yeah but those boobs are on too young of girls now... though i remeber many sets of perfect real boobs from my youth [oh the daze]

it's true -- when video processing becomes such that non-existent subjects are portrayed as indistinguishably real (and used in "real" contexts -- such as news, interviews, cultural mirrors) -- we will truly have entered into an unfamiliar epoch in human history and those of you that are saying this has been around forever are in for a surprise.

I would suggest that that is precisely where the human race has gone wrong. We have set ourselves apart and continue to flounder in a sea of ignorance.

Wrong. We have mastered nothing. All we've done, as you so poignantly pointed out, is paved over this beautiful planet, and in the process lost any meaningful relationship with it.

Yes, are existence is indeed fake.

Gee...Whew! Thank goodness you are on the job to keep us all in check and maintain the industry...Cause goodness knows nobody here gives a **** ....Carry the torch?...I am hearing the theme for Rocky as I root for the underdog defender of Pro Audio integrity..."na na na...na na na na na"...May you keep your spirit strong and forge ahead young padowan...!!!

Of course you know I'm FN' with you...because your statement , although possibly unbeknownst to you...is an insult to most everyone on the board here. Audio Integrity? Yes I believe that is what the discussion of high-end gear, techniques and strategies represent.

The human element? Wouldn't that be all of us? My P-Bass doesn't play itself...And melodyne doesn't boot up by it's self and correct pitch on it's own.

Cheers...!

P&B,

Of course I understand that the human element already exists in everything that comes out of a studio but maybe I should've said it this way...There are facets of the human element that are being erased in order to deliver a flawless "product". I know you understand where I'm coming from but your getting into semantics and that's not what I meant. I wasn't knocking everyone here. Anyone can choose to use the methods of post production that have been listed earlier but I personally don't dig it. It doesn't mean that I don't like you because you decided to use drum replacement or auto tune and I'm not implying that you even care if I like you or not. I'm speaking generally and my point is easily found in my first post here. Integrity is not something that everyone cares about and it probably means different things to different people but PERSONALY, I want honest music done in an honest way with feeling and emotion and grit and whatever else. Beat detective is not my bag. Autotune? Are you ****ing kidding me? Do you think Sinatra or Hendrix used autotune? Hendrix was no where near the singer that Sinatra was but that's exactly what I'm getting at. I'd rather hear the sweat or tears in a voice than hear a perfect note. Would you want to date a woman that insisted on waring a mask every time you went out with her? You'd probably want to see her for what she really is, right? But let's not get into a debate over autotune. I was only trying to make a point. And I think that if you're doing a session for a label that wants it "perfect", then you'll do things in order to deliver what they want but if it's your own project, I think you'd treat it differently. To each his own.
Integrity is important to me and I think living in Los Angeles makes you aware of things like this a little more than say...Tulsa. Don't take it personally...or do so if you have to. What do I matter? I'm just a guy.
Jason

Sorry, but this strikes me as an incongruous analog.
A better example might be: if someone you know had a physical deformity and resorted to plastic surgery to correct it, would you hold it against them?
Or, even the use of makeup to conceal blemishes would be a more appropriate analogy, right?

And, since when does [insert controversial technology here] inhibit your ability to perceive the "sweat and tears"? (...any more than tubes, mics, windscreens, de-essers, eq's, compressors, etc.) That is, I don't think "sweat and tears" and the "perfect note" are mutually exclusive.

b :*

In the beginning I was giving a nod to a guy who asked a question and related his feelings on a certain topic (which you can access at the top of this thread). I had no intention of debating these things. I understand this is a discussion and it's supposed to go back and forth but these are old debates here. Some people use certain gear to achieve things and others use other things. Some people manipulate with delays and flanging etc... and others "use makeup to conceal blemishes" and some don't. In all honesty and respect, I am a minority in this thread and I very proud of that. I'm not going to get into it with you all. You win this round. I'm a young guy with an old-school mentality. I use a tape machine, as much to 100% analog gear as possible, I don't like amps with master volumes (I know, that sounds silly...even to me but...), I won't buy new guitars unless I have to and I like it that way. These rules are broken from time to time by me and I'm okay with it. I, Me, I like it that way. It doesn't absolutely HAVE to be that way but in my own world, that's what makes me happy. Power tube distortion sounds better to me than pre-amp distortion. Sound replacement is not fun to me. I don't want to hit a key and replace the kick that took me hours to get down with something in a computer that I didn't create. I want to create that sound in a room. I want to be able to sing and hit the note. If I can't hit the note, it might be okay. If I can't hit any of the notes, then I won't do the singing. If my drummer can't keep a beat that's in time but 90% IS in time, that's fine. If he's all over the fuccking place and it seriously sucks, then I'll get another drummer. I want to be surrounded by others that are super great at what they do. If I do that, then I won't have to use tools to correct problems. I want it done right by the person doing it. Manipulation with compression and effects is fantastic. I love it. Correcting garbage and polishing the shhit in time to give it to the major label guys so they can put it on the radio and sell millions of records to the ignorant who don't realize what flippin' joke that "artist" is... THat doesn't fly with me. And I don't like POD's or amp simulators either. So sue me.
I'm out.
Jason

p.s. I didn't think that this way of thinking was so foreign to everyone. Jesus Christ!

You mean these?

VVV

...Meaning who?

...Meaning who?

Do you think they used the Internet?

You just said it...it DOES mean different things to different people. So....since you have no idea of what it means to those who employ modern tools...you actually can't say Integrity doesn't exist amongst us wannabees and talentless.

Only if it made HER feel better...
My grandmother died of cancer years ago...She lost all of her hair during radiation treatment...but when she went out to the grocery store and to her Thursday night Bridge club, she just felt better putting on her wig. Was grandma without Integrity?
Uh' no...grandma kicked ass.

I see that you are passionate about your dislike for 'perfect' music...many folks here share your perspective but it is all OK...ALL of it.
Not a single person here is less contributive because they don't share
your 'values'.

It's not. That is the point. Have a pinch of faith and respect in your fellow musician / engineer. Take a sec to read the posts...

I respect your opinion..I hope it serves you in your goals.

P&B,

Cheerios.

Okay, I shouldn't have said "talentless and wannabees". I'm sorry. Okay? I didn't mean to sound so general.

I guess I'm speaking as a musician and not as an engineer. If you can be okay using those said tools on yourself, then great. I wish I wasn't so hard on myself. I can't live with it for some reason. It's the principle. (I know you're going to ream me for that one).

You're right. I have no idea what's it's like because I don't record people for a living. Maybe if I did and had to use those tools on hacks then I'd get used to it and respect if for the tool that it is.

We all make choices for certain reasons.

God, I feel like I got spanked here. So much for being honest.

You rip my post apart and then tell me that you respect my opinion? Are you kidding me?
If you respected my opinion, that would mean that you understand where I'm coming from. But you ask me to explain and explain and treat me as if I was a punk rocker in a truck stop in west texas as if you didn't understand what I meant. And you respect my opinion?

jason

p.s.
People on this board are so defensive about the littlest things. And people love to gang up on others like kids in the playground.
I admit, I am being defensive but because I am being ganged up on. I really didn't think of myself as a jerk. I do put my foot in my mouth on occation but I think it's because I speak my mind and cut to the point more than others sometimes. Of course I'm not saying that what I say is right all the time.

i can totally see both sides of this.

but, just forgetting the current industry demands for one second i think it would be great to just see what happened if all the current "stars" were forced to take off all the makeup and just play like a band. just for one record/tour. no clicks. no beat detective. no autotune. no samples. no guide vocals. just musicians playing their instruments. eq, edits, retakes, overdubs, panning, verb, fine!! best studer 24 track you can find w/ all your favorite outboard and a nice big mixing board? great!

i would like to hear that. it would quickly destroy all the non musicians who makes huge amounts of money as musicians and this would be a good thing for us all.

Hey Amplove, I wanted to pipe up much earlier but could not.

You're not alone. You're coming thru loud and clear.

That's all I got!

I wasn't intending to "gang up" on you, but rather to elucidate my own opinion that fear of technology is an unfortunate and unrealistic dogma to own.

I strongly disbelieve in the idea of a "pure sound" in this sense; it's an illusory notion, as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry for any misconstrued defensiveness or antagonism. No need to be defensive!

b :*

I'm speaking for myself here and not Amplove when I say that it's not at all a fear of technology so much as it's a lack of desire to resort to it or rely on it.

Because it's just not as satisfying, IMO.

No reason to be sorry...it was just a bit extreme for me.


Actually bud, I haven't reamed you for anything...not once. You had your opinion I had mine...I am only trying to steer ANYBODY clear of getting off the topic and turning this into some pointless 'anti' auto-tune brittney R&B' thread or worse....

You know alot of these great folks share thier time with us here on this board. A moticum of respect isn't out of line.

'Hacks'? Who? Name them.
Baby Face? Usher? Destiny's Child..Who? These guys....?

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/36760-few-real-r-amp-b-session-video-clips.html


Spanked? Not for being honest...I am only trying to point out the idea that "not all who wander are lost." Maybe you should try not to be so hard on folks when you have no reference point...

Yes Jason....I absolutley respect your opinion.

Explain yourself? You don't have to...your point is straight forward and obvious. I feel I need to keep beating the same point to you which is..."I get it..." "We get it"..."Your not alone in your dislike of autotune"...I understand your frustration with the current state of modern rock, pop and radio"... You like it raw and natural, good old blood sweat and tears...!!OK, point made.

The only thing that is frustrating is listening to someone get slammed who might implement the other side of the coin...Cause believe me there is ANOTHER side of the world.

There are bonafide artists with the deepest level of sincerity and creativity..I know a few of them...These cats have more integrity and soul than most folks I know...and they play or write electronica music...

That is thier gift, that is thier passion, that is thier outlet and soul...
Talentless? Ha. Most people only wish they had 1/2 of the skill.



BS...Don't get down on this board because you had a little attitude but instead of the usual nonsense you find yourself on a board where most people are willing, ready and able to have an intelligent debate...Embrace it, learn and move on.
BS again...nobody ganged up on you...and nobody thinks you are a jerk. I don't.

To be honest I appreciate passion and opinons in people...Just keep it real.

There is an old saying Jason that I personally find useful:
"You know what you know"..."You know what you don't know" and "You don't know what you don't know". Keep in mind where you stand on something. It helps me anyway.

I find that most folks around here just care about the reality of day to day existence more than heresy. That should give you an example of keeping it real.

Cheers...

Peace to you!

Someone said boobs in this thread and I sensed it, am now here and sorely disappointed.

War

Okay, here's an easier way to put it.

Don't make music like this:

<img src="http://img245.echo.cx/img245/9876/mjackson9uh.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />


Instead, make music like this:

























<img src="http://img245.echo.cx/img245/7706/christycanyon05036dm.jpg" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" />
Clear?
Sorry Jules, I had to do it.

mmmmmmmmm ..... pretty.




Amplove you're not alone ... but the other views are valid for them too.

When I record, it's GENERALLY to 2" and mix to 1/2" and I never autotune, and I prefer live takes, and I leave in warts ... but it's not reactionary against anything, it's FOR something.

Can you be for something ... without being against anything? This is not a very smart commercial posture, but it's a better life.

Lucey, I hear ya. I totally understand the other side as well. I guess for me, those certain tools are representative of where the music industry has gone over the course of time and they remind me of things that I'm against.
Luckily, I don't rely on a clientel for income. And I'm not really into recording others generally speaking. Friends are fun to experiment with I'd much rather concentrate on recording my projects. I never really intended to have an open to the public studio. Maybe in the future but I doubt it. It is nice getting paid afterwards though.
jason

Recording is an artifical process, but there ARE degrees of honesty and reality presented. That is an art in itself. I prefer to have my art be one of I work with reality as much as possible, rather than trying to create it myself.

I don't consider autotune any more "cheating" than overdubbing, but I think it SOUNDS way worse and gets tired very quickly, plus it loses the INDIVIDUALITY of flaws.

Repeat - the INDIVIDUALITY OF FLAWS. Repeat.

Trying to be distinct, not blending in with everything else. An important lesson... a hard choice to make.

Well, after spending the last hour drawing in a "singer's" pitch manually, I just had to chime in on this one.....

I HATE autotune, beat detective and the like... It goes against everything I enjoy about music. Outside of my work, I can't tolerate listening to more than about a minute of any of the "talentless hacks" that amplove alluded to. I don't care how narrow minded I sound, I feel that the bulk of today's pop stars are a bunch of pathetic wannabees that wouldn't/couldn't exist without techno-turd polishing. Could you imagine Ashley Simpson getting a record deal pre-MTV? I think not. Sure there has always been BAD pop music, but for the most part there was talent on SOME level. That was before image became more important that music. Sure image has always been important (Elvis et all....) but they had to back it up with SOMETHING!!! Once MTV became the industry's marketing vehicle of choice things shifted the other way. Image first, ability second. "Modern production tools" make me wanna puke.

Now...the flip side. I run a full time commercial studio in a semi-isolated rural area. There is very little in the way of actual talent in my immediate area. If I relied on talented clients, I would still be working some **** day job that I hated. Because I'm very good at making the lame sound listenable, I am very busy. If it weren't for these evil toys I wouldn't be able to do what i do for a living and get to live where I do. Somehow I'm able to swallow my pride and do this day in day out. Do I feel dirty? You bet I do. Would I rather get a day job? Not on your life.

How's that for a man-sized portion of hypocrisy?

-Z-

Actually I loved the truth and honesty of that post ... riveting. And not hypocritical at all, somehow.

classic post.

that's one of the funniest damn things i've read all week!

oh, and thanks for your honesty.


gregoire
del ubik

oh man, you CLEARLY never shopped for vinyl in the 70's. do people really not know how much awful music was created before mtv, and that the garbage to gold ratio has always been very, very high?

take those superhits of the 70's compilations... for each #1 hit, there was a #2-#100, and there's a reason no one is listening to those other 99. this all, of course, ignores the thousand or so releases every month which didn't even chart.

so i gotta respectfully disagree that "for the most part there was talent on SOME level." things don't strike me as terribly different these days, except that the crap is very well polished indeed.


gregoire
del ubik

so if the past was crap, the present is very well polished crap, the future is likely to be:

a) direct stream laser polished crap
b) low flying supersonic crap
c) UFC

This is a good point, in retrospect it's always easier to remember the good stuff.
However, most of the good stuff of the seventies never charted, at least not outside the r'n'b charts. But, a lot of the stuff that never charted back then is on top of the charts today because of sampling.. It all comes together in the end

I find it humorous when people shake thier heads at bands like BSB and Ashley Simpson...you have to put it all into perspective...

They arent' musicians.....end of story. These are entertainment icons. Modern day Milli's and Leif Garrets
So why the shock and chagrin that they sound put together'...?
Autotune...? OF course. Sugar coated pointless pop overproduction? Damn right!!

How can this make anyone 'angry' or upset...unless of course you consider them to be representatives of your personal music culture or industry....ambassadors for the sound of modern radio? I don't. I don't even bother listening or watching. They have lucrative 'entertainment' carreers built on Image and Marketing. Good for them.

They aren't a threat to real music nor are they purpetuating the decline of our society...They are and have always been around...always. None of this is new. Most of the music world is unknown and it is most of the world making real music with real musicians.

Check out a place like 'Soundclick' or CDBaby. How many 'Ashley Simpson' type bands will you find? Yep...just about none. How about rock? Pop? Jazz? Metal?Folk? R&B? Yep....countless. That is reality.

BTW Amplove...
Michaels face may be fake...But eh' Thriller...and Off the Wall aint. Those are both bonafide benchmarks in music history by real talent. Randy Jacksons playing still gives me chills...Damn that mofo got's it going on.

Thanks for the boobs!! That was nice!

P&B,

still, tho, if all the ashlee simpsons of the world could not use the music industry as part of their marketing plan then that might make some more room for actual musicians. and if they did not have so many turd polishing devices then maybe it would all sound so obviously bad, even to the general public, that they could not sell records. at least not on the grand scale that they do now.

just a thought.

Oh of course. It wasn't his musical legacy that I was using as an example. That would've been obviously rediculous of me. It was his face in relation to Christy Canyon's entire person that I was getting at. I'm well aware of his place in history's musical timeline. Shoot, Thriller and Off the Wall are indeed fantastic examples of R&B gold but we should go back to when he was a child singing the way he did. Incredible. AND...he wrote some of his own music. But let's not get into MJ. That's a tried horse of a topic.
jason

Actually, it's...na na...na na na...na na na...na na na.

I wanted to chime in to this conversation with something profound, but this is the best I could do.