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Is vocal comping as bad as auto tuning?
Old 27th July 2005
  #61
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Some day a new tool will be developed. It will be called auto-unperfect. It will take dull, lifeless, unemotional tracks that are too perfect (because they were overly comped, aligned, and retuned) and automatically vary them to make them sound real. Would that be cheating?
Old 28th July 2005
  #62
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James Lugo's Avatar
 

As a vocal coach in LA who works one on one everyday with all levels of singers, a lot of the great/famous singers are pitchy and vibey and a lot of singers with dead on pitch are machanical and boring sounding. So I don't think autotune is the anti christ. Hell listen to a ton of great records from back in the day and they're pitchy as hell, almost hard to listen to these days, for me anyway. One of my favorite tunes is "Fool in the Rain". WOW! You know they would have tuned that if they could...lol Plant sounds like he's on another planet but it's a hit and it rocks!
Old 29th July 2005
  #63
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystr Tiger
Some day a new tool will be developed. It will be called auto-unperfect. It will take dull, lifeless, unemotional tracks that are too perfect (because they were overly comped, aligned, and retuned) and automatically vary them to make them sound real. Would that be cheating?
Ok, lets get right to it: Is Lip syncing cheating?

Mystr Tiger....not singling you out, but your quote just seemed like a good example to use.

Also, for the person(s) who used making movies as an analogy: Actor(s) and directors are in the business of make-believe. They fool you into believing that the actor is someone else or can do something that the actor can't normally do, and if they are talented, you will believe it, for a short while. So it is actually the job of the actors/directors to fool you, that is the mission.

I don't think it is the mission of singers/producers/engineers to Fool the listener into believing they can really sing, even if they can't and they are actually an actor who was just hired to play a part and to play pretty on stage while lip syncing.

Oh, wait a minute, that actually does happen

But the point is, in music, that is not the intent, it is not what the listener is expecting. The listener is expecting that the artist can actually sing, and/or play an instrument...at least better than the average person who never sang or played an instrument.

There is a big gap between one using autotune on a few difficult notes and one leaving it on through the whole song. When a producer uses autotune that much or hires ghost singers, and when the singer starts to lip sync on stage, they know this has to be kept a secret. Hence, many non-discloser agreements being signed.

I don't think the same thing is happening in the production of movies.

It's the Music Industries dirty little secret.

Speaking of which (and a little OT), I just heard that Sony settled a Payola lawsuit brought by the Feds, with more to come. Another dirty little secret.



Fleaman
Old 29th July 2005
  #64
Gear Maniac
 

Personally, I think the best way is to record it 2 bars at a time...and keep recording those two bars till the singer and producer is 100% happy. Then go on to the next 2 bars.
Old 29th July 2005
  #65
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Billster's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Offender
Personally, I think the best way is to record it 2 bars at a time...and keep recording those two bars till the singer and producer is 100% happy. Then go on to the next 2 bars.
But you better not forget the overall feeling in that step by step process. I believe it´s still better to have someone in front of the mic that can deliver. thumbsup

Cheers,
Bill
Old 29th July 2005
  #66
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I don't think it's cheating, it's show business.....putting on an act or a show...putting your best show on to please the audience...

...not much different than a woman who uses make-up or colors her hair....or a guy who dress up instead of dressing like a slob....

Careful for what you wish for, I've hear some singers who did need auto-tune but DIDN"T use it !!!! OOOOOUUUUCCCHHHH !!!!!!

Ever see a woman in the morning without make-up ????????

Be thankful !!
Old 30th July 2005
  #67
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
I don't think it's cheating, it's show business.....putting on an act or a show...putting your best show on to please the audience...
Remember Milli Vanilli?

It's all fun and games until the secret is out.

Then EVERYONE calls you a cheater.

And, if you won a Grammy, you have to give it back.

Not fun.



Fleaman
Old 30th July 2005
  #68
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Milli Vanilli was using DIFFERENT SINGERS !!!!!!!!

But I still liked them !!!



At least Ashlee was syncing to her own voice !!!!

And Ashlee did a great job at her concert I attended.

Ashlee Rocks !!!!!! heh
Old 30th July 2005
  #69
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dntknowsht's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by norman_nomad
The whole concept of "cheating" in music seems so bizarre to me. I hate it when people make music into a "sport".
To me, it's only about getting what you hear in your head, to come out of the speakers.
Whatever it takes.
Old 30th July 2005
  #70
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bunnerabb's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dntknowsht
To me, it's only about getting what you hear in your head, to come out of the speakers.
Whatever it takes.
That is the craft.

That is the art.

It's what we're supposed to be doing.

Listening. then massaging what we hear into the thing that plays on our internal 16 track. It aint the tools, it's the tune. Although, frankly, Auto does bug me a bit. Vocal comping? It's mostly vocal comping. Name three, one-take wonders in this industry.
Old 30th July 2005
  #71
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tunesmith's Avatar
 

1. Whomever comps Mariah Carey's vocal should be killed. Doesn't that chick need to breathe? Sheesh...

2. For me... comping is like a movie. If I want to see one long, "in the moment" performance, I will go see play. When we see a movie, it's an actor shooting over several days sewn together by another artist... the editor. The comp is the same thing... for me.

Tunes.
Old 30th July 2005
  #72
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octatonic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GearGeek
I just think you have to be careful how much you edit. I hate records that sound "Pro Tooled". Espescialy in rock. You can hear how much editing is done in records by Linkin Park, Disturbed, etc. It sounds stale and artificial. It will never have the warmth of a classic Aerosmith or AC/DC record.
I appreciate that this is your opinion- but personally I really like the creativity of the editing processed- Disturbed are one of my fave bands of the last 5 years- the stutter editing is getting a bit old now sure, but I really connect with Disturbed in a way I don't conenct to the music of Aerosmith or AC/DC- I listen to both certainly but not as much as Disturbed.

All that is being discussed here is opinion- we all have different lines that we will or will not cross in our work- I use the tools and as much as I can I try to do something different from the next guy.

For me the problem is not the act (comping, stutter edit) but the relentless ubiquity of these things as engineers and producers sit in darkened rooms being pliant to the whims of artists who care more for keeping up with the competition than doing something unique and interesting- but this is a private concern- day to day I have to use the same tools and techniques- I just try to do as good a job as I can at it and have a laugh doing it...

JR
Old 14th August 2005
  #73
ive just taught the singer to comp her on vocals in logic while i take a nap and surf the web. ahhhhhh
Old 14th August 2005
  #74
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How about mixers getting a mix in one take. Any more than 2 passes is cheating.
Old 14th August 2005
  #75
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7 Hz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyclueless
How about mixers getting a mix in one take. Any more than 2 passes is cheating.
Yeh, and don't even mention automation...

I just set my AutoMix program to "top 10 hit" and walk away...
Old 14th August 2005
  #76
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i find that vocals that have been comped/heavily edited often lack the most important element: excitement, humanity, an emotional through line, and sponteneity.

i'd much rather have the occasional clam and out of tune note than a "perfect" vocal. then again i listen to zep bootlegs all the time so mabe my perspective is....different.

i am very curious as to how edited the vocals on the last radiohead record were. those have a nice emotional continuity and even funky notes, breaths, inconsistancies, and i think it sounds great....
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