfaced with your studio tie lines, pre.amps, and other patchbays?
The OUTPUT of any pre is treated like any other line source. It just comes up on my tt patchbay.
Old 2nd June 2009 | Show parent
  #74
Here's the thing a lot of studios had patch bays that were built into the consoles, and rather than spend anymore on patchbays they left it that way. Can you work that way, of course you can, and if you cant then you shouldn't be in this business. Is it the best way, hell no, make an XLR bay and then you don't have to sweat turning the phantom off while you repatch. I've worked in a lot of places that had the mic patching in the bay and for a while I even had that here, it wasn't the end of the world but I'm much happier with an XLR patchbay for the mics.
The upside is you get to fill all of those mic panel patch points with more gear, what can be bad about that?thumbsup
Old 2nd June 2009 | Show parent
  #75
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab View Post
Here's the thing a lot of studios had patch bays that were built into the consoles, and rather than spend anymore on patchbays they left it that way.
Exactly. Those of us who were lucky enough to start out not using store-bought consoles mostly feel they were a pretty big step down in quality. Unfortunately the transition between four and 24 track happened too fast and the future was too uncertain for most studios to continue building their own consoles.
Old 2nd June 2009 | Show parent
  #76
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memphisindie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab View Post
Here's the thing a lot of studios had patch bays that were built into the consoles, and rather than spend anymore on patchbays they left it that way. Can you work that way, of course you can, and if you cant then you shouldn't be in this business. Is it the best way, hell no, make an XLR bay and then you don't have to sweat turning the phantom off while you repatch. I've worked in a lot of places that had the mic patching in the bay and for a while I even had that here, it wasn't the end of the world but I'm much happier with an XLR patchbay for the mics.
The upside is you get to fill all of those mic panel patch points with more gear, what can be bad about that?thumbsup
If you don't use a patchbay at all, then what? Dang, I suck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Exactly. Those of us who were lucky enough to start out not using store-bought consoles mostly feel they were a pretty big step down in quality. Unfortunately the transition between four and 24 track happened too fast and the future was too uncertain for most studios to continue building their own consoles.
It isn't too bad anymore, some of them are pretty nice now, but you have to mod the snit out of them, like building your own, but, not.
Old 4th June 2009 | Show parent
  #77
So, in the end, I just got a little 3 channel, straight through XLR patch bay to put in front of the pre-amp inputs, which I'll just mount to the side of the desk. I'll still have to patch in the DI by hand from around the back into this little patch bay, but it'll be a bit easier since I can get to it from the front at least. This seems like the least worst compromise, and I know I'm in any way compromising the signal quality.
Old 5th June 2009 | Show parent
  #78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab View Post
Here's the thing a lot of studios had patch bays that were built into the consoles, and rather than spend anymore on patchbays they left it that way. Can you work that way, of course you can, and if you cant then you shouldn't be in this business. Is it the best way, hell no, make an XLR bay and then you don't have to sweat turning the phantom off while you repatch. I've worked in a lot of places that had the mic patching in the bay and for a while I even had that here, it wasn't the end of the world but I'm much happier with an XLR patchbay for the mics.
The upside is you get to fill all of those mic panel patch points with more gear, what can be bad about that?thumbsup
Patchbays built into the console generally do NOT have phantom running through the patchbay.
Old 5th June 2009 | Show parent
  #79
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Mike Brown's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Eppstein View Post
Patchbays built into the console generally do NOT have phantom running through the patchbay.

?

Except for SSL, Trident..... etc etc etc

I have never had a problem with the Trident 80B bay that has pretty much had the global phantom power button switched on for the past 15 (20?)+ years...

Nor with the SSL4000 series.... or the API Legacy... or a Neve VR....

I hear the tech's at Berklee do a lot of repairs on all their TT bays with mic lines.....
Old 5th June 2009 | Show parent
  #80
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mdjice's Avatar
 

I do it all the time with my patchbay on the console. all you have to do is remember as mentioned to turn phantom power off before plugin or unplugin cables .
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