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SHOULD I GET PRO TOOLS HD
Old 6th August 2005
  #1
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jerdude's Avatar
 

SHOULD I GET PRO TOOLS HD

Can i work for labels on big projects without having Pro Tools HD?

My current system is based around Nuendo, 3 Uad-1's and system called PARIS that i use for summing.... i have some outboard stuff 2 nice eq's and compressors... but not much.

I have mixed only 2 projects for labels... but both of those in the last 6 months. I hear through the grapevine that people are noticing my work.... in fact i got a call the other day from a very well respected mix guy who works on an SSL and mixes stuff many of you have prolly heard of... he heard some stuff that i mixed for an artist demo/pitch and was really complimentary.

I am working on another project right now for a well known singer/artist... the producers love my mixes and if the label doesn't want to get a name guy.... then i am on the record.

I am just trying to give you guys an idea of where i am at right now in my career.

My question is.... Does getting PT HD make me more attractive to producers and labels?

Or do people only care what the end product sounds like?

I have a whole other issue with making myself more attractive to the "system". I don't really want to get into all that. I suppose its way to early in my career to be worried about "selling out". I just don't want to be one of those guys who takes everything that comes down the pike just so i can "get in" with the right people. But yet i want to make money at this... preferably lots of it. I am rambling now.

any words of wisdom??
Old 6th August 2005
  #2
Gear Addict
 
usamike's Avatar
 

Only if you can afford it

I know a guy who does Major label stuff w/Nuendo on a PC. PT HD is awesome but very expensive. If you have the business to pay for the rig, you'll be very happy, but don't put yourself in a $15K (plus plugins) hole expecting the work to come rushing in.

Good luck,

Mike
Old 6th August 2005
  #3
Gear Head
 
Quigley's Avatar
 

From what I've observed, yes. For some reason that's been the recording industry norm for the past few years. The only advantage I can see to it from my point of view is that it integrates really well with Avid video editing software.
Pro Tools is not that hard to learn if you know Nuendo. I happened to learn Pro Tools first, but I'm a Cubase convert at the moment.
To sum it up, when people hear the words 'Pro Tools' they think 'professional'.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Slutz.
Old 6th August 2005
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
GearGeek's Avatar
 

I am also a fellow Nuendo user and I love it! I've been using Steinberg since it was on the Atari. I also worked on Pro Tools and it is very good but I prefer Nuendo.

That being said, there is a certain awe about Pro Tools that clients love. When a prospective client approcahes me about a production, one of the first questions they ask is "Do you have Pro Tools?" It's not their fault, that's the only DAW they know. When I tell them I work on Nuendo they give me a blank stare. Also, I always have people wanting to bring in hard drives and open up Pro Tools sessions on my computer. I can do it, but it's a little more time consuming for me since I don't work on that platform.

But I guess the bottom line is your work. When someone hears a finished product on a cd they could care less which program you used, as long as it sounds great. I visited the Steinberg booth at this years NAAM show and they had several guest speakers who were are all major label producers. They work on nothing but Cubase and Nuendo. To each his own.
Old 6th August 2005
  #5
Gear Maniac
 
cfjis's Avatar
 

You can do great work with most any platform, assuming you know what you're doing...

BUT, Pro Tools is the industry standard. Clients want it. It makes you more compatable with other studios and engineers (not to say you can't be compatable using another platform... but having PT will make it easier). And, you won't have to go through that whole 'I know this isn't PT, but it does everything PT does and sounds just as good' thing with the clients.

I think having PT HD is worth it... if you've got the dough.

(Digidesign still sucks... but, having PT is still a good thing)

Good luck,
CJ
Old 6th August 2005
  #6
Lives for gear
 
doug_hti's Avatar
 

ProTools is a great asset from a compatibility, stability, and workflow standpoint.
I think ProTools is a LOT more essential from a recording/editing stand point.

If people are coming to you purely as a mix guy (your intellectual property), I don't think it's as important. They should give you tracks cleaned up, printed and ready to go. It shouldn't matter if your printing to your 3348 or not.

If both, then ProTools is probably wise.

And I'm tired of beating this dead horse, but WHY On earth do people keep talking about how expensive pro tools is. For similar power, flexibility, and conversion....non pro tools systems get in the same ball park VERY quickly, and usually have to be updated (computer) much more often.
Old 6th August 2005
  #7
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DivineMusic's Avatar
 

Nuendo an do anything that pro tools can.. but yes having the pro tools on your equipment list will bring more clients b/c thats what they really know.
i'm also a nuendo user but our new studio is a Hd3 protools setup with an icon...
for my personal setup i just got a 002R. i use it with nuendo and with pro tools 6.9...
i mainly had my partners get it for me so i could really master pro tools and do things at my house before going to the production house

putting pro tools on my homestudio list already got me 3 new artist.. i only care for 1 of them but hey... money is what i need so i'll do the project :D

so to answer your question...YES pro tools will bring more clients but you don't NEED it. HD isn't cheap. our system is rather basic and cost almost 170K
Old 6th August 2005
  #8
Gear Maniac
 
Joe Cole's Avatar
 

If you must....get an M-Box to appease the herd, and continue doing what you are doing with Nuendo. Keep the extra costs down.

I even heard of a guy using a Protools wallpaper in his Nuendo just to quiet down any of those questions.
Old 6th August 2005
  #9
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Riad's Avatar
 

One of the ONLY reasons I upgraded to PT HD2 Accel was to keep competitive advantage.
Old 6th August 2005
  #10
Gear Addict
 

The real question is if you purchase HD, and your client base stays the same will it hurt you finacially. If your answer is yes, I would wait until you have the client base that warrants the invesment. I work with a few studios that decided to make the upgrade to HD and have found not a single change in their client base. A huge invesment based on a specualtion can equal disaster.
Old 6th August 2005
  #11
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Doublehelix's Avatar
 

I am also in the Steinberg camp, and I love it.

That being said, PT is the standard, and I have considered the switch, BUT...

It is more than just investing in PT, you also have to re-invest in all the plug-ins, and I have a boatload!!!

-Waves, including IR-1
-3 UAD-1 cards (with all plug-ins)
-Poco card with Sony plugins
-Auto-Tune
-Melodyne
-URS EQs
-Several Native Instruments VSTi's (B4, Pro53, etc.)

And tons more!!!

This is where it really sucks, trying to upgrade all these to TDM is a nightmare!

And from want I hear, the VST-to-TDM wrapper adds a ton of latency, is this right?

If someone could convince me that I could use all my existing VST plugins and have it work properly, I'd most likely make the switch to an HD2 or HD3 system.

I'd need:

-HD3 accel (~$13,000)
-HD192 Digital (~$2,500) - I already have converters
-Midi Box (~$600) - For my Mackie Controller and expanders

That is ~$16,000, and includes NO additional plug-ins!!! Add in AT LEAST an extra $5,000 to upgrade the plugs to TDM, and now we are up to $21,000...for WHAT? Are my mixes going to sound better? I am going to have to generate $21,000 EXTRA incremental business JUST TO BREAK EVEN!!!

Convince me that the VST wrapper works, and I might consider it, but otherwise, I am sticking with Cubase SX.
Old 6th August 2005
  #12
Lives for gear
 

I'm also a Cubase SX user who has an MBox to appease those who want PT. I don't do major label work so I can't comment on what they do and don't want.

For 20-25k though... I could put together very powerful Nuendo system. IMHO unless your clientele warrants the investment PTHD is way overpriced. In your position (about to make a major breakthrough into the industry?) it might well be worth it.

I'd be sure first though, or go for an entry level setup.

Lawrence
Old 6th August 2005
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerdude
Can i work for labels on big projects without having Pro Tools HD?

My question is.... Does getting PT HD make me more attractive to producers and labels?

Or do people only care what the end product sounds like?
I guess you can go run off with all the other lemmings as they rush into the surf. Here's a clue for you. NO ONE CARES what the quality of your stuff sounds like anymore.

The question remains, do you care what it sounds like?

If so, you will do what it takes to not end up hating the sound of music.

That usually means avoiding the PT route.

One Reporter's opinion.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 6th August 2005
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

So what are the SONIC differences between PT LE and HD say using the same top notch AD/DA??????? In 24 bit is there a difference in Head room? Signal to noise ratio??????
Can someone Enlighten me?
Old 6th August 2005
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Riad's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RooF
So what are the SONIC differences between PT LE and HD say using the same top notch AD/DA??????? In 24 bit is there a difference in Head room? Signal to noise ratio??????
Can someone Enlighten me?
I've upgrade from Digi002 to HD2 Accel. I used my Apogee AD16-X with both systems.

I would have to say that honestly the sonic difference between them is slight at best. I do think the main advantage, sonically, are the plug-ins. The TDM plug-ins certainly sound better to my ears.

Of course the track count is a HUGH advantage moving from LE to TDM and its one of the reasons I upgraded, however, sonically - I don't think I could tell in a blind taste test.

ymmv,
Rob
Old 6th August 2005
  #16
Gear Addict
 
jerdude's Avatar
 

Interesting comments all!!

Thanks for the input.

Its funny how the issue of changing platforms can really make you think about what you want out of your career and life in general....

Here is my problem.... i want it both ways.

#1. "Success" to me is walking into Best Buy or Target and finding 20 records i am credited on.

#2. "Success" to me is being true to myself and my "ideals" and working on music that is in at least some way... more that just marketing to a beat.

I know people do plenty of work with artistic integrity using Pro Tools. But for some reason the thought that "you need to get PT so you can take every gig that comes your way.... so eventually you can get the good ones"... just bugs me.

BUT can you really have "success #1" without being a pawn in the system for a while.... maybe a long while...

I think PT is a fine product and i have no real issue with PT HD.... TDM yes... however.... Isn't it funny how PT is associated with corporate label BS.
Old 6th August 2005
  #17
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

If I was in your situation I wouldn't get Pro Tools.

That sounds crazy coming from me (as I am a huge proponent of it).

The reason being that labels don't really care.

You've said that people are digging your work. That's all that matters.

Yeah, some clients care, but not labels. As long as your happy with your results and they are too, just keep going.

If "you" think it will improve your work, than by all means try it. But don't expect more work because of it. People hire me for "ME". Not my gear. Alot of people have the same or better gear than me. But they don't have "ME".

That said, you may have a hell of a time converting all those Pro Tools sessions for you to mix. Producers won't like any extra work that "YOU" make them do. Find a friend with at least an LE setup to help you convert files.

Good Luck. It's all about "YOU". Never forget that.
Old 6th August 2005
  #18
Moderator
 
James Lugo's Avatar
 

In the circles I run in in LA, you're dead without Mac protools. End of story. The formating and compatablity issues between mac and PC and Protools and DP/Nuendo/Cubase at best is a royal pain in the ass if it works at all. Usually we have the tracks consolidated to zero and start a fresh session in protools and import the tracks in Shuffle mode. I'm in a huge music building in Hollywood, about 50 studios, everyone is mac protools!
Old 6th August 2005
  #19
Lives for gear
 
Faderjockey's Avatar
 

Well we have a Pro Tools Mix system. We talked about HD for a mintue...Same as stated before..I didn't want to buy all new plugs and hardware.

So I went and built a PC and I'm using Cubase SX3. I love working with it... The External hardware thing is great.

But we are not selling the Mix system because I still get work on it... I have a session today with a band on tour..They had a break came in to do Vocals for a tune for Roadrunner records.. THe Label FedEx me the files yesterday..I loaded and we did what we had to do.

So yes having Pro Tools is nice...But when Clients send me stuff to mix...I'm using Cubase SX and doing my thing. They aren't asking what I'm using..They just want me.

Now that said I get asked "What are you running" more when it's tracking...Mixing session I don't get that alot.

But I have had plenty of mix sessions come from other formats..Even before I had Cubase. Guys around here would send DP, Nuendo, Cubase, Sonar and Pro Tools..I'd just have them Zero it out and that was it. I'd load it into PT's..Now I'm doing the same thing with Cuabse.
Old 6th August 2005
  #20
Gear Nut
 
audiomastermind's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerdude
Can i work for labels on big projects without having Pro Tools HD?

My current system is based around Nuendo, 3 Uad-1's and system called PARIS that i use for summing.... i have some outboard stuff 2 nice eq's and compressors... but not much.

I have mixed only 2 projects for labels... but both of those in the last 6 months. I hear through the grapevine that people are noticing my work.... in fact i got a call the other day from a very well respected mix guy who works on an SSL and mixes stuff many of you have prolly heard of... he heard some stuff that i mixed for an artist demo/pitch and was really complimentary.

I am working on another project right now for a well known singer/artist... the producers love my mixes and if the label doesn't want to get a name guy.... then i am on the record.

I am just trying to give you guys an idea of where i am at right now in my career.

My question is.... Does getting PT HD make me more attractive to producers and labels?

Or do people only care what the end product sounds like?

I have a whole other issue with making myself more attractive to the "system". I don't really want to get into all that. I suppose its way to early in my career to be worried about "selling out". I just don't want to be one of those guys who takes everything that comes down the pike just so i can "get in" with the right people. But yet i want to make money at this... preferably lots of it. I am rambling now.

any words of wisdom??



if you can afford it, i should say: go for it !
and upgrade every time, if you can
Old 6th August 2005
  #21
Lives for gear
 
beechstudio's Avatar
 

I have a friend who got a $20k contract from Victory records. He records on a Digi 001 and an Alesis Studio 32 mixer. He really makes some awesome recordings!

I think the talent lies with the Engineer. The gear is just icing on the cake. IMHO heh
Old 6th August 2005
  #22
Lives for gear
 
jpupo74's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_hti
And I'm tired of beating this dead horse, but WHY On earth do people keep talking about how expensive pro tools is.
BECAUSE IT´S EXPENSIVE DUDE!

Don´t try to beat the dead horse cause the dead horse will beat you...

Old 7th August 2005
  #23
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joaquin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams
I guess you can go run off with all the other lemmings as they rush into the surf. Here's a clue for you. NO ONE CARES what the quality of your stuff sounds like anymore.

The question remains, do you care what it sounds like?

If so, you will do what it takes to not end up hating the sound of music.

That usually means avoiding the PT route.

One Reporter's opinion.

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Hi Mr Williams.
...So...what Route do you suggest??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roof
So what are the SONIC differences between PT LE and HD say using the same top notch AD/DA??????? In 24 bit is there a difference in Head room? Signal to noise ratio??????
Can someone Enlighten me?
The have a different Math for the Mix bus, HD has ADC, Surround, zillions of tracks...etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpupo74
BECAUSE IT´S EXPENSIVE DUDE!
Hi there!! I really do not think that it's that expensive if you are doing serious work!!...I mean making a reasonable living with Music....It's cheaper than most "saturns"... heh
I'm using my 002 until I finish with the Analog Gear in my Studio. I already made up my mind to upgrade to HD. Since it, with the Computer, are going to be my last investment (!?)...I hope that for that time, new and better products are going to be on the Market...we'll see.
Old 7th August 2005
  #24
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macr0w's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpupo74
BECAUSE IT´S EXPENSIVE DUDE!

Don´t try to beat the dead horse cause the dead horse will beat you...

Well How much is a medium format console or a stack of outboard gear. And maybe a Radar or Fairlight system that is comparible. PT HD is only expensive for people who can't afford it.
Old 7th August 2005
  #25
[QUOTE=joaquin]Hi Mr Williams.
...So...what Route do you suggest??



Radar 96.
Analog console.
Real outboard.


Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 7th August 2005
  #26
Lives for gear
 
joaquin's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=Jim Williams]
Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquin
Hi Mr Williams.
...So...what Route do you suggest??



Radar 96.
Analog console.
Real outboard.


Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
What advantages do you find in the RADAR set up over PT HD??....
Old 7th August 2005
  #27
Gear Nut
 
BradG's Avatar
 

The only insight that I (who do not have an HD system) can offer is an experience that I had about nine years ago. I was fortunate enough to work with an amazing producer who, at that time, was THE hot radio-remix guy for rock/pop. He did all his work on this crazy frankenstein board that he'd basically custom designed and had people build for him. I'm talking EQ's, busses, everything.

Weren't you supposed to mix EVERYTHING on an SSL G back then?

They were buying his final product, not the means he used to get there.

I do wish I could afford HD though.
Old 7th August 2005
  #28
Lives for gear
 

pt vs native

The one thing that sets tdm or pt hd apart is:

very low latency,

If you are multitracking full bands, this can be an important issue.
I agree with most of the rest of the posts here.

PT hd is the standard now, If you are doing a lot of work with other studios it can make a difference in lost time converting stripes to use in a pc format nuendo rig.

That being said, if you do most of your work in house, and maybe not huge tracking sessions you can be just as happy with a pc nuendo rig for much less $$. You can get very low latency now, esp if only recording a couple tracks at a time.

48K A/B of my pt le system with 32bit float in nuendo?...(with the same dac and adc,)
Nuendo wins, I havent been able to a/b nuendo and hd yet, but I have a feeling the steinberg rig would win.

If you are a composer/writer type I think the VSTi and midi tools in nuendo are better than pt, something to consider.
Old 7th August 2005
  #29
Lives for gear
 
T_R_S's Avatar
Get a Mbox or a 002 and tell them you have Protools. Probably about 40% of my clients don't know the differece between HD and 002.
I am not serious but I have seen lots of studios adveitse "We have Protools"
... they just forget to say the LE part.
with that said if you can cost jusify it (charging at least $500.00/day) it will pay for it self. Just remember this most people in production hire for skill not for gear.
Old 7th August 2005
  #30
Gear Head
 
soundeslutz's Avatar
 

everyone this side of texas has a hardon for pro tools, including myself, but as we all know no gear or software can MAKE someone a good engineer or producer
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