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Who does DAW mixes without faders ?
Old 7th August 2005
  #1
Lives for gear
 
andre tchmil's Avatar
 

Who does DAW mixes without faders ?

I'm interested to hear if there are people working in a professional way with a DAW but without any kind of fader control.Just mousing and writing automation on the screen.
I mean large track counts , rock productions.
Old 7th August 2005
  #2
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Ziggy!!'s Avatar
 

Sounds like changing gears without a clutch... or rather driving a car only in first gear
Old 7th August 2005
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andre tchmil
I'm interested to hear if there are people working in a professional way with a DAW but without any kind of fader control.Just mousing and writing automation on the screen.
I mean large track counts , rock productions.
+1

I am mixing entirely with a mouse right now...and I LIKE it. In fact my Digital mixer is up for sale...It is either Central Station or a Mackie Onyx for inputs (Master link, Monitors etc.) But still mixing ITB.

Large track counts? Dunno...these are running typically 35 tracks (not counting returns). Not too big not too small.

P&B,
Old 7th August 2005
  #4
azz
Gear Head
 

1 mouse is a hell of alot cheeper than 1 mixer. I meen dose haveing a DAW mixer realy inprove the mix? or is it just a luxury thang?
Old 7th August 2005
  #5
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andre tchmil's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy!!
Sounds like changing gears without a clutch... or rather driving a car only in first gear

dunno, since you already work in a non traditional way with a DAW, compared to working with tapes and desks etc .
Old 7th August 2005
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
allbaldo's Avatar
 

I've been mouse mixing for the last year, and while it's taken me a while to get used to, I'm comfortable with it now. I can't justify buying a controller when I've got so many mic's and pre's that I want first. Someday, I'm sure I'll get a Command * or something, but it's not hindering my work not having one. It'll be a luxury item when I do get around to it.
Old 7th August 2005
  #7
Gear Head
 

I use object based mixing in Samplitude.I can't imagine going back
to mixing any other way.Using a mouse and keyboard shortcuts i can
really fly through things.

This is for rap/R&B productions but I track counts can get up in the 60s

Scott Alger
Old 7th August 2005
  #8
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i do both.... when i need organic work like riding vox or guitar solos for a song, its via a mackie control and i wouldnt have it any otherway.

if its VERY tight kind of work, ear candy panning comes to mind, i draw it in. it takes WAY longer to do it this way but its more accurate.
Old 7th August 2005
  #9
Gear Addict
 

One thing I miss since I gave up my control surface is the ablility to mute/unmute channels simultaneously (A/Bing for example).

Tim
Old 7th August 2005
  #10
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

I do both, sharing duties with a Mackie Universal also. I like pushing faders into a mix...it's the way it's supposed to feel in my opinion AND helps me concentrate on the sound I'm getting in a more natural way (I started my first little studio with an 8 track reel to reel and a mixer so it's how I came into recording). Mousing around bothers my wrist on occassion though too.

I use the mouse for things like:

"Hey, we want those two words at the end of the chorus to come way up and put some more reverb on it man..."

it's way easier to mouse that than to do several runs with the Mackie trying to nail it right. Plus you don't always return the fader to the right spot after the move, easier to see when mousing (Nuendo 2 guy here).

War
Old 7th August 2005
  #11
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Isn't there an automation mode in Nuendo where the fader returns to it's previous position after you release it? This is 'Touch' mode in Logic I believe.
Old 7th August 2005
  #12
Do you mean 'virtual faders' -- as in real-time fader riding with the mouse? I never do that. Using envelopes is so much more straightforward for me. (I suspect you mean working without a control surface. That would be me.)

I've been recording since I was a little kid and started doing it professionally back in the 80s. Obviously, I came up on analog gear. And, even when I moved to a PC based DAW in '96, I was still running submixes out my 8 ch interface to use my compressors and fx boxes and mix with my MIDI hardware outputs, until around 2001 when I went ITB. (I still have a 24 ch board, and a chunk of outboard boxes, mind you.)

With regard to using envelopes and waveform displays -- I've been reading wave form displays since the early 90s. When I was doing radio doc production work back then, I got so I could pick out a given voiceover phrase by its shape (at least a lot of the time)... I know my way around a waveform display pretty well at this point.


I find the single best thing about working in ITB is 'automation.' I used to drive myself nutty mixing. I could mix a song all through the night -- often ending up with a mix at 5 am that sounded utterly horrible compared to the first couple from 8 or 9 pm the night before.

The ability to pull a whole project up, right where I left off... that's what it's all about. It wouldn't hurt to have a decent control surface -- but I'm not rushing out to buy one.

I'd be a lot more likely to beef up my preamp locker. (Not, that I have an actual preamp locker or that anyone would ever bother actually locking the ones I have up. You know...)
Old 7th August 2005
  #13
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

I use faders with the automation off, I draw automation because it's faster for me.
I have a control24, the other controls speed up my editing and navigating, I like them more than the faders. My clients like the faders. I don't like the fader's noisemaking antics that makes me think I may have to go and cleanup another edit, timewasting diversion.
It saves alot of time to use the dedicated controls for editing and using plugins, I can flip between different channels or plugs on the same channel very easily and the control24 sends mode is great for getting your affects levels right quickly.
The faders are the things I use the least. in fact if I go for a Dcommand (if they think about dropping support for the C24 and I really need to upgrade to something now unforseen) I may not go for the expansion thingy.
Old 7th August 2005
  #14
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cdog's Avatar
I'm 100% mixing ITB with a mouse now. I had a Mackie Control Universal and Expander and sold them after about 6 months. When I need to do precision rides, I use the faders on my Kurzweil 2500 keyboard. The faders not quite as smooth feeling as the MCU, but midi data is midi data.

I think I'm comfortable with it mainly because when I switched from analog to DAW recording on a PC there were no control surfaces, and I have always been very comfortable using a mouse and keyboard for tasks that require dexterity (Battlefield 2 anyone???).

Also, using the MCU never allowed me to totally turn off the keyboard and mouse, like an ICON would. I was always naming things, opening plug ins, tweaking parameters using the mouse - that it was sort of silly to then just move a real fader. Half the time I would just move it with the mouse anyway - its just faster for me, the fact that it is not physical or that I have to stare at an LCD monitor does not bother me one bit.

It looked pretty cool though with all the faders moving around during a busy mix!

I've been paring down my gear to "just what I need".... so this is all part of that philosophy. No outboard, no acessories.... just my mics, mic pres, AD16X, DAW, monitors, DAC, thats it. I've been spending the $$$$ on musical instruments and am much happier.
Old 7th August 2005
  #15
I do!

(this week)

My controller is in for repair!

Old 7th August 2005
  #16
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paultools's Avatar
 

3 years no faders
Old 7th August 2005
  #17
no ssl yet
Guest
NO FADERS HERE

I do it daily with no faders, but couldnt survive without a track ball (specifically Kensington turbo mouse pro wireless with a 9 ball in it)
Old 7th August 2005
  #18
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I'm mixing 100% with a mouse. At first I found it tedious and awkward but after 7 years or so, it's just what I do. Cubendo's automation is pretty painless to draw in quickly and accurately IMO.

Funny thing is, when I'm tracking, I cant stand doing monitor mixes ITB. Drives me outta my mind. I ALWAYS use discrete outputs to my console (ghost32) for ALL monitor duties while tracking. More bass in the drummer's cans....no problem - reach out, turn a knob, done.

-Z-
Old 7th August 2005
  #19
Gear Head
 

Ditto.
I only got into this whole recording thing 5 or 6 years ago, so I never find myself itching to touch faders (unless they're the analog kind).

Every control surface I've ever used just seems to present itself as an abstraction of the mouse and keyboard. With larger track counts, the fader banks keep sloshing around with whatever channel you want to be automating, ergo you gotta keep re-orienting yourself with where you are. You know, physically, the ld vox were on the 17th fader, and now I'm working with something else, they're on the 9th, or whatever! (Here, I'm thinking about the Control 24)

Unless you've got as many faders as you've got channels, all that diddling around is horrendous. And controlling the plugins with the surface--not into that either. If you've got a million plugins, or if the parameters of the selected plug don't follow brief, standard naming conventions, that's a real mess too.

Of course, I'm sure some of this can be worked around and it works great for some folks--but they're morons! fuuck
Old 7th August 2005
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
2Low's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Bird
Unless you've got as many faders as you've got channels, all that diddling around is horrendous. fuuck
Old 7th August 2005
  #21
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kudzu's Avatar
 

Mixing ITB, no faders here, but have a FW1884 with two FE8's....comes in handy when my wrist gets sore....but to be honest my head gets busted 'round about the same time as my wrist......Control surface mainly for estetics....clients like to see @ least 24 faders ........
Old 8th August 2005
  #22
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I rarely even touch the controller while mixing.
Maybe if it had 48 faders I'd use it more.
It feels like playing a guitar with one string and hitting a button for the next.
Switching banks is just not the same.
I love the feel and ergonomics of a good analog desk.
Everything is right there in front of you.
When I mix ITB I probably use the mouse for 99% of the work.
Old 8th August 2005
  #23
Gear Addict
 
Prickstein's Avatar
 

Mouse guy here untill I can afford otherwise, but a controller is not high on my list of priorities.
I would rather spend money on monitoring and pre's and mic's and compressors and plug ins and cables and..... you know what I mean.
Old 8th August 2005
  #24
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When I mix ITB it's always with the mouse. I work much faster than using the HUI mode on my d8b which gives comprehensive control over 8 ch's at a time.

Until you get accustomed to it it can be distracting.

When mixing ITB I find clicking nodes for automation much better than actually using a fader. Of course there are those times when you want to grab an on-screen fader to make some "musical" moves. For getting static levels for verse, chorus, bridge etc, nodes win hands down.

Lawrence
Old 8th August 2005
  #25
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PlugHead's Avatar
 

Mouse mixing for 5+ years: even with a digital board in HUI emulation (DA7) I still prefer mouse mixing, tho I will mix out to an analog console, time and budget allowing...

I've never been totally enamoured mixing with a mouse, but it hasn't cramped my style enough for me to stop - IOW - it'd be great to have total fader control and tactile control of EQ/comp/outboard parameters, but - I'd rather spend my bread on things that'll make my tracking/mixes SOUND BETTER, and leave the little things like control surfaces to be considered in the very distant future...

YMMV,
Old 8th August 2005
  #26
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the1Hub's Avatar
 

started with a mixer but i found that it got in the way. the mouse/keyboard is so much more powerfull then the universal ctrl/oo2/command 8 type units. it was just to slow having to switch between the two. if i could afford it at home i would like to have a pro control (32 ch) with an edit pack for the best of both worlds.
Old 8th August 2005
  #27
Gear Nut
 

I had one of those Mackie HUI things...never even touched it...was a waste of $800...I have worked on a Command 8, and Control 24...but I just prefer keyboard and mouse...

The only thing I would ever really use the board for was vocal rides :(
Old 8th August 2005
  #28
Lives for gear
 
T_R_S's Avatar
What's a fader?
Is that "Darth Fader"?
Did he not die in episode 3?
Old 8th August 2005
  #29
Gear Head
 
soundeslutz's Avatar
 

just using a mouse for now...i want a mixedlogic 24...im a luxury guys
cheers
Old 8th August 2005
  #30
Lives for gear
Working without faders is like having one hand tied behind my back.
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