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Mixing with Digi 001?
Old 28th June 2005
  #31
Gear Nut
 

I did a bunch of albums and singles using a digi001 and an AI3
I mixed with an alesis X2 desk, with some outboard like BSS, DBX, Avalon etc
since I have PT HD I mix mostly in the box

when I listen to some of my old mixes I allways think: was not bad this cheap setup...

I prefered the 001 converters and used the AI3 for signals that would be masked more or less anyway.

I rerecorded the stereo signal with a DBX DDP into the session and then bounced to disc.
Old 29th June 2005
  #32
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
It's the job of any engineer to make sure the tools he's using are working for THE MUSIC.

I have no doubt that the convertors on the 001 will not scratch your @ss for you. But I never expected them to do that for me.

Maybe I'm just spoiled by all this Philadelphia talent which is so long and strong that you don't notice little details such as convertor quality. You could record these folks with tin cans and waxed string, and still feel the vibe from miles away.

Maybe that's why I often don't fit in here on Gearslutz: You guys are listening to the equipment, but I'm listening to the music.
Old 29th June 2005
  #33
What are you using now Rufus?

Best wishes

Jules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruphus
Yep. I have heard mixes from friends made on 001s that were pretty good considered the tool. But I´m so glad not having to use that box anymore. It wasn´t just the D/A as showed later through a DAC1, but its grainy A/Ds and a software that just doesn´t give you dimension and that clouds the stuff more with every additional track. And it will always veil no matter how you try.

A good man can certainly make something out of it, by going in cautiously into the convertors, staying ITB, working with delay and phase techniques and being sparce on processing and all, but he´d be doing much better with modern tools without question.

Ruphus
Old 29th June 2005
  #34
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toolskid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant
Maybe that's why I often don't fit in here on Gearslutz: You guys are listening to the equipment, but I'm listening to the music.
ahhh, the monumental arrogance!!!! please don't ever leave us curve....
Old 29th June 2005
  #35
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~ufo~'s Avatar
Well,

at the moment I track everything through a Nuendo 8I/O (RME) or in combination w/ the 001 when I need more than 8 tracks simultaneously.

I haven't really ABed the two, but I lean towards the RME convertors out of a gut feeling. Small projects I mix ITB w/ ok results, fighting headroom the headroom is what ticks me off mostly about ITB.

For larger projects I sync two digi001 rigs to get up to 36 outs to my soundtracs IL3632 console.
channel 1-8 digi001
channel 9-16 RME
channel 17-24 digi001
channel 25-32 swissonic DA24
channel 33-36 any device w/ spdif in and analogue out like a comp or fx box.

although time consuming and painstaking, I do prefer using the console at mixdown.
I get twice the amount of processing for plugins and need less of them since I EQ virtually everything on the console. I also add some outboard comps and fx boxes so Bob's my uncle.

Of course I'd like a single DAW (PTHD maybe when I get the money) w/ more channels (24 ins 48 outs) and better convertors.
But this setup is yielding quite satisfactory results at the moment.
I'd have to really get some hands on in a HD loaded stu to start missing 2 what the LE lacks. Sure it doesn't sound stellar, but I get good recordings from my rig.
I do believe I get the most out of the LE w/ my sync setup, even though I'm using 16 channels of 001 convertors at mixdowns...

Regards
Old 29th June 2005
  #36
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
What are you using now Rufus?

Best wishes

Jules

Hi Jules :O),

About everything in the chain has changed meanwhile.

Software is Samplitude. I have my crtics with it, but the sonics, audio preservation through processing and the editing flow is leaps over PT.
As SC a Lynx Two which is feeding a Lavry Blue.

For the major part apart of final checks the Lynx feeds the monitor controller ( SPL ) while the Lavry does the post feedings and the recording.

Got better mics ( am eying on the coming SPA next, hope user feedback might confirm the expectations soon ) and new speakers ( Adam P33, which we listened two at AES Berlin, you might remember ).

Also got some outboard now like Manley Slam!, Demeter HXM-1, Mindprint AN/DIpro ( don´t laugh, its good on acoustic guitar ), BMAX-T for bass ( not used yet, the Slam! fetched that job so far ), 2x Siemens 295 b EQs and recently two TC 2240 EQs of which I proudly exchanged the opamps ( a real battle around corners ). Also grabbed the SPL de-esser, a Radical X-amp ( not tried yet, but can´t wait to ) and the latest has been a Roland R-880 reverb ( very sensitive on sharp transcients, but really sweet especially for leads ).

The band I recorded lately was quite pleased and they say people buy the CD, some even ordering from other cities.

Am learning every day and I really, really love doing so, but no question, good gear helps a lot after the ( developing ) skills.

Best!

Ruphus
Old 29th June 2005
  #37
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Switchcraft's Avatar
 

Curve, whre are you located in philly? Im in Chinatown myself.
Old 29th June 2005
  #38
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88fingerz's Avatar
 

Yes! I'm familiar!

The annoying floor of hiss....pure vintage Digi 001!

Cloudy transients................unmistakable Digi 001!

Poor Mix..................................Hubcap Annie! (vox are not sitting right IMO....maybe raise the level a notch).

Anyone defending the 001 conversion quality? RED FLAG! RED FLAG! RED FLAG!


Fingerz
Old 29th June 2005
  #39
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
For larger projects I sync two digi001 rigs to get up to 36 outs to my soundtracs IL3632 console.

See, this is why Digi needs to allow multiple LE interfaces on one computer. it would be real nice to have this and 48tracks in version 7.0. Compter speed now-a-days can handle it.
Old 29th June 2005
  #40
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
See, this is why Digi needs to allow multiple LE interfaces on one computer. it would be real nice to have this and 48tracks in version 7.0. Compter speed now-a-days can handle it.
Of course, if you were runnign PT's 6.9 on a PC you could get 48 tracks with your LE set-up. heh
Old 29th June 2005
  #41
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchcraft
Curve, whre are you located in philly? Im in Chinatown myself.
Switch,

I'm down the street from you, at 11th & Pine.

Call me if you wanna get a beer and talk shop, my #'s on my website.
Old 29th June 2005
  #42
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~ufo~'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
See, this is why Digi needs to allow multiple LE interfaces on one computer. it would be real nice to have this and 48tracks in version 7.0. Compter speed now-a-days can handle it.
Well of course it can.
The problem here is that digidesign like to artificially cripple their LE hardware so that there remains a great big gap between the LE and HD systems.

They think I should just buy a HD system if I want to call myself a professional studio. I say: can I pay in 1000 monthly instalments of less than €250 ? ? ?

you see, this is a problem to me.
Old 29th June 2005
  #43
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T_R_S's Avatar
IMVHO a 001 was never designed to give professional results. It's a great song writing and demo tool.
On the other hand you can rob a bank with a water pistol ... you just won't get the same results.
You have to use the correct tool for the right job.
Old 29th June 2005
  #44
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toolskid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S
IMVHO a 001 was never designed to give professional results. It's a great song writing and demo tool.
On the other hand you can rob a bank with a water pistol ... you just won't get the same results.
You have to use the correct tool for the right job.
you can get amazing (professional???) results from a 001, you just have to work a little harder than you may expect. And have an open mind. In my experience you need the right jobs more than the right tools...
Old 30th June 2005
  #45
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nukmusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S
IMVHO a 001 was never designed to give professional results. It's a great song writing and demo tool.
On the other hand you can rob a bank with a water pistol ... you just won't get the same results.
You have to use the correct tool for the right job.


Man, what world are you living in? I guess you would think the Telefunken RFT M16 mic is "PROFESSIONAL" and the "APEX 460" is for demos??? thumbsup
Old 30th June 2005
  #46
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S
IMVHO a 001 was never designed to give professional results.
I'm sure it will surprise you and the rest of the peanut gallery to learn that the convertors in the 001 are actually of a better quality than the 888/24 convertors, which (hopefully) as you know produced a lot of "pro" recordings, not to mention "hit" recordings and certainly many amazing sounding recordings (the Ocean's Eleven soundtrack being my favorite example).

Once again: Operator error is to blame if you can't produce a pro recording with the 001.
Old 30th June 2005
  #47
krs
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krs's Avatar
 

Once again, Curve doesn't understand the difference between mixing ITB and analog summing.

dfegad
Old 30th June 2005
  #48
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by krs
Once again, Curve doesn't understand the difference between mixing ITB and analog summing.
The Oceans Eleven David Holmes-composed underscore was mixed in the box (to stems for the film post, but whatever), and the stock Digi 888/24 convertors were used. I know, because I spoke with the studio manager at Sunset Marquis, where that recording was produced.

Perhaps you can demonstrate you are not just anonymously trolling a pro audio board by explaining how the f&ck your post contributes to this discussion, but I'm not holding my breath.
Old 30th June 2005
  #49
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic
Man, what world are you living in? I guess you would think the Telefunken RFT M16 mic is "PROFESSIONAL" and the "APEX 460" is for demos??? thumbsup
It's all relative ...
Old 30th June 2005
  #50
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolskid
you can get amazing (professional???) results from a 001
As this thread indicates, there is no small industry of people who would love to be able to convince you and the rest of us otherwise, and they fall into three catagories whose motives happen to coincide:

1) "Pro studio" proprietors and employees who don't want all the kidz with 001's to think they no longer require their services,
2) Clock & Convertor manufacturers and dealers who don't want all the kidz with 001's to think that's all they need, and
3) Former 001 owners who never forced themselves to develop the skillset on the kit which would produce pro results, and are now defensive about that towards the 001 kidz who have mastered the little baby-blue beast.

It's ironic...In the late 1980's when I was "a kid in a band," the band I was in was invited to record three songs for free at Sigma Sound Studios, in Studio One (the same room Bowie recorded Young Americans), on a Neve automated console (don't ask me which series, I wasn't a gearslut at the time) to 32-track digital tape (which is widely derided now but was considered space-age at the time). Michael Tarsia's dad owned Sigma, he worked there as an engineer, saw us play at a club, liked us, and said, "Come record at my pop's place, it's on me."

Augsberger designed live room AND control room, big fooking Neve automated console, 32 track digital tape. State Of The F&cking Art, at that time, late 80's. $3M studio. And I listen to those recordings now against the Naeemah and Chase and Kurt Guitars and Delph Conspiracy stuff on my website that I did in my crib on the 001, and there is no comparison: The 001 wins, hands down.

But we have people here posting things like, "The 001 convertors are unusable!" ARGH!!!

There is so much amazing music out there, everywhere. Go to clubs, coffee houses, open mic nights at dive bars, and you will find the most compelling talent. OK, now you have to RECORD that stuff, and REALLY do it justice. Can you do that with a 001?

And if you cannot, what makes you think you can with a Neve and a Studer?

Something to think about.
Old 30th June 2005
  #51
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Switchcraft's Avatar
 

El- P's last record was done exclusively on a 001 without any other converters. maybe thats not pro enough, but it sounds good to me. either way better converters are better. I guess that is the insight that this thread is moving towards. insightful indeed.
Old 30th June 2005
  #52
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Switchcraft's Avatar
 

on different note curve, a total acquisition of all of the sigma sound recordings are now being given to the studio I manage. I was just checking out WAR, aretha, David bowie and a bunch of others on the original 2 inch. these will be used for academic research. it shhould be interesting.
Old 30th June 2005
  #53
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchcraft
El- P's last record was done exclusively on a 001 without any other converters. maybe thats not pro enough, but it sounds good to me. either way better converters are better. I guess that is the insight that this thread is moving towards. insightful indeed.
Switch,

It was Charles Dye who gave me the idea to treat the 001 like a "no excuses" pro-level tool, on this very forum actually.

C. Dye was guest-moderating a forum here on Gearslutz a few years ago, and as you know he's a major PT pioneer and guru.

I had just recently got my 001 rig set up at the time, and I posed the question to him:
"Is the 001 capable of producing pro-level results?"

C. Dye answered to the effect of:
"Yes, not only is it possible, but it's been done, because I've mixed projects recorded on the 001 for major label releases."

That's when I started approaching my production ITB on the 001 as a "no excuses" excercise: Treat the kit like it CAN be done, and work the kit until it IS done.

Like any ambitious enterprise, one benefits from the Neitzchian concept of bending space and time to one's will. IOW: I'ts doable, as long as you believe it's doable. Actually DOING it helps, of course.
Old 30th June 2005
  #54
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Switchcraft
on different note curve, a total acquisition of all of the sigma sound recordings are now being given to the studio I manage. I was just checking out WAR, aretha, David bowie and a bunch of others on the original 2 inch. these will be used for academic research. it shhould be interesting.
Hell, yeah. Can I sit in on that class? What's the tuition fee?
Old 30th June 2005
  #55
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Curve Dominant,

After your lecturing about the dims who just wouldn´t know how to work studio wise I became curious about your own abilities.

Beforehand I want to say one thing: I would be the first to jump in against merely sale pitched hype, and there does exists hype in that the gear gets more out of proportion in price the higher the shelf until it gets just absurd and ridiculous.

However, without seeking for any justification here, I went the god damn expensive path that leaves me without a single cent in my pocket so to say, for a good reason and that is my ears and my satisfaction in sound.

Anyway, so as you mentioned examples on the background that you are lecturing here about 001 and simply proficiency ( like to be clearly understood: Yours ) making it good enough, I went to your website and listened to the quoted examples.

First off, I like the artists. Must have been fun. Second your work on the examples is good. Better than I expected from you who has proven a couple of times to be too aggressive for his background of relevant knowledge.

I think it quite respectable what you got out of that box.
And as I imagine that when send to one of the mastering cracks out there could be ending up quite accomplished sounding.

However, the examples do contain what has been desribed on the 001 character in this thread. From the flatness in the third dimension aspect to the porousity of the sound ( grainyness ) and that typical veil one can´t escape with that rig.

It won´t matter much and sound good until you compare it to recordings made on better gear.
But as you must have heard stuff made with better equipment without realizing the difference the conclusion seems that you just can´t hear the difference.


This is not for a pissing match with you, the less since I consider myself humble in this field and still on the first steps. It has me far away from measuring my work "against" anybody´s.
Yet, my hearing isn´t that bad and your self-convinced explanations on the topic asked for a listening to your background.


Ruphus

PS: I didn´t read the text, but I like how your website is set up.
Old 30th June 2005
  #56
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doorknocker's Avatar
I tried hard to refrain from joining this tiring debate but anyway:

Ruphus,

I'm far from trying to 'defend' the 001 and its converters nor do I want to 'defend' Curve's work in any way.

It just strikes me as odd that you bring up mp3 examples in a CONVERTER discussion.

You're saying that you hear the bad artifacts of the 001 in these examples. This would mean that the mp3 conversion retains the basic 001 sound in spite of the added artifacts of mp3 itself.

Following your own logic, this would also mean that a great sounding song would still sound great even though these mp3 artifacts will mess with the audio.

I agree with that.

It's the same as a great movie still being great on video or on say as DVD when viewed on a laptop.
You'll get less dimension, less 'warmth', a much smaller 'window', maybe too sharp a resolution,etc but you can very well judge between a professionally done movie and a amateur one.

Following that logic, you can very easily hear what and how something has been recorded, even though a lesser converter might mess with the sound some.

The same goes for mixing and more often than not, the problem lies there, 001 or not.

What I wanna say is that a lot of the statements made in this thread are just nonsense. The converters have absolutely nothing to do with how a vocal is sitting in a mix. It has everything to do with the engineer's ability and even more so with the arrangement of the song.

The elusive '3rd dimension' doesn't magically appear once you drop the big bucks for the converters/summing box/etc. It has to be there in the room and in the arrangement and it's up to the mixer to alchemically translate it to a 2-dimensional stereo field.

I think that a lot of the flatness of '001 productions' are the results of flat sources. Samples, drums recorded in bad sounding room, mundane guitar sounds, lack of dynamics in the performances,etc

If it can't be done on a 001 then the logical conclusion would be that it will be a breeze to do on 'great' equipment. not true, unfortunately.

Again, I'm in no way defending the 001, sooner or later you GOTTA step up from it should you wish to really deliver the goods.

A final thought: I wonder what some of the folks here would have done in say the late 60ies. Imagine having to bounce tracks from the start and commit to them, with zero chance for later recalls. Generation loss, dealing with massive hiss, losing most of the dimension in the mastering process.
The conclusion would most likely be that it can't be done. But it has been done.

Don't blame your tools.

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch
Old 30th June 2005
  #57
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Oh yeah! That's another thing: I always love it when forum jockeys listen to the mp3's on my website and then post, "It has that '001' sound." And then go on about how good their ears are. LOL!

Especially since I deliberately smash those mp3's with Maxim in order to compete with all the other deliberately loud mp3's floating around on the net these days.

Aye aye aye, La Madonna.

And now I have some real work to do gentlemen, so adeu and goodbye.
Old 30th June 2005
  #58
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curve Dominant

And now I have some real work to do gentlemen, so adeu and goodbye.
What's on the menu today?
Old 30th June 2005
  #59
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Ruphus's Avatar
 

Hi Andi,

Good post.
First of all, I have always emphasized how I appreciate todays options in sound quality. Coming from some consumer crap cassette devices I know how to value even a box like a 001. And it is great to have something like it when you start out building your rig with a limited budget ( I am a budget guy, besides.) And my comment in no way was to discourage anybody from using it.

My aim was to answer the thought that one could do just as good stuff with that box and its software like with other tools which is simply not true.
( What mp3s is concerned, I remember a thread I opened on another board when 96k wasn´t used that much yet. And everybody jumping on me for supposedly final products on mp3 couldn´t transmit the difference. But fact is that that they can. At least when not in too low resolution I suppose, which I havn´t tried yet.)

Concerning room depth with better gear I think it to be true just as well. The day I listened back to a recording made with better boxes for the first time, I almost cried of joy and kept pushing the playback button again and again until dawn. One of the reasons besides of clearness, fullness and whatnot was exactly that: depth.

Better gear and convertors definitly can give you third dimension, eventhough refining it certainly needs additinal tweaks and methods as you mentioned already. ( Am at time trying to learn especially about that.)

BTW, I would be ready to defend Curve Dominat´s work, for to my ears he has done nice jobs there, but I oppose his statement according to which a 001 would suffice for everybody´s needs.

It doesn´t.

Ruphus

PS: Isn´t it inherent? Better convertors give you higher precision, precision makes room. ( I remember describing better convertors for the first time together with a good pre, and I said something like `you could hear the pictures hanging on the wall´or so. )
Old 30th June 2005
  #60
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman
What's on the menu today?
Tracks #9, 10, 11 & 12 on Naeemah's CD (look at the website Henchie, I haven't had much time for cooking lately, but thanks for asking).
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