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Waves L2 hardware Vs Software - interesting!
Old 23rd August 2003
  #31
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I wouldn't discount it totally.....i bit o' digital clipping can occasionaly work on something like a snare drum transient that's popping 15db above the rest of the mix.......just skim that little sucker off and no-one's the wiser knudge knudge wink wink......yeah, but generally it's an idiotic thing to do unless you actually enjoy the sound of sizzling sausages in your music
Old 23rd August 2003
  #32
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No, I do not understand it, not when I do it in Paris. And not to offend, but neither do you.

I DO understand it when I do it on PT, Nuendo, Logic, SX, etc. Or with any Native or TDM plugin, for that matter. In all of those cases, it's a very bad thing. Sounds like crap. Doo-doo. One of my least favorite sounds of all time. I would never go there.

However, when you do it in Paris, it's very similar to loading up analog tape, only cleaner. But not like any emulating plugin I've heard. Similar tone to pushing a good 2" machine, and no digital clipping sound at all, until you really push it, then it lets go gradually like an analog circuit. Incapable of making that digital "CLACK" sound that I do truly hate so much, I never want to hear it again if possible. Keep in mind that the hardware DSP used in Paris is proprietary and shrouded in a bit of mystery. Supposedly 56 bits deep and designed from the ground up for only audio. Somebody did something very right there, whether or not it was on purpose.

This is what drives me nuts on this subject. You guys are all speaking from the same digital audio paradigm, but this thing really is unique, and I have never, a single time, had a DAW owner in my place who did not freak out when they saw and heard what I am talking about. I believe you can count Lynn Fuston from 3D Audio among the freaked.

I'm starting a new thread called "Let's DO IT already!" to persue this further. You cannot imagine how weary I am of people telling me "facts" about something I've used every day for years (and mixed a bunch of hit singles on, FWIW), but that they have never used themselves, for even a single day.

It's just so odd. My word or opinion has pretty decent general credibility it seems, but when I talk about this subject, which admitedly most other people have zero experience in, all of the sudden I apparently become a raving loonie. Based upon what? Based upon the fact that their DAW sounds like crap when pushed in this way, therefore ALL DAWs must do the same, right? For years I've been saying that I just smack the thing around, analog style, ignoring visual indications and just listening. I would never do that on another DAW. What about that is so hard to understand, guys? Obviously, something isn't clicking, so I will attempt to show you what I mean.

Maybe we will discover I'm wrong, and in that case, I'll say so and shutup about this. Will I get the same consideration from others?



Regards,
Brian T
Old 23rd August 2003
  #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
. I believe you can count Lynn Fuston from 3D Audio among the freaked.

Regards,
Brian T
i thought pyramix and sequoia fared just as well as paris? from the general consensus? maybe thats just what i wanted to see since i use samplitude now...*shrug
Old 23rd August 2003
  #34
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It's pretty easy to check.........push something (a mix) up into this mystery ceiling in Paris.......i mean, push it up to where it should be clipped but you still think it sounds ok.......bounce or record the result.........now drop the resulting file 10db or so and carefully examine the waveform......if it's a pure flat-top then it's clipped and we're sending round the loony van to pick you up.....if the edges of the wave are rounded and it never shows more then a few consecutive full scale samples, then something clever is going on, or maybe you just didn't push it far enough......it's generally considered that 2 or 3 consec' clips is inaudible except on things like solo piano......

Different sorts of limiting look very different in the wave file...L2 (rounded), clipping (flatter then a witches tit) , Apogee soft limit (pinched)....they all look different
Old 23rd August 2003
  #35
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Teacher
i thought pyramix and sequoia fared just as well as paris? from the general consensus? ...
Brian isn't talking about resolution losses in the mix buss, he's talking about a mixer that's been modeled after a combination of how analog mixers and tape sound. There is no comparable product available that I'm aware of so any comparison is of apples to oranges. He isn't saying it's the "best," whatever that is, he's saying it's way cool and a lot of people agree with him. The Paris files I've mastered were definitely NOT just clipped.
Old 23rd August 2003
  #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by jazzius
It's pretty easy to check.........push something (a mix) up into this mystery ceiling in Paris.......i mean, push it up to where it should be clipped but you still think it sounds ok.......bounce or record the result.........now drop the resulting file 10db or so and carefully examine the waveform......if it's a pure flat-top then it's clipped and we're sending round the loony van to pick you up.....if the edges of the wave are rounded and it never shows more then a few consecutive full scale samples, then something clever is going on, or maybe you just didn't push it far enough......it's generally considered that 2 or 3 consec' clips is inaudible except on things like solo piano......

Different sorts of limiting look very different in the wave file...L2 (rounded), clipping (flatter then a witches tit) , Apogee soft limit (pinched)....they all look different

I've been there and done that, starting with analog gear back in about 1979, with a dual trace Techtronics scope that lived in my control room. I spent many years of my life looking at the input vs output of any number of pieces of gear, in realtime, while mixing. I ended up teaching myself electronics in order to modify most of the things I owned. Trident Series 80s, Studer, MCI, Ampex machines, DBX 160s, etc. I built the world's very first transformerless Studer 2" 24 track along the way, in the early 80's, based upon weeks of comparing the input to tape output on transient waveforms. It was an A80 Narrow 24 track, and when I finished, it sounded mighty fine, BTW.

My point is, trust me, I know a bit about correllating waveform displays to how something sounds. And at this point in my life, I no longer care. At all. We do not watch music, we listen to it.

So my counter to your suggestion would be this. How about listening to how it sounds, deciding if it sounds good or bad, then looking at the waveform? And if it sounds good, but doesn't look like you want it to, do you leave it sounding good, or change it to make it look "right"?

I think one of the biggest problems with digital audio is people spending waaaay too much time looking at music, and not enough listeing with their eyes closed. Remember the story about Roy Thomas Baker, the engineer and the meters?


Regards,
Brian T
Old 23rd August 2003
  #37
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jazzius's Avatar
 

You already said you think its clipping sounds ok......so if you can't be bothered to spend 5 minutes looking to see if it actually is clipped or not, that's your problem....personally i couldn't give a toss.
Old 23rd August 2003
  #38
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BTW, i've got some custom metering that shows me exactly how something was compressed or limited....if you're having trouble deciphering how paris squashes the 2-mix, steer me a file and i'll take a look.
Old 24th August 2003
  #39
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Robotnik's Avatar
 

L2 is garbage. Low-end doods that think they're "mastering engineers" use it.
Old 24th August 2003
  #40
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Robotnik's Avatar
 

To each their own.
I think L2 sucks. You can't prove me wrong.

Paris? Never been there. I'd like to visit...after the heatwave passes.
Old 24th August 2003
  #41
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jazzius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Robotnik
L2 is garbage. Low-end doods that think they're "mastering engineers" use it.
Muppet
Old 24th August 2003
  #42
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jazzius's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by bombguy
what he said
LOL!
Old 24th August 2003
  #43
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e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by BrianT
No, I do not understand it, not when I do it in Paris........

Regards,
Brian T
Really Brian that's all you had to say. No need to hijack a thread. I'll address the rest of your message over at your Let's Do It thread.
Old 26th August 2003
  #44
Gear Nut
 
bopmachine's Avatar
 

Im no ME, but was at a recent Mastering session here in the UK. As a last resort the ME used PSP vintagewarmer and it worked - really well. He had already been through L1 & L2, UAD LA2A (close but no enchilada for what we were doing. I have this and do like and use it for mixing, tho), as well as hardware by pheonix, STC and Manly. Not sure what it was, and dont think it would be the same every time, but this time it was exactly as called for this time. We didnt want really loud, and the music was plain old rockabilly - Slap doghouse bass, telecaster, acoustic guitar and vocals. I think it was the slap doghouse that threw the limiters. Need lots of low mids to get the thump and then there are the transients on the slap. Couldn't tame one without aversly effecting the other.

Just goes to show you that you never know!
Old 27th August 2003
  #45
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I think the L2 sucks. After hating the L1 I was curious to see if the L2 didn't suck, but nope, it sucks. Any high end mastering engineer I've gone to clips the A/D pretty good after coming out of a compressor to level the snare down a bit first. Then they give it a tiny bit of peak limiting for an extra kick. Its laughable how some guys just push the L2 all the way down till its as loud as commercial stuff. Of course by the time it gets there, the track sounds tiny as a pea, has no impact, and the whole sound is smeared to crap.

For my home masters, I go into a Ramsa AD 96 and push it into the red with the kick and snare. There is this magic point of any good A/D where it actually makes your transients get punchier as it clips them. Veird. Anyway, after overloading the A/D, I put it up in Samplitude and its already loud and thick. I put a TIMEWORKS LIMITER on it and pull it down a db or two, and bingo, she's done. If you want to hear what this sounds like, I have a home mastered tune I did like this at www.blacklinerock.com its called RUN. Some may find it interesting that tomorrow I will re master it but this time I will use the Lynx II for both A/D and D/A instead of the Ramsa so you can hear what it sounds like to clip the Lynx II. Fuck it, I'm feeling helpful today. I'll also print a mix where I keep the mix in the DAW and use an L2 to get the mix equally as loud as the clip mix to show the difference the two approaches create. This will all be posted to the soon to be www.blacklinerock.com/gearslutztests check in two days. Till then you can hear how the Ramsa clips.
Steve
Old 27th August 2003
  #46
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Gie-Sound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Bang
There is this magic point of any good A/D where it actually makes your transients get punchier as it clips them. Veird.
Over the years I have heard a lot of people say that clipping the AD will "tiny" the sound....
Now I hear a lot of you say: clip!, NO L1

Are we getting wiser, or is it just like fashion?!heh

BTW: in fashion the 80ties are comming back... I hope the music doesn't follow this trend
Old 27th August 2003
  #47
Why clip indevidual signals on the way in to your DAW when you can CLIP EM ALL AT MASTERING!





heh
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