way back when .. thats pretty much how i got on my first album session after only being @ the recording studio a very short time over the guy who been there more then a year ... he was the night runner and when things where slow he would go in the lounge and watch TV ... I was the day runner and when i was done with work i would stay(on my own time) read manuals ... hang out and learn from the other guys working the rooms if clients werent around.

I was very lucky that an engineer took me under his wing and passed his wisdom my way.

every session, whether live or studio, I was in there doing something pertaining to music. no cleaning toilets or doing bitch work. That wasnt his style. He even gave me a couple of his clients to get my feet wet, and went on a couple of gigs with me to help ME out(and look over my shoulder). As much as I respect those who have been in business since the early days, I respect myself much more, and if it had gotten to the point where I was not doing much audio-related work, I wouldve walked out. paying dues is one thing, but being a slave and not learning dick is another matter. they can keep that.

I get more out of working a "real" job(In my case, govt. work) and picking the old guys brains on my downtime...not relying on assisting them for income...learning when I can, and when they have the time to work with me/give private lessons/master classes... no financial pressure, no slave labor and no bull****. there are plenty of migrant workers to do crap jobs..and lthey are a lot cheaper than assistants, taboot. there is so much knowledge out there, young guys just have to seek it out.

I think its not about being the slave, (although there are always places that will abues the system). The jobs like cleaning the toilets might be a little extreme, however clearing up after sessions, making the tea, gophering used to be the traditional route in.

This system had many advantages, eg. It taught interns studio ettiquette, how to work hard, dealing with people, and like anything else it's amazing what can be learnt by just shutting up and watching someone who know's what they are doing. Even if the engineer isn't very good, you can equally learn what doesn't work, sitting someone in front of a console and showing them what every knob and switch does turn's them into an operator not an audio engineer, as I said in another post knowing how to operate all the gear isn't what the job is about to be honest it's more about when and how to apply that knowledge. It always reminds me of the Karate kid, wax on, wax off,wax on........

Regards to all


Roland

it'll pay off at some point.

same here... after being an intern in big studios, what i learned is what i would not do in the business of running a studio. still 20 years ago it seemed like a good idea... my first hands-on experience with a big ssl mixer..

"The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."

I suggest that every person who desires to be an audio engineer as a pure career field to read the book "Who Moved My Cheese". You can read the whole thing in 1/2 hour in Barnes & Noble so your wallet won't take a hit if you don't have a gig!

Or check it out at the Beverly Hills library, like I did...hey, that reminds me, I've gotta return my Pablo Casals plays the Bach Cello Suites CD's #1 and 2 soon and my "Sound Effects: Sounds of War, Combat and Space" CD...you can only have 6 CD's out at one time...

Great (and very short) book, even if the allegories wear a little thin after a while.

If you wanna feel ready to take on the world, put the Tony Robbins stuff on loop. Then you're ready for anything.

LOL I've actually seen Tony Robbins live.... twice
Somewhat frightening, but uplifting in a way.

hey jules remember when you offered me an internship for lunch and bus fares?, hey its was a pretty sweet deal taking into account the guy i would have learned from, but its a very tough reality to live ina foreign country and pay rent with a bus fares and lunch deal, so, to talk about the actual issue,

dood, if you are reaaaallly passionate about engineering producing, youlll be glad your washed toilets for alon time as we all did. I did it in miami and finally got to engineer at the stuio where i was, but once agian the whole foireign thing bit me in the ass. god its tough to be colombian.

I don't actually sorry. I have run a 3 day trial @ $20 + food, graduating to an extended
$40 per day + food 1 month trial after that - for about the last 6 years.. You could call that 'buss fares' only I suppose. After the month trial ended a monthly wage was figured out with bonuses for overtime & high paying sessions. but if you were applying to work with me from Colombia I would have tried to discourage you to travel all the way over for a no guarantee trial period for a no guarantee job position. But I am very gladened to hear of your progress!

But I was 100% guilty of only hiring college age people that don't have rent to pay because they still live at home with their parents. This would agitate a lot of folks on web forums, especially folks in the US who would say it was illegal to advertise for and hire in just one narrow age range. And guess what? It wasn't....It has only just this month been made illegal here in the UK http://www.aldershot.co.uk/news/2004..._the_workplace so I wont be doing that again.

guess i must have been so nervous i didnt get all the info..... btw it wasnt an asshole comment, just thought i'd throw in my 2 cents
cisko

Guys this business is only for people who have a burning passion for it. All the others will usually not last......There are many sick people in this business including the artists.....usually that makes them entertaining, not the best to work for...........but great to listen to there CD......For success ,...a famous multimillionare said love what you do and be very, very patient

I'm impressed to see this thread is still going. I was the original, frustrated intern who started this thread. I stuck around for six more months at that particular studio after posting this and learned alot. Not long after the whole situation, a new intern came around to do the same stuff I had to do in order to actually learn something. I still am in contact with the chief engineer and actually have a better relationship with him now that I'm doing my own thing. I've got a decent sized space that I record other bands in as well as my own. I learned alot working in a commercial studio and made some great contacts as well. In the end I decided against working for someone else in order to pursue my own dreams and musical endeavors. I think most of all I missed being the musician on the other side of the glass and now that I do both I find I am much more fulfilled. Thanks for all the support while I was figuring all this out everyone!
PEACE

****, i would PAY THEM to let me clean toilets, if it meant an eventual chance to see the engineer at work and actually learn something.

My toilet needs cleaning.

I also need the money...

I'm a late-comer to the thread (and my first post to GearSlutz as well), but I just wanted to say that this thread really helped put things in perspective for me and I appreciated it...

I was offered an "internship/apprentice" position at a local studio by the owner after having run sound for him at a weekly club event he was promoting. I had previously mentioned an interest in applying for a degree in engineering with a school, and he suggested that I work with him under his lead engineer and learn through apprenticeship instead. He also offered to compensate me by purchasing some gear I'd been chatting with him about and with studio time in return for my work.

After years of self-education, the occaisional live sound gig, and setting up home studios for myself and friends, I felt like a door was opening up into working in a professional studio. I was excited about learning more about my craft--but also felt like it was an opportunity to be involved with a label, and with marketing/promoting both the studio and the label.

What ended up happening was roughly 9 months of renovating the studio (it was not yet open for business or wired for sound when I signed on), organizing and disposing of a ton of random stuff in dormant rooms, assisting the lead engineer with soldering wires, and increasing hostility over asking about any of the compensation I was supposed to recieve. Oh yes, and of course, being a maid service for musicians who also happened to be slobs.

Aside from loading gear in and out for band rehearsals and being a roadie at the owner's gigs, and occasionally jamming by myself late at night, I never worked with any of the gear and never recorded a single note on their equipment.

At the very tail-end of my internship, I was able to sit in on the first session at the studio (a nightmare of endless technical difficulties), and I was able to assist with a multi-rig, multi-engineer live recording/direct to CD project at a local festival (a logistical nightmare).
That last project ended up being the breaking point between the owner and myself, although I'm still not clear of precisely why five months later, aside from working under stressful conditions.
At the same time, the lead engineer flat-out told me that he had no interest in teaching me anything I didn't already know, that I should apply to an audio engineering college, and that after graduating, I should expect to do the same things I'd done as an intern there in another studio.

However, I harbor no ill-will to either the owner or lead engineer, and would welcome working with them in the future despite all the difficulties I experienced.

What I did learn was a wealth of information that I couldn't trade for anything I've done so far.
I learned that quality begins with the smallest things, like sweeping a floor or cleaning a toilet. If you do the small things well, the bigger things will be done the same way.
I learned that a lot of a producer's job is more being a sort of psychologist/negotiator than an arranger/engineer/musician.
I learned how to renovate a house from floor to ceiling and why you should wear protective clothing whenever around fiberglass.
I learned that organization from the smallest to the largest elements is essential to maintain quality and that organization keeps something complex from becoming unmanageable.
I learned that I really prefer to be a recording artist/producer than being an engineer--although I know the lines today are quite blurry on the differences between an engineer and a producer. I suppose its selfish, but I realized I'd rather be working on my own projects, or projects with artists I really believe in rather than with whomever comes in with money and wants a recording done.

Still, the entire situation took me down a few notches mentally, and made me feel like it had all been one big set-back...and still does.

Reading this thread and understanding that I'm not the only one that's gone through the experience or that because this internship didn't work out I'm not cut out for working as a professional in the industry. The fact of the matter is that whatever internship I may serve at in the future, I've already gone through a form of hell once. Whatever's next couldn't possibly be much worse, could it?

@%$# man! Sounds like you should've been the one to start this thread! I would'nt have been able to put up with 9 months of getting dicked around! You win the gold by far bro...

I believe that this whole trainee thing coold be very positive and stimulant when carried through with the right people and in a studio with good ectics, if not, we can go for a completely uninteresting and bitter experience. as it happens in many of the already related cases.

the will to learn and to work is a very noble attitude, the fact that so many are willing to execute less worthy tasks during long periods of time demonstrates the importance they give to the learning process, and I respect that a lot. However there´s always people that due to lack of caracter tend to explore the passion of the trainee.

the main reason that takes the novice to look for a place in the big studio is the possibility to learn and to work with people that they admire.

if there´s no intention to teach dont accept trainees

It´s not ok to acept this kind of situations as the traditional method, i believe for some this could be very convenient.
older than the concept of studio trainee exploration, is the concept of master and apprentice, in which the master assures to teach and to help the pupil to surpass the difficulties.



good luck for you all thumbsup

Sage advice!

They aren't likely to take you under their wing until you win them over. They have to want YOU to be the one because they like working with you. Chemistry. Sense of humor... It all helps.

I think its all about knowing your place. I mean you are an intern; most of us were...but you have to remember you're in a business, you have to somewhat "proove" yourself. Hang in there you'll get your shot; just be there eager to work and do what ever it takes to make the client happy. One day after an late night the owner/lead is going to forget/mess up something or just need you to step up...as long as you know what to do its all downhill from there. Understand that various tasks have to be done no matter how high up you are on the chain; funny story the owner of the studio where I interned was cleaning the toilet while I was editing the tracks from the session the day before...but that's how you get gigs after you leave....Hang in there man...it happens to everyone...

I will say, as a college grad of a rec. arts program, right now - i can't even give my work away for free. Not even cleaning the toilets. Here in Denver, we have too many people willing to do it. It's hard to make yourself different and stand out.

My advice would be, if you get that internship, f'ing make it work. Right now I'm considering moving, to work for free. That's right moving to a different state to work for no money. Think about that one for a second.

And as an aside, the article Jules mentioned at the start that was written by Roy Pritts..... Roy Pritts recently passed away of a heart attack at the age of 70. He was a professor of mine, and his philosophy on education was outstanding. He will be missed.

Great thread with lots of valuable information

I've been interning for 4 months now in a medium sized studio with an outstanding owner/producer/engineer. He hasn't asked me to clean the toilets(yet), but I wouldn't curse him to hell if he did. It takes about 2.5 seconds to do and I'm willing to bet that I won't get poop splashed in my face. People that wouldn't do it are obviously ridicuously spoiled.

Occasional gas $$ and food is fine to me if it means being able to sit in with some awesome bands/singer songwriters aswell as being around some great gear.
Not to mention overhearing lots of great business advice.

So after 4 months of vacuuming, dusting, and running errands I now have the opportunity to bring in some friends/bands during hours the studio is "closed".

A 4 month "trial period" and it was well worth it. I think the producer/owner/mixer/engineer now feels comfortable with me being alone around his expensive gear.

It's all about respect and trust.

In time it will come. Or everyone just hates you.

I remember when this thread first surfaced. At that time I, myself, was looking for a studio to intern at. I was searching for a LOOOONG time-- almost a year. Only recently (about 4 weeks ago) I finally scored an intern gig at a studio nearby.

After reading all of the horror stories, I was prepared for the worst and actually took it upon myself to attack the janitorial duties on my first day. The engineers at our studio are the coolest cats on the planet. Only once or twice have they actually asked my to clean anything (I usually try to do it before they ask right when I get there). Almost every day I work with a different engineer and receive hands on training. Each day I leave with at least one major nugget of info. Lately I've even been getting to "drive". They say nice things like, "Dude, you are kicking ass!" and I just roll with it and keep trying to do my best, but mostly just try my hardest to keep my mouth shut (damn that is soooo hard sometimes!). The main guy I work with will kinda ignore me if I'm asking too many questions when he's busy-- and I'm totally cool with that since I don't wanna fvck up his flow.

I never really had the opportunity or the ca$h to attend any formal training so, for me, this is like free college. I can't even express how grateful I am to these guys for giving me a shot. My point with this post is that if you are really being treated bad and don't feel like you are learning enough-- keep searching. There are sooooo many studios nowadays that it will only be a matter of time before you find another place where you will fit in and be appreciated.

I did this myself once. Personally I don't have the time to waste and be exploited. I did it for about two months and realized my time was better served making money and buying the equipment than serving a bunch of self important egotists.

Your time and money is really better served by booking a studio, watching the engineer and questioning him about why he's doing what he's doing. Since the studio is on your dime, he's working for you. I've learned much more that way in several days of bookings than in the months of internship that I once subjected myself to.

Internships that exploit you are usually a waste of your time and therefore your money.

Looks like everyone's got one of these stories...me included. There's some good advice on here. If you really want to be involved then put yourself in a situation that will lead you to the next phase of your carrier. Learn from others mistakes. Above anything else realize when your being taken advantage of. There's a lot studios out there looking for free workers. There's just as many young people who are willing to do the work just so they can say they're "working in the business". Good luck and keep your dream alive by being proactive about your life and carrier. Don't sit around waiting for someone to lend you a hand. You have to make the oppurtunity for you to be lent a hand. The secret to success is working hard and working smart.thumbsup

B

There's a lot of great responses already, but who told you that getting an intership was a good thing?

That seems to be the recording school party line and in most cases, the people you'd like to emulate do not have jobs as engineers. Michael Brauer works as an engineer, but he probably hasn't been employed asn an engineer in 20+ years.

I think getting started as an apprentice at the right studio can be a great thing, but there can't be more than a dozen or two "right studios" in the country.

As far as interships, what's in it for the studio? What do they get out of letting you in there? Free labor for crap work and you get a resume credit. That's a reasonable trade.

Let's step it up a notch. They teach you a little something. What do they get out of that?

Now you're in the control room, and you a risk. You can open your mouth at the wrong time and cost them a long term relatioship. You can keep your mouth shut and the client asks your opinion becuase they're all insecure and need to hear good things. You could open your mouth and cost a long term relatioship. Or, you could keep your mouth shut and cost them a long term relatioship.

So now, you've learned something, and the studio has you in the control room and you're a risk. Good for you, bad for them.

Now, the issue is, do they have a need for engineers that they've trained and can trust. If so, then there's a reason for them to take that risk because they have to take it on someone evetually. But, most studios don't have salaried engineers. there are many big commercial places that have a coupel who will never leave or they're commerical and it's a real estate business where the cleint brings everything and every one. Or the do hip hop or pop where the producer is operating ProTools and reocrding one mic at a time max. Or it's an owner operated place and they're never going to hire you because the owner does the work.

If you wnat to do more than that first little trade of crap work ofr a resume credit, yo've got to figure out what's in it for the studio to teach you something. Once you figure that out, everything will click. Another way to look at it is, what can you do that by them giving you money for that, they'll make back more than they paid you.

It's going to be a very rare situation where the answer is be being a good engineer. I know plenty of phenominal engineers with great credits who need work. There are more good enigneers around than necessary. I know plenty of non-great engineers making decent money. There's no specific universal reason why they're as successful as they are, but the universal reason they're getting paid is that the studio owner makes money when they pay these individuals.


Step one is make yourself valuable.

Step two is make yourself more valuable.

The closer you can get to indespensble, the more leverage you'll have to ask for what you want.

They're giving you certain responsibilities. Maybe those are your opportunities to make yourself valuable or maybe you need to get creative to make yourself valuable. I can think of lots of different approaches, but it doesn't help you to give you ideas as the best answer will be based on you as an individual.

This business is changing at the moment and it's going to continue to change. If you can't figure out how to make yourself valuable in any context, you're really going to be screwed when the context changes around you and it most definitely will.

bottom line all thing equal ..an intern gets out what he/she puts in

Not entirely true.

Major studios have over the years come to rely on a certain amount of free labor to support their operation. Don't kid yourself: cannon fodder is part of the business. Studio managers know this. Not everybody gets a shot.

Relatively few engineers give a flying fork about teaching, or apprenticeship, but hell if they're going to get their own coffee or coil a single cable... There's an institutionalized tradition of abuse and exploitation, especially at the highest levels of the business. That's just the way it is. Let's call a spade a spade.

For better or worse, that institution is in the process of crumbling, however. And as the proliferation of project & one-room studios subsumes the bigguns in importance [a process that is almost complete], it'll swing back to true apprenticeship.