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Mixing with Digi 001?
Old 24th June 2005
  #1
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BJohnston's Avatar
 

Mixing with Digi 001?

I've done my first set of mixes with my Digi 001. I've also got an Alesis AI3 for 16 total tracks at mix down. And an Amek BCII console to mix with. Anyone else have trouble with getting things in the pocket using the 001? It's not that the mixes are off. They sound really pretty decent. Just seems like I've really got to tickle it to do what I want. I think that there are those intangeables that you just can't get without good converters. I know that the converters are pretty much sh*t in the 001 and the AI3, but is it just me?
Old 25th June 2005
  #2
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You are certainly not working with the sexy stuff, but don't be deterred...
I have done several albums ITB 001 using ONLY the onboard mic/line pres and a few waves plugs. A little extra work involved but got it sounding to everyone's satisfaction, client and public!
Old 25th June 2005
  #3
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I sold off my studio years ago and downsized to an 001.

It is much more difficult to mix with this box than it was with ADATs and a Tascam M3700.

I have much better outboard than I had then but, it doesn't make up for it.

I will say it can be done but, it is like going to the shooting range with a blindfold on. If you keep shooting, you will hit the target.


Don't give up, Do get a better outboard converter, and you will win.


What specifically are the issues you have?
Mine are:
1. The mixes sound flat. no depth. I can't seem to push things back with eq,delay, or verb. It just sits up from with what ever I add.
2. keeping track count down. The more tracks the worst it sounds.
3. Using the right plug in for the job. I can't seem to learn all these diff eq's and comp's. I have recently removed most to limit my choices. I am hoping this allows me to get more profecient with the ones I left. And there are some real bad ones out there. Until you hear the ones that are "good" to you, you won't notice the bad ones.


Hey, don't listen to me. If I was a bad ass I wouldn't have a day job.



D
Old 25th June 2005
  #4
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Thanks for the reply guys. I guess my biggest problem is the overall body (Low, Low Mids, and Highs) and stereo splay of everything. It seems like things get jumbled up too easily. I'm just knit picking here. Like I said it's not that it's horrible. The main thing is that the client is in love with it.

B
Old 25th June 2005
  #5
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M.S.P.'s Avatar
What are you monitoring on? That might be part of the problem...
Old 25th June 2005
  #6
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hate to say it but put simply the converters in the 001 are almost unuseable. even w/ a great source it is tough to get any real tone out of these things....and then if you are tracking through it AND then running it back out to use outboard and back into the A/D? ug. a cassette 4 track sounds more satisfying.

and i am not a converter snob (prism or NOTHING!!) i just used this thing for a couple years and it is the shaft, sonically speaking. good learning tool tho.
Old 25th June 2005
  #7
krs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eligit
hate to say it but put simply the converters in the 001 are almost unuseable. even w/ a great source it is tough to get any real tone out of these things....and then if you are tracking through it AND then running it back out to use outboard and back into the A/D? ug. a cassette 4 track sounds more satisfying.

and i am not a converter snob (prism or NOTHING!!) i just used this thing for a couple years and it is the shaft, sonically speaking. good learning tool tho.
I'm not a golden ears by any strectchg, but I really agree with that, also on the AD side.
Old 25th June 2005
  #8
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I think you would be smarter to mix entirely ITB than using external summing withan 001. Unless you've got gtreat converters. Not ADAT.
Get soem UAD-1 cards and the URS EQ's as well.
It will make a pretty big diefference.

What kind of computer are you using?
Old 25th June 2005
  #9
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Is there a way to use, say a Rosetta or something with kickin A/D's with the 001? I've seen posts on this before, but there have been vague answers to them. I need 16 tracks in and out. By the way I'm monitoring off of my Amek BCII console stereo buss. My room is treated quite well with Bass Traps that I built and I've got Dynaudio B6A's monitors.

B
Old 25th June 2005
  #10
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BJohnston
Is there a way to use, say a Rosetta or something with kickin A/D's with the 001? I've seen posts on this before, but there have been vague answers to them. I need 16 tracks in and out.
Don't even listen to those pussies whining about the convertors. Every hack who doesn't know how to mix immediately blames the convertors, because it's the part of the kit they know the least about.

Try printing your effects in AS instead of leaving them open as RTAS inserts. That's one good way to get cleaner sounding mixes ITB with 001.
Old 25th June 2005
  #11
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant
Don't even listen to those pussies whining about the convertors. Every hack who doesn't know how to mix immediately blames the convertors, because it's the part of the kit they know the least about.
.

Oh boy. Our resident "expert" here to pass on his wisdom.
Old 25th June 2005
  #12
krs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant
Don't even listen to those pussies whining about the convertors. Every hack who doesn't know how to mix immediately blames the convertors, because it's the part of the kit they know the least about.

Try printing your effects in AS instead of leaving them open as RTAS inserts. That's one good way to get cleaner sounding mixes ITB with 001.
PSHAW.

dfegad
Old 26th June 2005
  #13
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman
Oh boy. Our resident "expert" here to pass on his wisdom.
Henchie,

Since we can infer from that statement that you are the "real" expert in these matters, let's ask you this question:

If an audio engineer cannot attain a "pro" sounding mix ITB on a 001, is that not due to operator error?

Thanks in advance for your response.
Old 26th June 2005
  #14
Gear Nut
 

no, not operator error...

if "pro" means wide, deep stereo image.

if "pro" means sounds as good as anything else after 10db of sqaushing with L2 and conversion to mp3... yeah sure you can be "pro" ITB with an 001.

but what do I know, I'm no expert at ITB, that's why I bought a Neve.

back to work mixing- or turd polishing, as is the case tonight.

Mark Burris
Old 26th June 2005
  #15
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

If an audio engineer cannot attain a "pro" sounding mix ITB on a 001, is that not due to operator error?
.
Had you taken the time to actually read the repsonses to this post, then you would have known that the issue of mixing ITB using an 001 wasn't even raised.
the question was using external summing through an ADAT AI3 and the 001 converters into an analogue console.


Hence the recommendattion of actually mixing ITB wioth the 001, and getting some UAD-1 cards as well as the URS eq Plug-ins.
Old 26th June 2005
  #16
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman
Had you taken the time to actually read the repsonses to this post, then you would have known that the issue of mixing ITB using an 001 wasn't even raised.
the question was using external summing through an ADAT AI3 and the 001 converters into an analogue console.


Hence the recommendattion of actually mixing ITB wioth the 001, and getting some UAD-1 cards as well as the URS eq Plug-ins.
Henchie,

You didn't answer my question.

If an audio engineer cannot attain a "pro" sounding mix ITB on a 001, is that not due to operator error?

Once again, thanks in advance for your response.
Old 26th June 2005
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant
Henchie,

You didn't answer my question.
If an audio engineer cannot attain a "pro" sounding mix ITB on a 001, is that not due to operator error?
Once again, thanks in advance for your response.
Start your own thread, and I'll answer it there.
That wasn't the question here.
Being able to do a pro sounding mix ITB on an 001 was not being called into question here.
Old 26th June 2005
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman
Start your own thread, and I'll answer it there.
That wasn't the question here.
Being able to do a pro sounding mix ITB on an 001 was not being called into question here.
ditto. if the 001 converters are bypassed and/or mix is 100% ITB then....fine? i'm not a pro at all, just know it's good to not use the A/D OR D/A on a 001.
Old 27th June 2005
  #19
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman
Being able to do a pro sounding mix ITB on an 001 was not being called into question here.
I'll take your word for that.
Old 27th June 2005
  #20
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by eligit
i'm not a pro at all, just know it's good to not use the A/D OR D/A on a 001.
And just who exactly told you that?

Someone who wants you to buy pricey external convertors, perhaps? OH! And they might even be able to sell them to you themselves??

Let's try this again:

If the convertors on the 001 prevent you from producing pro-level audio, then the convertors are not the problem. YOU are the problem.
Old 27th June 2005
  #21
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BJohnston's Avatar
 

Doesn't seem like Curve Dom. understands anything about the intial discussion that was posted. Seems like some people on this board like to jump into topics get the flame thrower out and proceed to bully there way around here. Why don't you read before you start shoving? Understand this, after having worked in the analogue world, and having worked on systems with much better converters, their is something missing overall stereo imaging and end product. Seems like this is a pretty widely excepted statement. Maybe some guys, like yourself, are happy with the results that you get. Kudos to you. If you honestly can't hear the difference between good and bad converters I feel sorry for your clients. If you have any. Do you charge extra for Panning or is that thrown in? Sorry I new of a guy once who claimed that he had to charge extra for that sort of thing. Just wondering if that was you. Maybe respecting other peoples experience and the want to want the best is too much to understand. Put down the flame thrower.
If anyone has anything elso to say on the originally posted subject please do so.

B
Old 27th June 2005
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant
And just who exactly told you that?

Someone who wants you to buy pricey external convertors, perhaps? OH! And they might even be able to sell them to you themselves??

Let's try this again:

If the convertors on the 001 prevent you from producing pro-level audio, then the convertors are not the problem. YOU are the problem.
nobody had to tell me that.

i just owned and used an 001 for 4 years. and then got some other converters (rme adi-8 ds, hardly the fanciest thing out there). one sounded like a weak signal from an am radio. one did not. this applied to a solo guitar or a 16 track mix w/ all other elements in the signal chain the same. end of story.

this would indicate that there are serious problems w/ the audio quality of the A/D and D/A of the 001.
Old 27th June 2005
  #23
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Switchcraft's Avatar
 

Some really good records have been produced exclusively on the 001. Why would you want to go out of the 001 to a amek... Hit the amek on the way in not out....
Old 27th June 2005
  #24
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steins's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BJohnston
I've done my first set of mixes with my Digi 001. I've also got an Alesis AI3 for 16 total tracks at mix down. And an Amek BCII console to mix with. Anyone else have trouble with getting things in the pocket using the 001? It's not that the mixes are off. They sound really pretty decent. Just seems like I've really got to tickle it to do what I want. I think that there are those intangeables that you just can't get without good converters. I know that the converters are pretty much sh*t in the 001 and the AI3, but is it just me?
FWIW.....A few years ago, I did a complete record using a 001 and a Apogee Rosetta. It actually came out pretty good. It´s a little flat sounding, but I blame that on myself and my lack of knowledge on how to mix in ProTools at that time.

When I upgraded to a HD system later on, I loaded some of the sessions I did on the 001......to my suprise, the sonic difference was minimal. I thank the Rosetta for that; the 001 converters are usable, but not that great.

Stein Tore
Old 27th June 2005
  #25
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JohnnyTooLoud's Avatar
 

When I was mixing ITB on the 001 I always had a problem with the low-mids of the guitars. Something in that range always sounded wrong to me and I would always try to EQ that range to make it less harsh.

Than I got a DAC1 and the biggest difference I heard between the stock converters to the DAC1 is that this low-mid problem area went away and mixing things got easier (less chasing bad tones to mixing levels). The harshness was coming from the converters.

So it may be the converters that are bugging you.

--Giovanni
Old 27th June 2005
  #26
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toolskid's Avatar
 

I think paultools has made a valuable point here. If its all you've got make it work... And it can work.


Referencing when using lower-end gear, or working in ****ty spaces becomes all the more important for me anyway.
Old 28th June 2005
  #27
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Here's an album I did using a Digi 001 with NO external converters, mostly through a Vintech Dual 72 pre. I might be hard to tell with the internet sound quality, but see what you guys think.
Old 28th June 2005
  #28
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Oops, here's the link:

http://hubcapanniemusic.com/listen.htm

"Our First Basement Winter" is the album title.
Old 28th June 2005
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeDrive
Oops, here's the link:

http://hubcapanniemusic.com/listen.htm

"Our First Basement Winter" is the album title.
nice! still has that muddy/fuzzy 001 sound i remember (esp on drums and well....lots of other stuff) but has nicer bass and all over fullness than i was able to sqeeze out of it.

cheers
Old 28th June 2005
  #30
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Yep. I have heard mixes from friends made on 001s that were pretty good considered the tool. But I´m so glad not having to use that box anymore. It wasn´t just the D/A as showed later through a DAC1, but its grainy A/Ds and a software that just doesn´t give you dimension and that clouds the stuff more with every additional track. And it will always veil no matter how you try.

A good man can certainly make something out of it, by going in cautiously into the convertors, staying ITB, working with delay and phase techniques and being sparce on processing and all, but he´d be doing much better with modern tools without question.

Ruphus
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