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Do CLA and Mike Shipley Really Use Steven Slate Drums? Condenser Microphones
Old 6th April 2009
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BushmasterM4 View Post
I think most of the time in commercial work, replacement is done with drumagog or equivalent. Its not programmed. Its the drummer playing and you cant quantize that. Only Midi tracks can take advantage of that. I bet alot of bands use triggered samples. Especially with the time savings and flexability. Its like the reamping craze going on. Works great especially if you have a drummer who insists on using his **** drum set.

The vast majority of high-end professional sample augmentation is done with by hand editing to cut "triggers" (once cycle waveforms which represent just the attack amplitude of each hit) and Sound Replacer (with follow dynamics on so it follows the relative volume of the hit).

The benefits over drumagog are this: Sample Accuracy & no extra playback DSP. (I know you can print drum-agog and that solves the DSP problem.)

Downsides: Takes a long time to cut triggers for Kick & Snare.... especially metal tunes!

But its how I make a good chuck of my income is just from cutting triggers for other engineers.
Old 6th April 2009
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
Man i love that CD, peace beyond Passion, and i love the sound of the drums,
did you remember what was the set up for the acoustic drums......
Thanks. It was a modified OceanWay drum setup (I worked there for 9 years)... Studio 3 is a small room where Pet Sounds was recorded... Now owned by East West but the Neve is gone.

Kick In D112
Kick Out 47 FET
Snare top - SM57
Snare side - AKG 452 -20dB pad
Snare bottom - Sennheiser 441
Hat - Schoeps CMC5U
Toms - AKG C12A's
OH's - C12's
Room - M50's

Neve 8078 discrete.

Drums in the front corner with the drummer's back to the glass/wall -- baffled in a little to tighten up the sound.

Tracked to Sony PCM800 (DA 88) and transferred to Pro Tools 3. Transferred to Studer 48 track DASH for mixing - by Bob Power who did an amazing job on an SSL G series at The Enterprise. Produced by David Gamson.

Rail
Old 6th April 2009
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatinumSamples View Post
Thanks. It was a modified OceanWay drum setup (I worked there for 9 years)... Studio 3 is a small room where Pet Sounds was recorded... Now owned by East West but the Neve is gone.

Kick In D112
Kick Out 47 FET
Snare top - SM57
Snare side - AKG 452 -20dB pad
Snare bottom - Sennheiser 441
Hat - Schoeps CMC5U
Toms - AKG C12A's
OH's - C12's
Room - M50's

Neve 8078 discrete.

Drums in the front corner with the drummer's back to the glass/wall -- baffled in a little to tighten up the sound.

Tracked to Sony PCM800 (DA 88) and transferred to Pro Tools 3. Transferred to Studer 48 track DASH for mixing - by Bob Power who did an amazing job on an SSL G series at The Enterprise. Produced by David Gamson.

Rail
Thank's for the detail Rail...... it's a inspiring Album.........
Old 6th April 2009
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor999 View Post
The vast majority of high-end professional sample augmentation is done with by hand editing to cut "triggers" (once cycle waveforms which represent just the attack amplitude of each hit) and Sound Replacer (with follow dynamics on so it follows the relative volume of the hit).

The benefits over drumagog are this: Sample Accuracy & no extra playback DSP. (I know you can print drum-agog and that solves the DSP problem.)

Downsides: Takes a long time to cut triggers for Kick & Snare.... especially metal tunes!

But its how I make a good chuck of my income is just from cutting triggers for other engineers.
wouldn't it make sense to have some kind of vibration sensitive midi strips on each drum/cymbal (kind of mix of normal and v-kit) so that you actually get both audio and a velocity sensitive midi file in first place?
meaning, the drummer doesn't have to hit the midi trigger but the midi sensor reads the hits/velocity.
Old 6th April 2009
  #35
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BushmasterM4's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatinumSamples View Post
Yes you can - and unfortunately it's done every day on commercial releases.

Rail
Hmm. I was under the impression that only midi could be quantized. Sure you can cut and move actual miced drum hits, but to quantize them automatically, I was told you could not. Id love to hear what program aligns actual miced drums. Im a newbie so if I have been told wrong in the past, fill me in
Old 6th April 2009
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushmasterM4 View Post
Hmm. I was under the impression that only midi could be quantized. Sure you can cut and move actual miced drum hits, but to quantize them automatically, I was told you could not. Id love to hear what program aligns actual miced drums. Im a newbie so if I have been told wrong in the past, fill me in
You can edit and quantize audio manually in Pro Tools using "Quantize Audio" (Option+0) or use Pro Tools' Beat Detective to automate the task.

Rail
Old 6th April 2009
  #37
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Jamzone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11413 View Post
sorry, large format analog console
I use SFLFAC backend with a DFCG front...
Old 6th April 2009
  #38
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BushmasterM4's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor999 View Post
The vast majority of high-end professional sample augmentation is done with by hand editing to cut "triggers" (once cycle waveforms which represent just the attack amplitude of each hit) and Sound Replacer (with follow dynamics on so it follows the relative volume of the hit).

The benefits over drumagog are this: Sample Accuracy & no extra playback DSP. (I know you can print drum-agog and that solves the DSP problem.)

Downsides: Takes a long time to cut triggers for Kick & Snare.... especially metal tunes!

But its how I make a good chuck of my income is just from cutting triggers for other engineers.
Should have read your post before posting the one above. Sound Replacer ? I'll have to google it. I can relate to cut and paiste on drum tracks taking time. Expecially when you have overhead mics involved. I just record for a hobby, when Im able, and I dont have acess to expensive equipment. So alot of my stuff has alot of cut and paiste.
Old 6th April 2009
  #39
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BushmasterM4's Avatar
 

Oh well. Sound replacer is a ProTools only plugin. That stinks
Old 6th April 2009
  #40
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BushmasterM4's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatinumSamples View Post
You can edit and quantize audio manually in Pro Tools using "Quantize Audio" (Option+0) or use Pro Tools' Beat Detective to automate the task.

Rail
When you say manually your talking cut and paiste ? Im not a Protools user. I use Tracktion 3 in which I have quantized midi tracks before. But on audio tracks I have to cut and move them. Am I doing it the hard way ?
Old 6th April 2009
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushmasterM4 View Post
When you say manually your talking cut and paiste ? Im not a Protools user. I use Tracktion 3 in which I have quantized midi tracks before. But on audio tracks I have to cut and move them. Am I doing it the hard way ?
I'm saying you:

1) Create a tempo map of the song
2) Create an edit group of all your drum tracks
3) Set the Grid to 16th notes

Start at the top of the song and....

4) Edit (Split Region) the drum group on the first Kick/Downbeat
5) Edit (Split Region) the drum group on the first Snare/Back-beat
6) Select the region you just created
7) Option+0 (Quantize Audio)

Move onto the next hit and repeat steps 4 - 7

After editing stretch the front of the regions earlier and create crossfades between all the edits, consolidate.

Make use of Save As... and Playlists while doing the above.

QuicKeys helps tremendously.

Rail
Old 6th April 2009
  #42
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BushmasterM4's Avatar
 

Thanks. Time to crank out my DAW manual and read some more on edits.
Old 6th April 2009
  #43
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leebridges's Avatar
 

step 1: buy pro tools
step 2: use beat detective

Rail is completely correct...this is how you can edit drums by hand. although, PT's BD will do this exact thing for you in minimal time. i've edited drums on hundreds of professional songs (sorry, someone was going to get paid to do it)...and i can edit a track of drums using BD in 30mins-1hour. if it's horrible playing or poorly tracked, maybe an hour and a half.

you have to learn how to use it well, but if you plan on editing more than a handful of drum tracks in your lifetime, learn to use BD and you will save yourself from going bald by pulling your hair out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatinumSamples View Post
I'm saying you:

1) Create a tempo map of the song
2) Create an edit group of all your drum tracks
3) Set the Grid to 16th notes

Start at the top of the song and....

4) Edit (Split Region) the drum group on the first Kick/Downbeat
5) Edit (Split Region) the drum group on the first Snare/Back-beat
6) Select the region you just created
7) Option+0 (Quantize Audio)

Move onto the next hit and repeat steps 4 - 7

After editing stretch the front of the regions earlier and create crossfades between all the edits, consolidate.

Make use of Save As... and Playlists while doing the above.

QuicKeys helps tremendously.

Rail
Old 6th April 2009
  #44
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Quote:
Hmm. I was under the impression that only midi could be quantized. Sure you can cut and move actual miced drum hits, but to quantize them automatically, I was told you could not. Id love to hear what program aligns actual miced drums. Im a newbie so if I have been told wrong in the past, fill me in
GO grab Reaper, and look in their tutorial videos... 'semi-automatic..'
ReaperTutorials - CockosWiki

the built-in tools in that program allow you do quantize drum tracks in literally a few minutes (then spend lots of time tweaking it to nauseating perfection)... but I tried it for fun, and it got me 90% of the way there in about 2 minutes.
Old 6th April 2009
  #45
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggator6 View Post
GO grab Reaper, and look in their tutorial videos... 'semi-automatic..'
ReaperTutorials - CockosWiki

the built-in tools in that program allow you do quantize drum tracks in literally a few minutes (then spend lots of time tweaking it to nauseating perfection)... but I tried it for fun, and it got me 90% of the way there in about 2 minutes.
there is ALWAYS a limit as to how automatic a process can be made...and that limit is usually defined by a drummer who can't hit a snare and a hi-hat together.
Old 6th April 2009
  #46
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Mike Brown's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by biggator6 View Post
GO grab Reaper, and look in their tutorial videos... 'semi-automatic..'
ReaperTutorials - CockosWiki

the built-in tools in that program allow you do quantize drum tracks in literally a few minutes (then spend lots of time tweaking it to nauseating perfection)... but I tried it for fun, and it got me 90% of the way there in about 2 minutes.
Meh.

Reaper. I want to like it so bad. But it just is not there yet.
Old 6th April 2009
  #47
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Chris and Mike both use my samples in conjunction with the real drums... I've never seen either of them straight up replace them, its always augmenting. Both usually use more then one sample and do their own tweaking to get the desired sound. So its more about their mixing skills rather then my drum hits.

I have the last few albums Chris mixed and none of the snares sound identical, quite unique actually.. Check out Seether, Nickelback (Chris did one of the singles), and Rise Against, Daughtry... all of these sound amazing.

Mike likes to use my ambient samples too... the Papa Roach stuff he did sounds incredible, thats gonna be a big album.

Overall, both of these guys are at the top of their game and for good reason, they are masters at their craft.
Old 6th April 2009
  #48
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BushmasterM4's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leebridges View Post
step 1: buy pro tools
step 2: use beat detective

Rail is completely correct...this is how you can edit drums by hand. although, PT's BD will do this exact thing for you in minimal time. i've edited drums on hundreds of professional songs (sorry, someone was going to get paid to do it)...and i can edit a track of drums using BD in 30mins-1hour. if it's horrible playing or poorly tracked, maybe an hour and a half.

you have to learn how to use it well, but if you plan on editing more than a handful of drum tracks in your lifetime, learn to use BD and you will save yourself from going bald by pulling your hair out.
Im not moving over to Protools To proprietary. If it still takes about an hour to align audio drums using the method you described, then Im in the same ballpark using my slice and move. Im not a perfectionist and dont mind if my crap is off a little. Makes it more personal. But I can see how people getting paid to record the next big hit would want perfection. I do it for fun.

By the way Bang, thanks for such a wonderful product. You always treat us small home hobby guys like the big players. Your a good guy !!!
Old 7th April 2009
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwilson View Post
Well I have never found a replacement for TAB then Paste each snare sample. Beat detective can put random hits out of phase and always seem out of time. Havn't tried Drumagogg but unless "ALL" tracks are replaced 100% accuratly and in phase I'm sticking to the original plan.

And yes Snare 50% original 50% sample (compressed together via distressor -5dbGR)along with plenty of room and some overhead works well for me.
Kick drum same or 100% sample if neccesery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
at least one very very well known british mixer/producer uses a similar technique, but with midi, and then battery to trigger samples - enabling very quick auditioning of different samples.

Another fairly well known up-and-coming producer/engineer uses a similar idea in a totally different way - he'll have me or whoever is assisting him use a very short trigger sample (ie exactly the same region, with no overlaps even on fast fills) the whole way through the song - then using pro tools' "replace all identical regions" drag-and-drop from the audio pool, he can audition different samples very quickly.

Personally I like it when the sample follows the velocity of the original track a bit - not that easy when tab and dropping samples.
Interesting as I have always thought of replacing region names to audition samples but never got around to trying that.

I've found though you have to work backward using TAB/Paste ie ... start and the end of the song and work toward the start. Then you need to adjust the overlaping regions from the start working toward the finish. That way there are no gaps and the first sample ends where the next sample starts.

Rather time consuming but better than using Beat Detective and having to re align all the hits then play through to find the out of phase ones.For some reason this affects snares more than Kick Drum.
Old 7th April 2009
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BushmasterM4 View Post
Oh well. Sound replacer is a ProTools only plugin. That stinks
There are quite a few similar plugs for other DAWs. DP has one built in.
Old 7th April 2009
  #51
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidwilson View Post
I've found though you have to work backward using TAB/Paste ie ... start and the end of the song and work toward the start. Then you need to adjust the overlaping regions from the start working toward the finish. That way there are no gaps and the first sample ends where the next sample starts.

Rather time consuming but better than using Beat Detective and having to re align all the hits then play through to find the out of phase ones.For some reason this affects snares more than Kick Drum.
I can't see why you'd need to work backwards?!

Two ways you can get round this - use the up and down keys (p and and a fresh track for your new sample - tab to transient, hit ";" to go down to the fresh track, paste the sample, hit "p" to go back up again, (selector is still where it was, not at the end of your pasted sample), tab to next transient and on you go. Much quicker than the method you describe, which I guess you're using 1 track, and pasting over with the sample.

A slightly quicker but a bit more fiddly is to put your original sample on a stereo track (ie duplicate the mono track, and drag the regions to a stereo track) temporarily - if you group your (mono) sample replacement track with your (stereo) original track, with the new blank track on top, you can tab and paste without having to move up and down - since the mono sample won't paste on the stereo track. you have to keep an eye on this a little, sometimes you can drop a sample at the end of the pasted region instead of a new transient, but generally it's a quicker method (if harder to describe!).

I don't see why you'd use beat detective for sample replacement either - it's not the right tool for the job! Unless you mean to separate the hits, then tab to region to replace instead of transient...that'd work, although be no quicker than tab to transient.

FWIW if you're NOT listening through and double checking every hit, you're not doing a good enough job and you don't deserve to be hired for doing it. I probably take a bit longer than some people on here to replace or BD drums. However, I doubt there's many people who do a more thorough job, and that's what's important to me.
Old 7th April 2009
  #52
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Oops yeh I ment Sound Replacer not Beat Detective.

I've thought about the up/down keystrokes on the adjacent original track thing but for some reason stuck with this way, you can get through pretty quickly. Maybe I'll try it next time.

If there is a roll or some type of fill I can use the gain plug to adjust the volume to match the original where some like the feature that Sound Replacer can match the velocity.

This get use on toms more than anything.

It's good to see how others approach it.
Old 7th April 2009
  #53
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I'm a Nuendo user using drumagog with Slate samples which I love and if I absolutely must time align, which is usually only in a short section like a transition or a fill, I'll rewire Ableton Live which does it for me automatically. Unfortunately, I don't feel Steinberg has ever made it easy to align palm mutes or drum hits amongst mutliple tracks easily. Beat Detective is the one jealousy I have with Pro-Tools. Also, that is can use the McDsp stuff, but that's another thread - lol.
Old 8th April 2009
  #54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwi View Post
It's about time saving & convenience - why do something that's already been done rather well? No different from buying a hardware midi instrument in my book ...
I can make a great snare sample in 5 minutes.

Guitar Center is 15 minutes away.

I can't see how it isn't more convenient to make your own samples.


Plus, you don't have to search through a whole library to find the right sound.
Old 8th April 2009
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebridges View Post
step 1: buy pro tools
step 2: use beat detective

Rail is completely correct...this is how you can edit drums by hand. although, PT's BD will do this exact thing for you in minimal time. i've edited drums on hundreds of professional songs (sorry, someone was going to get paid to do it)...and i can edit a track of drums using BD in 30mins-1hour. if it's horrible playing or poorly tracked, maybe an hour and a half.

you have to learn how to use it well, but if you plan on editing more than a handful of drum tracks in your lifetime, learn to use BD and you will save yourself from going bald by pulling your hair out.
Except beat detective is not accurate.

The precise start of a waveform is subjective, and BD always makes bad choices.

Techincally/pedantically, the only way to get it exact is to match to programmed drums and nudge by ear listening to the combfiltering.

Most drummers can't tell the difference, but the good ones can.

Beat Detective and Sound Replacer audibly change the timing of the performance.

Less so, or not at all with the Ddrum triggers mentioned earlier.


What I can't figure out is why people don't track with the drum triggers triggering the samples. Too old school I guess. Far more efficient though.
Old 8th April 2009
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
Except beat detective is not accurate.

The precise start of a waveform is subjective, and BD always makes bad choices.

.
If you use it in collection mode and check the hits you get damn close .
Old 8th April 2009
  #57
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Beyersound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
I can make a great snare sample in 5 minutes.

Guitar Center is 15 minutes away.

I can't see how it isn't more convenient to make your own samples.


Plus, you don't have to search through a whole library to find the right sound.
How dare you make your own snare samples! It can't possibly be that easy! Isn't that un-american? Isn't that why AIG went broke? Credit default sample swaps? Never mind, they don't really make samples do they? OK, +1 for you!!!!!!
Old 8th April 2009
  #58
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
I can make a great snare sample in 5 minutes.

Guitar Center is 15 minutes away.

I can't see how it isn't more convenient to make your own samples.


Plus, you don't have to search through a whole library to find the right sound.
Mike,you can make your own sample because you have acces to quality studio with quality musician,90% of the poster here never been to a quality studio and don't have acces
to quality musician
Old 8th April 2009
  #59
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Mike Brown's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
Techincally/pedantically, the only way to get it exact is to match to programmed drums and nudge by ear listening to the combfiltering.

Most drummers can't tell the difference, but the good ones can.

Beat Detective and Sound Replacer audibly change the timing of the performance.


?

Do you not cut triggers when you use Sound Replacer?

I make the choice of where the waveform starts FOR Sound Replacer then it fills in the samples & dynamics.

A tiny bit of nudging and then every sample has the exact same timing/phase relationship with the original "live" drum.

DDrum & those things are alright and are great live, however the problem is sample accuracy... I still have to go through each one by hand anyway... So i might as well just use the plugin I have.


Most of the samples I use are from the drumkit that was recorded for that song. I mix the samples in underneath to have a very natural clean gate effect.

Then when mix time comes instead of over EQing things I will reach for old samples i've made or Steven Slate samples to augment the sound. Need more crack? Ill add some of this cool piccilo snare I recorded once... etc etc etc
Old 8th April 2009
  #60
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In PT, I create an empty track above whatever track I want to add samples to, group them and copy the sample to the clipboard. Then zoom in nice and big and tab-to-transient and paste the sample from the clipboard (V). That way I go through the song once and it is perfectly phase coherent and doesn't need any twiddling and you're only using two buttons. Shimples.

If you want to audition samples then you can use the placed samples as your triggers with SoundReplacer and have several versions on different playlists.

I find making a good sample of the guy's drumkit you're actually mixing sounds MUCH more natural than using library samples.
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