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intern getting dicked around by studio
Old 24th June 2005
  #1
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intern getting dicked around by studio

Anyone ever been an intern at a studio and then after a couple of months working for free, realized that all the have been doing is scrubbing toilets, taking out trash, and ansewering phones? Well that seems to be the case here with me and I have heard that interns have a tendency to get taken advantage of. It would'nt be so bad if there was an equal amount a learning going on but so far the most I've done is set up a few mics and coiled some cables. I chose to do an internship instead of going to school for financial reasons. I heard that it could be just as valuable as school if you get into the right studio with the right people and apply yourself. I have acouple of options. I can continue to bust the engineers balls to teach me something or I can bail and find anotherr studio that is more proffesional with their interns. It would be nice to hear from some fellow gear slutz about this topic and suggestions are very welcome. Thanx!
Old 24th June 2005
  #2
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I've interned at many studios in NY and Boston. Some are better than others obviously. You really should make it clear that you are not there to scrub toilets and mop floors; that is what a maid service is for, but keep in mind though that certain undesireable labor must be done in order for the studio to run smoothly and so the client wants to come back. I'd express my concerns to the engineer or studio owner, whomever would be appropriate in your case, say I'd like to sit in on a tracking or mixing session whenever possible. Try to use offline time to get in the studios and check things out for yourself as well. It took many months for them to allow me to stay in the control room when there was a client, but it was because they wanted to see how I acted and if I had the proper studio etiquette.

I've never heard of a studio really "taking advantage" of their interns; although some may have a skewed sort of view on what an interns actual purpose is. Tell them your situation, request some more hands on work, and if a month goes by and they still expect you to be their go-to Febreeze guy, then switch studios.

Dante
Old 24th June 2005
  #3
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Wellcome tu the club dude heh ...

I guess that's the way every intern is treated when he/she gets for the first time in a studio, everybody pays its dues...I myself scrubbed lots of toilets, made lots of my best coffe, and all of the things I hated the most before I was allowed to sit in a session and actually assist...that took several months...the fact is that they are testing you as a person first and as an up and coming engineer second, deciding if your personal attitude is right or not, and if you do want to be in the studio no matter what the task. If the process goes as it should you will be moved to more engineering duties soon and will be assigned more responsabilities with time. That's how it went with me. I assisted for one year, and I found myself passing from emptying ashtrays to editing full lenght albums for the label and actually record vocals for some top notch singer...
Belive me, if you can keep at it the amount of knowledge you can get is enormous, really not comparable to what you would learn in school, and it's not technical related only, you learn about interpersonal skills and behaviours that are as important as knowing what knobs to twist.
By all means, if you're not moved onto something more serious in a couple of months then have a talk with the studio manager and clarify things...if you find it's not going to take you anywhere then it's maybe time to change boat...

Best of luck to you

L.G.
Old 24th June 2005
  #4
You have to ask yourself just one thing.

Do you want what is at the end of the tunnel?

Please tell us

1) What the guy you replaced is doing now? (or if he was fired, what the guy just above you is doing)

2) how often they get a new intern and move someone up?

3) how many control rooms are there at the facility?

4) have you ever done a ****ty manual work job before?

5) How many people working there now started the same way you are? (talk to them on breaks and ask friendly, leading questions like 'I guess you did this too when you started?' - Ask the Detective Columbo way, with a smile and and see what info you can get...

6) Does the facility have the history of 'growing' hit engineers / producers? Did some now famous people in the industry get their start there?

Some folks might foam at the mouth about how you should tell the boss to ^%*^&$£ off and quit. Dont listen to them for the moment. Hang in there, do you research.

Feb 1982 - On my first day my boss asked me to get a bucket of soapy water - I reported to him with it - he said "go wash my car" (a tweaked out Porsche with a racing engine in it) I nearly tipped the bucket over him! I DESPISED him for it..Age 22 and having done a LOT of ****ty jobs, I realised that I actuall WANTED what was at the end of this initial stage so - I kept up with the job (toilet cleaning. vacuum cleaning, sandwich runs) and stayed there for 6 years ending up as one of the in-house engineers and enough clients to split with and sustain me as a freelancer working in the UK / Europe. I got $50 per week.
Old 24th June 2005
  #5
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

i believe there's a way to communicate your desire to notch up your involvement and education that conveys excitement and gratitude rather than impatience and resentment.

flattery is good; no need to bull**** or schmooze, just look for the positive and accentuate it. express thanks for being given the opportunity in such a competitive field, and convey your intention to honor their investment in you.

then kick back for a couple of weeks and see. keep smiling... if nothing else, you deserve to feel good. if nothing happens, ratchet up the same approach, and finish it off with a non-demanding question: i'd love to sit in on a session and just watch what happens from behind the console, off to the side, out of the way, silently. is there anything coming up where that'd be do-able?

play it by ear. my experience is that gentle, patient persistence that is doggedly optimistic almost always wins the day. view these gatekeepers as your allies, not your enemies. look for small ways to enhance their lives and make them feel good; i know it seems like you're doing a lot of shi† already, but you gotta find ways to help *them* on a more personal level. go out of your way. that's the kind of impression that makes people want to help you in return.

generosity always comes back around. you'll get there. you're probably closer than you think. just be the coolest badass cat you can be and watch the world unfold for you.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 24th June 2005
  #6
Mindreader
 
BevvyB's Avatar
 

Jules, will you wash my car next Sunday?
Old 24th June 2005
  #7
fuuck
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Old 24th June 2005
  #8
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the1Hub's Avatar
 

absolutely stick with it. i found it to be far more educational then any school of engineering could ever be. there is alot to be brought in by the experince. for me it was how a studio is ran top to bottom. yeah you want to learn all of the great gear, mabey get a little face time, but alot of that you can do on your own. try to pick up on the little things, they can make a big difference in the long run. i never really appreciated my internship tell after a couple of years of actually working. when young interns and assitants started showing up in my sessions, it was pretty clear to me all of the habits and tricks i picked up on in my internship, things that i do now that make the diffrence in a session. another thing to remember is that its not the engineers job to teach you anything, your there to learn what you can by observing.

my best advice is show up with a smile on your face, a great attitude and be ready and willing to do anything they might ask of you. a great attitude will take you along way. a remember to have fun, hell your atleast inside the studio doing something, a know a lot of people that would love to be in you shoes.

iam finding that learning to be an engineer is really a life long experince. for me vaulenteing my time in order to learn has gone well past my internship, i try to do it as much as i can. ive had the great oppertunity to learn from fellow slut MJGREENAUDIO. just watching someone like him work is worth more then the time you had to give up. Thanks Mike.
Old 24th June 2005
  #9
Lives for gear
 

I have been through all of this cleaning / coffee making / getting shouted by angry wannabe producer process too and I must say I learned a lot for life and my own studio business.

I especially learned how NOT to do things, which is very important

The crucial thing for you is to find out, what is the right time to stay and when to leave...perhaps you should go on and see what happens...or look for a better place...there are no rules- the directions of your live lie in YOUR hands.

I personally found out, that I learned what had to be learned at the place, where I was assistant and every additional day there would have been a waste of time and energy.
Old 24th June 2005
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labs
what would be your evaluation of them?

Gustav
Once I had a fairly useless intern turn TOTALLY useless, he failed to report for work on day 3 of a session with the knowlege of the wereabouts of midi files we vitally needed. He hid behind his answering machine untill I left a message that if he didnt get back in touch I would create merry hell at his recording school.. This did the trick. He called me with some crapola story about 'his mother being taken to hospital' told me where he stored the midi files - then I had the administrator from the school inform me that this useless ****** had delivered a 'bad report' about me. ***ing NERVE of the guy.. .
Old 24th June 2005
  #11
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audioez's Avatar
 

I was an intern at a NYC tracking room; was hired after 2 months or so...Then found another room where I could jump into asst. engineering...This was about three years ago. To this day, the studio that gave me my start, has the same 5 staff engineers.

Now I'm no longer an employee of the studio but a client of both of them, don't burn bridges cause this business we call "music" is a lot smaller than you could even imagine.
Old 24th June 2005
  #12
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AlphaDingo's Avatar
 

Look at it this way: What is the best possible job I could do with every job given to me? As someone who hires people (outside of music) I look at it like this: If this person can't even clean a toilet right, how could they possibly run a session? If there idea of cleaning a toilet is getting it wet and yet not getting it clean, what does that say about their idea of quality? Why would I need them in my studio? Something to think about.
On the other hand you need to determine if they are actually abusing you. Do you have enough detatchment to make that determination? Posting here was a good first step.
Old 24th June 2005
  #13
Everybody here has scrubbed toilets. That’s part of it. If you went to school instead you would be scrubbing toilets when you get out. Starting at the bottom when learning any "trade" requires the scrubbing of toilets. Should you be looking at interning somewhere else? Of course you should. Not because of scrubbing toilets but you need to make sure you intern for someone who is doing what you want to do. One thing an intern can do to get noticed quickly is to do whatever it takes to make the CLIENTS happy. If a couple CLIENTS mention how much they enjoy having you around, the studio will not want you go. The studio business is highly completive and if you are key to making CLIENTS happy, you have an economic value. Any monkey can scrub toilet and set up a mic.
Old 24th June 2005
  #14
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Ribbonmicguy's Avatar
I've interned at a few places in LA.

One of the studio told me to clean the toilet, refrigerator, mop, vacuum floor and run for food 4 times within 6 hours. I did it willingly. However, it was a non-paid internship and they didn't pay for mileage or for my meal. I'd say that was a bad trade-off.

I only worked there for a day.

Obviously, I would be categorized by some as, couldn't make it in the industry.

I'd say toilet cleaning and studio engineering is two different things. The best internships I've seen is at Westlake. They have never asked (non-paid) interns to clean toilets (janitorial) or run for food due to insurance and legal stuff. However, their paid runners do that.

Their internship programs have a step-by step learning curve and u'd be tested and quizzed every so often. (For example, this week, u'll help setting up the microphones. U'll learn from Mr. Ray our second engineer...)

Whenever there's downtime in the studio, the second would be allowed to do their own stuff and allow the runner/intern to help them and second for the second

I've interned for three other places since then (school required and personal choice) and developed great relationship with the owner. Landed me a job and recommended for several other jobs.

At those places, I don't have to do toilet cleaning, though I did lots of running, warehouse cleaning, setting up sessions and client handling stuff. I learnt a lot about sound engineering, studio etiquette and thankful that I didn't keep the first job where I could have been the janitor/slave/intern for a long time.

For every job that I've completed, the reward was I can ask any relevant audio questions I want, hang out with the engineers/owners and assist in the session.

Cleaning bathroom/toilet isn't a big deal, but if its not balanced with nurturing your interns/runnners to learn about recording (which is why they intern at the first place) is not fair for the intern.

If i were to intern again, I'd ask the studio, how many interns usually step up to be second engineers in their studio, how long does it take them normally to jump from intern to second and what's the studio's commitment to train interns to become in-house engineers?


Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
Not just bathrooms, but the whole studio needs to look clean to give a professional look. It's part of the whole package. Neat and organized looks good to someone just walking in. Beer cans, left over garbage from the last band doesn't look good. So housekeeping is most definitely something that must be learned as well as tweaking knobs. So I'd say get the housekeeping done, and then you'll have time for the other stuff.
Btw, I owned my own studio right now and it is kept clean and professional. I have no interns and plan to have no assistant since I am fine working by myself and my studio is small.
Studio need to be kept clean, but I wouldn't take advantage of someone wanting to learn from me to do whatever I told them to.
I don't know what other industries treat their interns like audio industry?

I'm sure not in business/law/hospital internships.

Also, does it mean if a person cleans the toilet, he develops great attitude/etiquette and therefore make him a better engineer? Will he learn more if the time he took to clean and run be spent in watching a session and learning from the real engineers?

Just some thoughts (Anti Flame Suit -ACTIVE)
Old 24th June 2005
  #15
Tip for cletus (the creator of this thread)

If they stick you on the desk answering the phones ask for (or go get) some equipment manuals and read those inbetween calls.. Look "keen".. (dont be seen to leave these manuals out where a client could walk off with one though...)
Old 24th June 2005
  #16
You're lucky the studio even took you, seeing that you have no formal recording school education. I personally have been hounded for years by people looking to be an intern and I wouldn't take them because they either had no education, or if they did it was usually from Full Sail and with a $50K education I think their school should be placing them, or hiring them -- not me, it's not my responsibility to find them jobs. Not to mention, I expect these interns to have jaded attitudes and I don't want to deal with it. I just took my first intern EVER, he's a hard worker, but with baggage to match. Our studio and store don't have time to cater to him, he's a nice guy, but I've been doing my gig long before he came along. He needs to be supervised, and instructed pretty often, it makes it more of a task for me. I could do his jobs, eventually, in my spare time. It'll take me 5 hours to do what he does in 20. My intern gets 5 hours a week or more of my time, we talk while we're in the car, at the studio, eating lunch. We provide meals and mileage for him, too. I show him a few things here and there when time allows.

Often times having "free" labor isn't worth it to a studio. If the studio is large, they are more likely to accept you. If the studio is small, you have to make jobs for the interns to do and teach/train them on how you do things. There are lots of people out there who would gladly trade places with you (at least for a while, until they too felt jaded).

You could get out there and find some business and network for the studio. Go to clubs, music stores, etc. pass out cards and talk up your studio. I have a policy at my place that if you refer business you can intern on that project. You need to realize that if you do not make yourself valuable to your studio, you will be expendable. If you're helping the studio pull in $800-1000 a week in bookings, you can then expect more than the "nothing" you are getting now.



Cletus wrote
Quote:
It would'nt be so bad if there was an equal amount a learning going on
One hour of intern labor in exchange for 1 hour of private lessons from an engineer doesn't match up. If you want one on one attention, quit your intern gig, get a real job earn a little cash, and hire an engineer to teach you one on one in a recording studio. Just like piano lessons or guitar lessons, go a couple times a week. Many engineers would do private lessons. At least you won't be dropping over 15K-50k (i.e. recording school) for a little personal attention, and you'll at least be able to see if this is for you.
Old 24th June 2005
  #17
Interesting articcle on the AES website..

http://www.aes.org/education/pritts3.html

Old 24th June 2005
  #18
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Ribbonmicguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
"Also, does it mean if a person cleans the toilet, he develops great attitude/etiquette and therefore make him a better engineer?"



Yes. Working in a sloppy studio would make his other work habits sloppy too.

Running for food is a problem ?? Making coffee is a problem ??? Sound like some real life skills are in order, as people do need to eat during a long session sometimes. Would you tell Sir Paul McCartney to go hungry during a long session, if he were recording at your place ???? Or should the session be haulted so Sir Paul can go out and get a bite to eat ??

There's a lot of things that happen during a quality session, and the little things all add up. If an intern is just standing around annoying the artists with his dumb questions, he's slowing down progress and is counter productive. The whole point of being there is to help the artist complete the session, which sometimes include running out for needed items or food, not to cater to the intern.
Djwayne,

The studio still needs to be cleaned. Yes.
Running, making coffee is never a problem for me.
The client is king in my studio.

The interns are not there to slow down the session.

But the intern deserved to be rewarded with something in return for his service to the studio. During down time, when no one's around, educating the intern might do him justice for his service.

Interns are human too u know.. they intern at a studio with the intention to learn sound engineering, and not to learn on how to be a better human being.

back again..
Will he learn more if the time he took to clean and run be spent in watching a session and learning from the real engineers? instead of cleaning the toilet


Nathan:

Of course one hour of engineering is not equivalent to one hour of intern's service. However, reward those who serve you. Even if it means 5 minutes of educating him on how you use your outboard gear.

Jules:

Good idea. That's what the wesltake interns are doing msot of the time. Answering phone calls and reading manuals. :P
Old 24th June 2005
  #19
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

hey jules, my toilets AND cars are dirty... i also could use a pressure washing of my concrete patio, some dirt moved and some massive weedwacking.



bah, recording isnt about cleaning toilets. idiots who take those jobs.
Old 24th June 2005
  #20
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphajerk
bah, recording isnt about cleaning toilets.

this is true, but then again, working in a studio isn't just about recording. it's about learning to run a business, service client needs top to bottom, and manage staff.

most importantly, it's about creating and nurturing a network of colleagues, associates, and friends who will all be instrumental in your long term success. relationships are everything, nobody gets anywhere on their own.

the big studio biz is a different scene than the diy outfits, and there's a lot more to be gained there than just learning the craft of recording. this is all assuming, of course, that that's the path you want your career to take. it's not the only path, but it's a valid one.


gregoire
del ubik
Old 24th June 2005
  #21
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Ribbonmicguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne
But the intern is being educated on the total realities of the recording studio. The toilets need to be cleaned, the grass cut, carpet vacuumed, wiring, painting, selecting equipment, bringing in new clients....it's all important...and just as important as learing how to tweak the knobs. You have to remember, this is a pro recording studio, not a day care center for spoiled lazy brats.
Djwayne,

When interning, I'd want to learn about sound engineering, if i want to learn about housekeeping, i'd go to a housekeeping facility and learn it.

Learning about studio management and hospitality is great, but i'm sure the time the engineer took to clean toilets, cut grass, vacuum carpet, would be put to better use, education wise, to learn about 'sound engineering'.

Educating the intern on the total reality of a pro recording studio is honorable. Yet, please prioritize on the sound engineering aspect and not taking advantage of someone for his/her labor to clean your studio for almost nothing, in the name of educating the intern.
Old 24th June 2005
  #22
Gear Maniac
 
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We've all been there. I did non-audio grunt work for 6 months before getting into the 2nd engineer chair.

This is the nature of the business - everyone wants to be a part of it, but in reality, a small percentage of those interested actually have the aptitude, motivation and personality for it. Doing "slave labor" is one of the ways that prospects get weeded out.

I think it's reasonable for the studio to have you do what you are doing - as long as you have some access to the resources there. Do you get to access to their manuals? Do you get to play around in the studio if it's not busy after your shift? During my internship, I would work a 12 hour day doing crappy work, and then try to spend a few more hours practicing in the studio at night. This meant some really long days, but I had to get ahead of other interns competing for engineer spots, and show others that I was serious about it. This hands on experience and access to real studio equipment is how I really began to learn the trade.

Good luck!

-KD03
Old 24th June 2005
  #23
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Ribbonmicguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules
Interesting articcle on the AES website..

http://www.aes.org/education/pritts3.html

Cool article Jules!
Old 24th June 2005
  #24
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Ribbonmicguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by djwayne

It's not my job to educate the newbies who want a free ride.
Sad fact...
Old 24th June 2005
  #25
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GP_Hawk's Avatar
So far you have you set up a few mics and rolled some cable. Are you familiar with all the gear in the studio, where everything is, what mics are on hand and what to use them for? There is a lot you can learn on your own and in a lot of cases THIS is what the studio owner wants to see in an intern. Someone that can work on thier own with little supervision and hand holding, and has taken the time and has the ability to learn on thier own. A lot of people don't have that ability. Get to know the studio inside out, on your time. Show you really have the thirst/drive/ambition/your obcessed with this job. Don't wait to be told to do something. Be ready to respond when the moment arises. Really show you WANT to be a part of this. If you are cleaning toilets and waiting around for someone to show you something, you could be waiting a long time.

All the best and good luck!
Old 24th June 2005
  #26
Gear Addict
 
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I want everyone here to know that my the original post has absolutely nothing to do with willingness to work. The first few weeks of working at this studio I did everything that had not been done by any intern for years. Painting the whole studio, fixing holes in the walls, installing new cieling tiles, spackling caulking,washing scrubbing all of it. Then after I'm done there I go to my real job and work till 11 or 12 at night so I can keep a roof over mine and my girlfriends head in expensive marin county. I think it says alot about me as a person who would have the balls and the confidence to go to a studio and get a job interning instead of going to school. I have nothing to prove. I consider myself a beginner and stay humble because of this fact. I love music and love to make music. I'm also very passionate about how it is captured and want to be knowledgeable about these things as well. I expect nothing to be handed to me. It's just a matter of getting in return what I give. Yes I was very frustrated when I posted oringinally but am in the process of working it out with the engineers at work and I thank everyone who had the kind words of encouragement to hang in there. I know that one of these days I will be assisting on sessions it's only a matter of time. Thanx again!
PEACE
Old 24th June 2005
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Theres a studio around me that gets lots of requests for internships... They take a lot of them and have free work for a couple months till someone quits and then they replace them. They dont seem to have any intention of teaching anyone anything because they dont have to. They have a list of people ready to do it (cause they think they'll actually get a real internship). Its really messed up and everyone is trying to outdo the others so they get top notch work for free..

At some point they're going to get whats coming to them in that someone is purposely going to mess something up, once people figure out they've been doing this for years...

If it were me I'd try and figure out how many internships they've had and if anyone has actually moved up...

Think about it, its a great way to get free work.. it just really screws up peoples ideas for their futures.
Old 24th June 2005
  #28
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

dude, its not about not working or getting a free ride. if i take on an intern i got LOTS OF WORK for them to do, and none of it has to do with janitorial duties.

i want them to keep my **** organized, i want them to back up my stuff, label it... see how i organize my HD's and so forth... for tracking, i want my cables i need when i want them, the mics to be gotten... and so on. i will need them at times to place a mic in the live room while i communicate with them from the CR about its position and what im wanting to hear etc. so in a sense, they jump right to a "2nd", but i dont consider being a "2nd" a high step on any ladder. to me thats an intern/apprentice. hell, being a 1st isnt any great step either. its just recording audio. its not a rocket surgery profession.

these are all things that are BENEFICIAL to them learning. and none require toilet cleaning, okay, maybe backing up DATA is akin to cleaning a toilet but its still directly related to audio and not the bodily functions of the people.

of course, i never bought into any frat house hazing rituals so i dont expect who works for me to either. id rather hire a guy who told me to f'uck off if i asked them to clean a toilet than one who actually did it. now i would expect them to keep the session tidy making sure beer bottles or food wrappings dont pile up and keep things in order, and if something spilled, they should be on it cleaning it up... as for runnign for food/etc? i dont live in a metropolitian area and i stil have delivery for just about everything... i would expect other places to have the same. if its a run down the road for a pack of smokes or something, id give them gas money etc.



i think the opinion of hazing being okay just stems from the 'i had to do it' mentality, which doesnt make it right... it just continues the BS. its like some kid being racist becuase his father was... load of crap.
Old 24th June 2005
  #29
Quote:
Originally Posted by djui5
There is a difference between someone being pissy over having to answer phones the first time, and someone who's obviously willing to learn and work getting f***ed in the cornhole by some a$$hole who just want's some poor kid to do all his $hit work because he's a lazy f*** and has too much pride to clean the $hit himself.
Dammit this pisses me off. F*n people don't have any right to treat people like this. The slave trading is over.....
How can you get so pissed off with a situation you aren't fully up on?
Old 24th June 2005
  #30
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
The first few weeks of working at this studio I did everything that had not been done by any intern for years. Painting the whole studio, fixing holes in the walls, installing new cieling tiles, spackling caulking,washing scrubbing all of it
They should be giving you part ownership at this point!

In your situation, it sounds like you should stick it out. I wouldn't want you or your girl to be homeless.

But if you were someone who didn't need to be there or had another opportunity, I would ask myself why the studio owners didn't take care of all that crap themselves. Sounds like a run down facility owned by lazy people who have become complacent. Marin is nice though.

The Hollywood attitude of pissing on interns is quite upsetting, but what do you expect from people who are living that lifestyle? I don't really dig the whole LA "I'm better than you" vibe. In fact, I love music but have no taste for it as a business. That's probably why I have a half-ass home studio at the moment, though I am getting more serious about it lately.

You'd also be surprised at how many engineer/producers can't do much more than move a fader up and down anymore after years of having other people do everything for them!
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