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Lemur COntrol Surface
Old 22nd July 2005
  #1
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Lemur COntrol Surface

http://www.cycling74.com/products/lemur.html

Any idea/thoughts on this ?

Hadi
www.hadisumoro.com
Old 22nd July 2005
  #2
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~ufo~'s Avatar
Dude that's like, totally kewl!

If only Scotty were alive to see this
Old 22nd July 2005
  #3
j.m
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You should take a look on the product videos:

lemur - jazzmutants


serious fun.


but I think it's quite a pricey toy.
Old 30th July 2005
  #4
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I was playing with the Jazz Editor, trying to configure a mixing surface. Looks pretty cool, though I'm not sure how this ball thing will work for panning.

I think with Jack OS X you could use the Lemur for DAW mixing. I bet it would be pretty tedious to set up, but it does appear to be possible. I got tired and didn't add the last 2 faders to this, but you can see the idea at least.
Attached Thumbnails
Lemur COntrol Surface-lemurmix.jpg  
Old 30th July 2005
  #5
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cool, but not $2500 cool IMO.....
Old 30th July 2005
  #6
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I'm imagining a mixing surface or console based on this concept, and it looks really slick, in my mind! The Lemur is designed to be more of a live performance instrument/controller.

I'm just going to buy a Tascam US 2400, because I'm sick of mouse mixing in Logic right now. Don't want to get carpal tunnel syndrome from the mouse.

Plus the Tascam hooks up to your DAW with a single USB cable. They have a $200 rebate right now too, so if you get one for $1,499, that's only $1,299 after rebate for a 25 fader mix controller. That's about $50 per fader. Not bad.

The Mixed Logic controller looks nicer, but it's twice as much $. Or a Mackie Controller perhaps?
Old 1st August 2005
  #7
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I use a "Logic Control" from Mackie
The thing I like best is that there are physical buttons assigned to carpal-tunnel inducing activities, for example on the Mackie device, the button in the upper right corner closes the topmost window, be it a plugin, edit window, etc. Chasing the little close box around the screen can get really fiddly, but your arm can find that button in the dark.

I do not think that an interface without tactile feedback of some sort will offer much of an improvement in speed.

What about this:

http://www.wacom.com/lcdtablets/audio.cfm
Old 1st August 2005
  #8
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hey zmix - Yeah, the Lemur looks a lot like a Wacom graphics tablet. Good points about the tactile sensation not being there with a touch screen.

I guess the Logic control is similar to the Mackie Control. Are you happy with it?

As I probably mentioned above in this thread, I'm also looking at the Tascam US-2400 and the Mixed Logic M24. I know the Mackie has the best integration with Logic though, but some people do seem to be happy with the other units as well.

As far as mixing on that Wacom tablet with a pen, no way. I get cramps from writing eventually, and I'm sure this would be no different.
Old 1st August 2005
  #9
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Mackie control?

Two words:

Parameter display

This is a huge part of the integration of the Logic control, your track names and other parameters are displayed on the chanel strip.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #10
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I'm speaking of the Mackie Control Universal, which I understand is pretty much made for Logic. Are you saying the MCU doesn't have this feature which the Logic Control does? I'm pretty sure that the MCU can be run in Logic Control mode.

Here's a quote from Dec 03' Sound on Sound that explains it.

Quote:
While the first releases of Logic and Mackie Control (including the XT units) were basically the same hardware, the units differed in the way they communicated with the host software — there was no way Logic Control could be used to control anything other than Logic, and, similarly, there was no way Mackie Control could be used to control Logic. This was particularly annoying for Windows Logic users who'd been left stranded by Emagic, although at least Emagic made steps to open Logic Control support to other manufacturers by releasing the technical details of the protocol used to communicate with Logic Control.

However, imagine my delight when the situation radically changed as I was finishing this review. Logic and Mackie Control users can now download MIDI files to upgrade their base and XT units so that Logic Control gains Mackie Control functionality, and Mackie Control gains Logic Control functionality. But perhaps the biggest news is that Mackie Control itself has now been transformed into Mackie Control Universal, which combines the behaviours of Mackie Control, Logic Control and HUI into a single unit that should be available by the time you read this. This also means that once the current stocks have been sold, Logic Control won't be available as a separate product any more, and Logic users will need to buy Mackie Control Universal instead.

Mackie are using the Logic Control front panel labelling by default for Mackie Control Universal, and are supplying additional Lexan Overlays for Digidesign's Pro Tools, MOTU's Digital Performer, Cakewalk's Sonar, Syntrillium's Cool Edit Pro, and Steinberg's SX and Nuendo, with additional Lexan Overlays available from Mackie's web site as before. Existing Mackie or Logic Control users will be able to upgrade to Mackie Control Universal functionality by ordering the upgrade kit available mentioned in the Pro Tools box, although the only reason for doing this is if you require HUI support.
Old 2nd August 2005
  #11
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So.. what is the question?
Old 2nd August 2005
  #12
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I guess there isn't one. I thought you were suggesting that Logic Control had something that the MCU didn't as far as Logic integration. I believe they are basically the same at this point.

I think I'm going to get a Mixed Logic M24 instead though.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #13
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I was trying to comment on the level of integration that the mackie has with Logic. Things I never would have looked for in a controller are now indispensable to me. The mackie has a large LED display for transport position in SMPTE or Bars:beats in addition to the LCD display above the channel strips.
The switches are easy to locate, and the labeling is nice, too. I'm happy that I didn't get the tascam (was my 1st choice). I do wish that logic's key commands could be reprogrammed to alter a few of the switches, but no big deal...

The Mixed Logic seems interesting, but $8995??? That's nearly 20 times what I paid for my Logic control! Will all that information clustered in a small LCD be too confusing? How will the user programmed switches be labeled?

I would love to hear your feedback once you 've lived with it for a while.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #14
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The Mixed Logic is selling for $2,880. Not sure where you saw that other figure.

Thanks for the info on Logic/Mackie Control. It does appear to have the best integration w/ Logic, which I would expect. Maybe I'll reconsider. We'll see.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunn
The Mixed Logic is selling for $2,880. Not sure where you saw that other figure.
I saw it on IMA's website.

They are the manufacturer and they have the figure at the bottom of this page:

http://www.innovativemusic.com.au/Pr....htm?M24.htm&2
Old 3rd August 2005
  #16
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That's an Australian website, and I don't think that is the manufacturer. Here's a link to the manufacturer's page.

Mixed Logic link
Old 3rd August 2005
  #17
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Mea Culpa. So sorry. Seemed to be a bit too much money...
Old 3rd August 2005
  #18
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Yeah, I'd expect something that looked more like an AMS Neve for that kind of money!

On the M24, each channel has a soft key that can be assigned to different functions. I'm not sure of how everything works, but I doubt it can do everything the Mackie Control/Logic Control can with regards to Logic.

Still, I like the fact that it's well built and the faders have a bit more weight to them. Are you able to do accurate fades with your Logic Control, or do find that you have to do them over or correct them a lot?
Old 3rd August 2005
  #19
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Are you joking? The LC uses P&G faders. These are fantastic, and state of the art in motorized control, same as SSL , Neve, etc.
Old 3rd August 2005
  #20
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No, I'm not joking. I know they're P&G Faders, but I've also heard that they're a little on the light side. Probably similar to a Euphonix console, which was also pretty light as I recall.

Maybe if the kids who work at the Guitar Center nearest to my house would set one up instead of putting them in a glass case with CD players leaning up against them, I'd be able to try the faders myself. I'll go to the Sherman Oaks store. They have more of a clue there.
Old 4th August 2005
  #21
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There are no "heavy" motorized faders - with the exception of the old string driven Neve Necam faders, talk about stiff! The faders need to move rapidly and quietly. I think that the LC faders feel enough like the ultimation faders. I see that the Mixed Logic device uses Alps faders... these will have more viscous grease along the track and likely feel "heavy" .
What are the fader caps made of? They look like plastic, are they anodized black aluminum?
Old 4th August 2005
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmix

This is a huge part of the integration of the Logic control, your track names and other parameters are displayed on the chanel strip.
Yeah, but I think that display sucks since I mix up the names when they go like "acscgt" instead of "acoustic git". I work with around 30 tracks most of the time so that can be confusing sometimes. Fine if it works for you, though !

Regards,
Bill thumbsup
Old 4th August 2005
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billster
Yeah, but I think that display sucks since I mix up the names when they go like "acscgt" instead of "acoustic git". I work with around 30 tracks most of the time so that can be confusing sometimes. Fine if it works for you, though !

Regards,
Bill thumbsup
True. Pro Tools does the same thing ONSCREEN!!

I like that the Mackie can follow the arrange window track order, instad of just the mixer window track order. This makes grouping tracks easier.

Ifind that renaming tracks "AG-2a" is easy enough to do in Logic, so no complaints here...
Old 4th August 2005
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yphs_mst
I´ve been thinking about that kind of implementation since two years, but I just don´t have the know how and / or money to realize something like this.

Could be a nice way of working. I tried a regular graphic table (Wacom Intuos) and that way of working has its pros and cons. I´d like to work like this...

http://www.wacom.com/lcdtablets/index.cfm

...but that´s too expensive for me right now.

Cheers,
Bill
Old 4th August 2005
  #25
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Billster,

Yes, that could be interesting indeed.
Please read the previous posts in this thread. The Wacom page was linked (seventh post in the thread), specifically the DAW specific application page. It's a lot of money ($1799)


As Al Jaffee once said "Don't worry , those signs don't apply to illiterates"
Old 4th August 2005
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmix
Billster,

Yes, that could be interesting indeed.
Please read the previous posts in this thread. The Wacom page was linked (seventh post in the thread), specifically the DAW specific application page. It's a lot of money ($1799)


As Al Jaffee once said "Don't worry , those signs don't apply to illiterates"
Sorry, I thought this thread was interesting, but only had time for one track bounce to read it entirely heh

Let´s get back to work...
Bill
Old 4th August 2005
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zmix
There are no "heavy" motorized faders - with the exception of the old string driven Neve Necam faders, talk about stiff! The faders need to move rapidly and quietly. I think that the LC faders feel enough like the ultimation faders. I see that the Mixed Logic device uses Alps faders... these will have more viscous grease along the track and likely feel "heavy" .
What are the fader caps made of? They look like plastic, are they anodized black aluminum?
The Alps faders used on the Mixed Logic M24 are not conductive. They did this so the faders wouldn't be susceptible to humidity, and for a few other reasons that I can't think of right now. Oh yeah, you don't have to hold your finger on the fader for the duration of the entire automation pass on the M24.

The caps are plastic I believe, but that doesn't bother me. I haven't decided yet, but the M24 does have a lot of nice features when used with Logic. Here's a list from their site.


Quote:
24 channels each with a motorized fader, dedicated pan control and switches for channel select, solo, mute and record enable.
Bank swapping and channel swapping to access all additional tracks.
Bi-directional control of audio and midi tracks, aux returns and masters with extensive automation.
8 rotary controls and 8 switches dedicated to effect send levels, pre / post or send mute, pan modes and input and output assignments for the currently selected channel.
Assignment of auxiliary send destinations.
5 controls and 8 switches dedicated to extensive real-time control and assignment of plug-in effects that each display control name and value to the LCD.
Each control displays track name, control name and value or assignment to the M24 LCD display.
The LCD also displays 24 scribble strip track names for the selected bank.
Open and navigate windows.
Individual channel automation mode select, and automation parameter enable with support for all six automations modes with features that enhance each mode.
Jog wheel for audio scrubbing and shuttling.
Complete transport controls.
Zoom and navigation modes.
Synchronized Fader Flip mode allowing all faders to control send and pan levels.
Control of editing functions.
Control and creation of channel fader groups.
Control of surround panning and selection of surround modes.
New Vertical Pan Mode will let you access pan or send levels or assign input or output routing for 24 channels at the same time.
Old 4th August 2005
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdunn
The Alps faders used on the Mixed Logic M24 are not conductive. They did this so the faders wouldn't be susceptible to humidity, and for a few other reasons that I can't think of right now.
$$$$ pure and simple.. humidity does NOT affect the touch sensor in a fader... sounds like BS to me.

Quote:
Oh yeah, you don't have to hold your finger on the fader for the duration of the entire automation pass on the M24.
Same on the LC. However, it is nice to simply touch and write a move... just like a real console.

It seems like the Mixed Logic has a number of compromises in terms of it's physical design, like no touch faders, no locator, all track names clustered in one LCD off to the side.

I would love to have a controller like the LC but with a few different features like 270 degree pots instead of those damn encoders... it's impossible to get a feel for a parameter range without end stops. OK, I know that on the LC you merely press "Flip" and all the "V-pot" parameters are adusted by using the motorized faders. And I also know that the encoders have a selectable degree of sensitivity (pressing option while rotating selects 'fine' mode if so desired).

Where did I put my CAD CAM system.....?
Old 4th August 2005
  #29
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My first thought was economics too. Here's their reasoning.

Quote:
The M24 faders are touch sensitive in the sense that they will release automatically when the user touches a fader that is already moving and then send a automation write message to the host. We usually refer to this method as touch release and this differs from some of the other touch sensitive faders systems in that it is not dependent on the person’s conductivity in their skin to sense they have touched a fader. This basic method could also be referred to as position sensitive and other systems have used some form of this method before with varying success. The problem is that most other systems used methods of controlling the fader motors that did not allow for touch release and many had non-intuitive methods for performing automation updates. Faders on these systems would fight you if you touched one that was moving and had no simple way to release and update the automation data.

After a lot of research we chose not to use conductive faders because of the many problems relating to reliability differences from person to person, problems with different environments and humidity. Conductive faders require that you leave your finger on the fader for the duration of the punch in and even if you are not moving the fader, the fader can still be writing more than one value if the fader has any significant resolution. This is a large waste of automation memory and many designers will limit the resolution during the time the fader is not moving to overcome this problem negating any advantage. The main advantage to a conductive fader is that the software can sense the release and know when to send the automation message. The M24 does not require you’re finger to remain on a fader to achieve the same thing.

We feel that the method chosen for the M24 is a combination of the strengths of both methods. The faders do a touch release and don’t send any unnecessary erroneous automation data. The M24 also offers more than one method of automation update and effectively increases the number of automation modes provided by the host software while simplifying the process. This is why the M24 does not have or need silver fader knobs. We didn’t think they looked that cool anyway… If you disagree with us, the silver knobs can be ordered as an option.
I'll probably go for the Mackie Control for now anyway, as it's 1/3 the price and setup perfectly for Logic.
Old 4th August 2005
  #30
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What a bunch of marketing nonsense. The Yamaha 02R rev 2 had a similar "touch sense" using existing non conductive faders. The reality is that you MUST move these faders in order to have your input recognized. so there goes your "precious" automation memory..

The LC allows you to create points in the automation rubber band by merely touching the fader. then you can easily raise and lower those regions using the mouse.

One more point. The fader touch sensitivity is a preference built into Logic.

I hate to sound like I'm schilling for Mackie. I own NO other mackie products. I thought the original Pro control sucked ( the monitor pot was digital and introduced quantization noise!) and the d8b is perhaps the worst mixer I've ever used (It used to crash... SSL never crashed on me!)

I bought the LC from GC for $499 as a demo. I can't believe how much use it gets.


I want a hard wired 270 degree knob for quick logic parameter access. Anyone??
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