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RE-AMP Latency!?
Old 9th August 2005
  #1
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joaquin's Avatar
 

RE-AMP Latency!?

Hi. I'm re-amping a bass DI, and since in My setup, the best DA is from a Focusrite TT Pro, I'm coming SPDIF out from the 002 in to the TT Pro, and from there analog in to the Radial X-Amp (great box by the way) and in to the Bass amp (Ampex), wich is Miked with a D6 and in to a RED1 wich goes to the the Best AD that I have, an ISA 428, ADAT back in to the 002...quite a Trip!! I check for the best Phase coherence before recording, but, The thing, is that the new recorded signal is a fair amount of samples behind the original one.
How would should I deal with this issue, or is not an issue at all. I mean, the bass sound amazing, and I'm also recording the room with a U87 thru a VT2...
I haven't listen to it carefuly, but my first impression, apart from the FAT sound, is that there may be some phasyness to the full sound. I though about moving the files to match, but since I'd already decided the best Phase alternative already... just do not know!?
when I get the Time, I'm going to expriment and basically do some critical listening, but, would like to know from your experience what should be the best approach.
Thanks....................Joaquin.
Old 9th August 2005
  #2
Gear Guru
 

what I usually do is use the pencil tool to draw in two short ticks at the beginning of the song (watch the volume) - those ticks come out of the amp and get recorded and that makes it super easy to line up the waveforms after reamping. You can usually look up the round trip delay in your software's manual but the real world reamping delay may be a bit different depending on how far the mic is from the speaker, for example.


Of course getting the amp and DI tracks lined up "perfectly" is not always the best sound.

Time slipping the room mic is too much, IMHO, but some people do it.
Old 9th August 2005
  #3
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

The software manual may tell you something about its own latency (?), but nothing of the latency each of your digital converters is causing...could be several ms all total. The idea of lining it up visually to me seems the best, as this is what I do when blending two tracks like that. Just zoom in and drag the sucker...!

War
Old 9th August 2005
  #4
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joaquin's Avatar
 

Hey Thanks Joe & Warr!! My problem is that I'm not quite understanding the Value of trying to achive the best phase coherence prior to recording the signals if I'm going to end up shifting them!?...I may have a missunderstanding about Phase issues. I know that the Ear, is ultimately who's going to decide, but....
Thanks................Joaquin.
Old 9th August 2005
  #5
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

I don't think you're going to enjoy the sound of a bass guitar out of a phase relationship with itself...but maybe? Shifts that small (just a few ms) can really be a negative, trying larger shifts may open up the sound all together and phase won't have as much to do with it across the broader spectrum (more of a chorus effect).

One thing's for sure, it's going to take some experimenting.

War
Old 9th August 2005
  #6
If you use a COPY track to send out you can shift that FORWARD - so that the RECORDED track is in the right sounding place.

Classsic thing to do is to flip phase and adjust it for the THINNEST sound, then flip it back for the deepest - and use that..

Try a search on the words RE AMP or REAMP or phase

Good luck!

Old 9th August 2005
  #7
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquin
Hey Thanks Joe & Warr!! My problem is that I'm not quite understanding the Value of trying to achive the best phase coherence prior to recording the signals if I'm going to end up shifting them!?...I may have a missunderstanding about Phase issues. I know that the Ear, is ultimately who's going to decide, but....
Thanks................Joaquin.
You just hit on one of the absolute worst things about the host based DAW revolution: Phase coherent tracks do not really, truly exist. There is really no way to get the relationship you labored over (or not) to come back exactly the same during playback as far as I know. The fact that you have labored over your mic placement and then the system just kind of tosses the audio wherever it needs to is just SO unacceptable. The ways around it exist of course... Frustrated me a lot when I got an 001 right when they came out. I was like "awesome! I can get some editing done right at home! I can choose takes and stuff! That stayed true, but I couldnt believe what I was hearing, like: "did we really print the guitars like that?" or, "did I forget to even listen to the relationship of the OH to the kick?"

When I looked into it, it turned out that my 001 even had DIFFERENT amounts of latency depending on the odd even pair i was listening to! Like, 1-2 was slightly different that 3-4 and so on. Crazy.

Engineering IS phase relationships, so I wound up saving for an HD3 rig right when they came out.....
Old 9th August 2005
  #8
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joaquin's Avatar
 

Hey Thank you everybody for the Ideas I'll do some research about it and let you know what was my best solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Hamilton
Engineering IS phase relationships, so I wound up saving for an HD3 rig right when they came out.....
............... heh

...I think that the Automatic Delay compensation work mostly for inputs and outputs of the same numbering, like in an Insert situation, though I'm not sure. If that is the case... is still useful with a patch bay configured for your OD. Also I Think it only works If your are using Digidesign interfaces...I can live with that too.
.......I just hope Jhony B dosen't get a hold of this thread heh
Old 9th August 2005
  #9
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joaquin's Avatar
 

I think that for my Guitar Re-Amps, I'm just going to get the best Phase coherence between the Mics at the time of re-recording (2 at the Amp screen and 1 for the Room) and just pull them in place relative to the Mic used for monitoring at the time of basic's tracking. Obviously(!?) the room mic will keep it's natural distance related delay.
For the bass, since I only have the DI signal, I'm just going to listen and decide.
I will also try to record as much of the Band Live. I know that the AD conversion in my ISA428 has a small delay relative to the analog Inputs in the 002...will deal with it later.
"there's no problems...only solutions" J.L.
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