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Ultimate "glue" compressor on digital 2 bus
Old 4th August 2005
  #31
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred
Anybody here just don't like comps in general for two bus? I think the magic is all getting it right in the individual tracks, or at a minimum on stems/sub busses...
Me.



I like to get it all in the tracks and find that 2 mix processing homogenises it. I generally use those colors for digital stuff. the TMEQ makes digital almost good enough to replace tape, when on a 2 mix.


When I do things here on 2", and if every (or almost every) track is great, I dont need 2 buss anything except maybe mixing to 1/2" (Although the p38 is clean enough to not change to tones, just adds a little smack!)
Old 4th August 2005
  #32
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DirkB's Avatar
Just a question on the BIG setting of the 1968. I read it's a 100hz highpass filter in the side chain and of course when using this, the lowend will be bigger since it's less compressed. How does this compare to the highpass on the Distressor? When I use the highpass in the Distressor side chain, there is virually no compression of the lowend, which makes this setting quite useless on bass and kick in my opinion. I certainly like the idea of this high-pass in the side chain, but I do want at least some compression on the lowend.
What do you guys think of it?

The 1968 looks cool since it might work on bass and vocals also, where I could need some more tracking options...

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 4th August 2005
  #33
Lives for gear
When there is a 100hz highpass filter in the side chain it means that the comressor will react on all frequenties above 100hz. It does not mean that the frequenties below 100hz will not be compressed.
And yes, if you use it on bass (or kick) only, the compression is will only be triggered by frequenties above 100hz. This may look like the low end is not compressed.

On the 2 bus it's sometimes good to have a high pass filter going in the side chain. This way the compressor will not react as strong on the bass and kick drum, so you'll be able to aply more compression without the pumping artifacts.
Old 4th August 2005
  #34
Dont forget to open the "Similar Threads" menu beelow this post...
Old 4th August 2005
  #35
Gear Maniac
 
cfjis's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiance
On the 2 bus it's sometimes good to have a high pass filter going in the side chain. This way the compressor will not react as strong on the bass and kick drum, so you'll be able to aply more compression without the pumping artifacts.
Definitely.
I really dig that as a mix technique... and the fact that the 1968 has it built in makes my lust for more gear kick in.
Old 4th August 2005
  #36
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The Alamo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB
So, share your succes stories heh . I'm especially interested in what people mixing digitally are using in a dirt guitar rock situation. I want to find 3 pieces or so to try. At the moment a C1, OLC-2 and API2500 seem like interesting options to try. Anything else? What about the Buzz stereo compressor?

Thanks,
Dirk
C1: Yes
API 2500: Yes, sorta
I'd personnaly pass on the Vari Mu for that application; I have a T Bar modded one and I do love it, but not on the stereo bus on 'dirty guitar rock situation'. Cause I'm assuming that if you want heavy guitars, you'd also want slamming drums. And for that particular situation the Vari Mu is too soft, too smooth on the bottom. I takes away from the kick's punch. But I do like it on live strings, piano and BV).
I do a lot of this kind of rock music and the Red 3/Blue 230 have always given me everything I've wanted.
All The Best,
Old 4th August 2005
  #37
Gear Nut
 
TedF's Avatar
 

Dirk has picked up on one of the big unsung factors in the performance, sound and musicality of compressors.... the amplitude frequency response of the sidechain. We all rabbit on about attack and release times and the characteristic sounds of the various compression techniques, but it's a not-so-well-kept trade secret that the 'weight' of compression is affected mainly by the shape of the sidechain curve.
I have been using something close to a 'constant amplitude' sidechain for some time, and this certainly gives a 'kick butt' type of compression when used agressively, but at the same time, in combination with those odd recovery shapes that you get with optical compressors, it's very 'gluey' and warm when used gently.

My own experience is that if you really have to stick to mixing in the box (and this could well be for economic and time reasons) then a good optical compressor is essential to emulate a whole range of analog mixer deficiencies (!) that are just not there in the PT mix..... and I don't want to get drawn into the 'quality' argument; it's simpler to acknowledge that the best digital systems are as close to transparent as makes no difference, and really good sounds are engineering creations of what we like to hear..... or is that another thread? :-)


Ted Fletcher
www.tfpro.com

(Oh... and Hutch's compressors are lovely!)
Old 4th August 2005
  #38
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DirkB's Avatar
Ok, since Ted is kind enough to reply, I'll give credit where credit's due. My last mixes that got mastered last week got a little eq from a Fairman TMEQ and went through Teds TFPRO P38 with hardly any compression as I understood it... Definitely a lot of glue and "analogue" sound for lack of a better description.

So maybe I should get the P38 on the list, how well does it tracking bass and vocals heh ?

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 4th August 2005
  #39
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB
So maybe I should get the P38 on the list, how well does it tracking bass and vocals heh ?
wouldn't be my first choice but could work well. it's a clean path, so if you like your sounds and want only the compression sound added in, there you go. it's also stereo, not dual mono. (they have a twin channel product for pre, comp, eq .. but it's not exactly the same for a 2 mix)


the '68 is the other end of the spectrum, darker and messy and rock dirt.

maybe do both?
Old 4th August 2005
  #40
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
digital 2buss? all those are analog pieces...

i like the pspvw of all plugins... multiband mode. took a while to REALLY learn but i like it a lot, it glues like super glue and has a wide range of character depending on how you set it. i loiked it a lot more than the SOC on 2buss [sorry tim, i did like the SOC on other things a LOT, especially on the way in] but when i mix digital i stay that way to final product now.
Care to share any tips how to really get the most out of VW. It can be a little tricky to learn to use really successfully, although I do really like it myself too. What do you typically do to keep the low end from getting flabby or mushy?

thanks,
Brad
Old 4th August 2005
  #41
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syra's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkB
My last mixes that got mastered last week got a little eq from a Fairman TMEQ and went through Teds TFPRO P38 with hardly any compression as I understood it... Definitely a lot of glue and "analogue" sound for lack of a better description.
Well...if you slap any digital brickwall limiter across your mix and aim for the high levels, things will get glued anyway...Compression is important but depending on the mix is not necessary.

The important thing is your mix to be as even as possible before you hit the limiter . You can do this by mixing into a compressor or automating your levels without a compressor.
Old 4th August 2005
  #42
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six_wax's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan
Care to share any tips how to really get the most out of VW. It can be a little tricky to learn to use really successfully, although I do really like it myself too. What do you typically do to keep the low end from getting flabby or mushy?

thanks,
Brad
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showp...7&postcount=27

thanks be to aj...
Old 4th August 2005
  #43
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by syra
Well...if you slap any digital brickwall limiter across your mix and aim for the high levels, things will get glued anyway...Compression is important but depending on the mix is not necessary.
you might get what you want, but limiting a mix if any mastering at all is coming later often causes limitations.

then again, if it's subtle mix limiting, and an analog mastering chain is being used b4 reconverting and then more digital limiting, it might work out fine as the analog chain will 'naturalize' the waves somewhat with eq pushes.

better to leave limiting for mastering, ultimately.

Quote:
The important thing is your mix to be as even as possible before you hit the limiter . You can do this by mixing into a compressor or automating your levels without a compressor.
right ... automating levels is great for evenness.

yet for the punch of SUBTLE compresssion, you need a compressor!
Old 4th August 2005
  #44
Gear Maniac
 
rghose's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred
Anybody here just don't like comps in general for two bus? I think the magic is all getting it right in the individual tracks, or at a minimum on stems/sub busses...
I agree. I think it's pretty dangerous when you start relying on a 2-bus compressor to "glue" your mix. I'm not saying that a good, properly used 2-buss compressor can't help a good mix, I'm just saying that your mix should "glue" even without the compressor.

If you are liking the sound of your mixes after mastering, try A/Bing the before and after tracks to find out EXACTLY what changed. Make sure you match the levels of the two tracks. Then use your ears to find out what the mastering engineer did to make your mix better. You'll obviously hear tonal differences, but also listen for balances (the glue?) and dynamics. Then try to apply what you heard to your mixes.

I think critical listening on this level will make your mixes sound way better than any single gear purchace. Just buying an expensive compressor won't automatically make your mixes better. The mastering engineer(s) who mastered your mixes may have had the gear, but they also had the ears.

Just a thought.

Cheers!
Reuben
Old 4th August 2005
  #45
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mtstudios@charter's Avatar
 

Actually like the GML 8900

www.bluethumbproductions.com
Old 4th August 2005
  #46
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DirkB's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rghose
I agree. I think it's pretty dangerous when you start relying on a 2-bus compressor to "glue" your mix. I'm not saying that a good, properly used 2-buss compressor can't help a good mix, I'm just saying that your mix should "glue" even without the compressor.
I'm not saying the mixes don't MIX together or that there is no glue... However, with a quality analog chain run over a digital mix, a "quality" is added that I like which I cannot get with digital processing.
I'm definitely not relying on it, I have been mixing without one for a couple of years! But I'm looking for that edge that I hear when my stuff comes back from mastering...

I'm going to give the 1968 a first run and see if it does what I'm looking for. If not I'll try something else .

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 4th August 2005
  #47
You know what I am going to say right....

Quote:
But I'm looking for that edge that I hear when my stuff comes back from mastering...
Well then ... errrrr... wait for it to come back from mastering then right??

heh

Old 4th August 2005
  #48
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
You know what I am going to say right....
Well then ... errrrr... wait for it to come back from mastering then right??
heh
Yes, so it'll be money well spent on mastering.

I doubt that the glue applied during mastering is a simple 2bus comp issue.

I guess it's a combination of limiting, better conversion, a HEDD maybe, hi-end sparkle via break-the-bank EQs, etc

Again, I like it when the master is giving me that feeling and when the unmastered mix that sounded good before suddendly sounds tame and timid in comparsion....

Andi

www.dorknocker.ch
Old 4th August 2005
  #49
Gear Maniac
 

The Manley Vai-Mu in combination with the Lavry Blue does something magical for me...
Just with minimal compression (1-2 to 3 db's at most) the mixes just take a life of their own...
At least to my humble ears
Old 4th August 2005
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by RooF
The Manley Vai-Mu in combination with the Lavry Blue does something magical for me...
Just with minimal compression (1-2 to 3 db's at most) the mixes just take a life of their own...
At least to my humble ears

That raises an interesting question...I wonder if it's mainly the sound of the transformers/circuitry that are giving people the 'sound' that they like (i.e. harmonics in the lows or mids, etc), as compared to the actual compression of the unit?
Old 4th August 2005
  #51
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by six_wax
Thanks! That's what I was looking for.

Brad
Old 4th August 2005
  #52
Gear Guru
 
lucey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker
Yes, so it'll be money well spent on mastering.

I doubt that the glue applied during mastering is a simple 2bus comp issue.

I guess it's a combination of limiting, better conversion, a HEDD maybe, hi-end sparkle via break-the-bank EQs, etc
www.dorknocker.ch
getting very close!



When you hire mastering you hire a person (who has a preference but with direction can be VERY flexible) but the path they use is more fixed.

Even so, the thing with harmonics is that subtleties are huge and the chain (and the order) dictates these subtle/huge harmonic changes on a mix.

An EQ or comp or converter doesn't exist in a vacuum. Each converter chages the chain before it... every tiny EQ or Hedd adjustment changes everything else. The width knob on the P38 moving 1/16 of an inch is the difference between buried vocal and not, in some cases. 1/2 a number on the HEDD Tape Process is huge. And a new converter makes everything in the chain so different its a new world.

I had more or less had sworn off of POWr dithers until adding a new eq, now I use POWr2 almost exclusively ... this was the necessary harmonic change, and the difference is not subtle.
Old 4th August 2005
  #53
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robot gigante's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred
That raises an interesting question...I wonder if it's mainly the sound of the transformers/circuitry that are giving people the 'sound' that they like (i.e. harmonics in the lows or mids, etc), as compared to the actual compression of the unit?
I would think so especially in the case of the Manley Vari-Mu, since (as most Mu users know) when you back off the outputs and drive the input a little harder sometimes that's the 'sound' even if the meters are barely twitching instead of compressing a lot.

FWIW I think limit mode on the Mu is more useful on more agressive music than compress mode, it doesn't soften the lows *quite* as much (still does though, sure) and I like when it pumps a little when set right (2 db of GR or so slow attack fast release), sounds nice in that it's not too agressive when you make it pump. But then again I like the sound of of a little compressor pumping on the 2-bus which I guess not everyone does. For softer folky music, compress mode for sure, no pumping.
Old 4th August 2005
  #54
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DirkB's Avatar
Yeah, all true about the mastering, but my goal as a MIXER is it do ultimately deliver a mix that is finished.

I want to hear the overall dynamics on MY speakers and not be surprised with what I get back. I want to hear the finished overall frequency balance like I hear it in my head.
Problem is, I feel I don't have the tools to get there quite. And knowing what high-end analoge compressors and eq's do during tracking, I feel that the right analoge compressor and eq are going to give me what I want. Which is basically better overall glue, depth, improved center channel and punchy, yet controlled dynamics. That is my goal as a MIX engineer.

The day that I will be satisfied with what I'm NOT able to achieve and trust the ME to do, is the day that I quit.

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 4th August 2005
  #55
Gear Addict
 

Of course the compression itself is not the only thing that glues stuff together! Alot of boxes set to zero may do the job fine. They should make a glue-only unit, if there is not one yet - I'm not yet a huge gearslutz-know-it-all. It would probably be something fancy like a bunch of different transformers and stuff to switch between and that's all. Good idea / already out there?

Old 4th August 2005
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Youn
Of course the compression itself is not the only thing that glues stuff together! Alot of boxes set to zero may do the job fine. They should make a glue-only unit, if there is not one yet - I'm not yet a huge gearslutz-know-it-all. It would probably be something fancy like a bunch of different transformers and stuff to switch between and that's all. Good idea / already out there?


Nicerizer.....

Old 4th August 2005
  #57
Gear Maniac
 

exellent question Nathan I have wondered myself many times...

Some gear is just so musical sometimes i fell that it's just the circuitry...

the easy answer would be "it s because of the toobz, or Jensens or this or that"...too simple in my opinion...

This needs and thread on its own i think...
Old 4th August 2005
  #58
Gear Maniac
 

lets not forget DA/AD...
Old 4th August 2005
  #59
Quote:
Originally Posted by RooF
exellent question Nathan I have wondered myself many times...

Some gear is just so musical sometimes i fell that it's just the circuitry...

the easy answer would be "it s because of the toobz, or Jensens or this or that"...too simple in my opinion...

This needs and thread on its own i think...

The whole basis for my question was because I was on the same path about a year ago in regards to the two bus comp. My individual tracks were good, but I figured doing the two bus thing would help even more (I was mixing to tape also, but not tracking to tape at the time but am now). I've tried all the common pieces, they all sounded good at first listen, but after comparing compressed to non compressed, the non compressed would win. Especially in light of the fact that it's going to be smashed with a digital brickwall limiter (give or take +/- .03db). Even more so now after tracking to 2" 16. So that leads me back to the whole 'do it in the individual track' theory that I have...if the output bus is too colored, or too squashed (and this could be even in subtle quantities), it's too much of a good thing at one single stage of the path. Retaining control of color and compression in an appropriate way for each piece of the puzzle adds up to something much larger and 'glued' IME. But I think it takes a lot more effort, skill set, and money to do it this way. Does this make sense, it's a bit hard to explain?
Old 4th August 2005
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by NathanEldred
Retaining control of color and compression in an appropriate way for each piece of the puzzle adds up to something much larger and 'glued' IME. But I think it takes a lot more effort, skill set, and money to do it this way. Does this make sense, it's a bit hard to explain?

My 2 cents is you do what's needed.

Sometimes its no 2 buss comp and sometimes its both.

I do agree about the glue being in the mix or being the mix.

Digital tracks suffer from what i call "seperation" anxiety.
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