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Beat Detective.
Old 21st January 2009
  #1
Beat Detective.

I am a logic user. I would like to be able to use Protools LE to edit drums.
Should I purchase a cheap mbox and get the production tool kit with elastic audio and beat detective. Anyone doing this? What's the cheapest route?
Old 21st January 2009
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
jujumies's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nu-tra View Post
I am a logic user. I would like to be able to use Protools LE to edit drums.
Should I purchase a cheap mbox and get the production tool kit with elastic audio and beat detective. Anyone doing this? What's the cheapest route?
I use also logic and I use beat detective in pro tools some times with some "great" drummers. But you need also this music production toolkit before you can use beat detective to multiple tracks. Music production toolkit costs somewhere around 400€ in Europe.

Otherwise Mbox is a good decision if you only want to use the editing options of Pro tools.

Simo
Old 21st January 2009
  #3
Gear Head
 

If you buy an mbox without the toolkit, you will at least have the option of multitrack elastic audio editing as long as your groups are set. Definitely your cheapest route.
Old 21st January 2009
  #4
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheQuietLiar View Post
If you buy an mbox without the toolkit, you will at least have the option of multitrack elastic audio editing as long as your groups are set. Definitely your cheapest route.
Elastic audio can be great for some things - I've come to the conclusion though that most of the time Beat Detective still sounds better (in fact a combo beat detective/stretching the hits that flam sounds best of all).

Cheapest option is to buy mbox micro, then get JUST the multitrack BD extension from one of the resellers that splits the packs (like dutchmuzik) - ebay or the duc for sale forums. That's assuming you never need 96k - if so, Mbox 2 is the way to go.
Old 21st January 2009
  #5
Gear Nut
 

what about cubase. does it offer some sort of beat detective ability? What is the whole "hitpoints" thing in cubase?
Old 21st January 2009
  #6
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Ol' Betsey's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nu-tra View Post
I am a logic user. I would like to be able to use Protools LE to edit drums.
Should I purchase a cheap mbox and get the production tool kit with elastic audio and beat detective. Anyone doing this? What's the cheapest route?
Hi Nu=tra,


Check David Pye's Logic 'Beat Detective' style tutorial over at the Logic Pro forum. I've used it a few times and it works great.

Slightly different than Beat Detective but also works good for changing tempos.

And regarding PTLE: There's also a workaround in LE that doesn't require you spending more money on the multitrack version. I've also used this very successfully. Search here and at the DUC.

Having said that, if you can buy JUST the multitrack 'plug-in' cheaply that might be a little timesaver for little money?

R.
Old 21st January 2009
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Betsey View Post
Hi Nu=tra,


Check David Pye's Logic 'Beat Detective' style tutorial over at the Logic Pro forum. I've used it a few times and it works great.

Slightly different than Beat Detective but also works good for changing tempos.
I use this method, and it works pretty well - I'd say give this method a proper try and also try and use Beat detective on a friends computer to see if the differences justify buying PT.
Old 21st January 2009
  #8
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nutra, you can do it quite easily manually without multitrack beat detective, takes a bit longer but not too much. Ive managed for the last 6 months or so without beatdetective so might be worth a go first to save a bit dosh. This method still destroys the logic method in my eyes
Old 21st January 2009
  #9
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H-Rezz's Avatar
 

This is one of a couple of way's to do it in Logic, explained by David Pye as stated by others ......

Logic Pro Help :: View topic - Multitrack Drum Quantize Workflow

If you think Elastic Audio is what you want you'll have to get P.Tools, but it seems to be hit or miss depending on the performance , so a lot of P.Tools guy's still find Beat Detective more natural .......
Old 21st January 2009
  #10
Gear Head
 

Workaround

There is actually a pretty easy work around in PT LE to be able to do multitrack BD. It takes a few minutes longer because you have to make a sub mix of all your drums, but it is possible. PM me if you would like the full details.
Old 21st January 2009
  #11
Gear Maniac
 
Tommy D's Avatar
 

If you do the Logic-to-PT round trip to use Beat Detective, do the tempos exactly match up between the DAW's?

In other words, if your Logic tempo is 120 bpm, and you export your tracks into a PT document set at 120 bpm, is there any tempo strecthing/drifting between the two?

Just curious...I should try this myself....I use Logic but I have also have PT w/ the Toolkit. I just need to scrape up an interface to use as a PT "dongle" so it will launch...
Old 21st January 2009
  #12
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There are work-arounds, but having a fully functional BD is just a more straightforward approach.

With capped BD you can group your drums, do your cuts manually at transients, quantize and then use BD to fill and xfade the gaps. Takes a little longer, but it works well enough.

Elastic Audio hasn't really impressed me in regards to drum editing. You can get some spectacular artifacting and flamming that seems entirely illogical. The general approach you need to take to make it work for drums is also a little bit sideways. BD very frequently sounds better than EA for drum edits.

Cubase unfortunately still doesn't seem to have the functionality to compete with the ease of BD. We were hoping it would get added in version 5, but it seems their 'beat creation' tools got the priority. I have to say the new pitchshifter and convolution verb units look ace, but it would've been nice to finally pair it all with a BD equivalent.
Old 21st January 2009
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJeffAllen View Post
There is actually a pretty easy work around in PT LE to be able to do multitrack BD. It takes a few minutes longer because you have to make a sub mix of all your drums, but it is possible. PM me if you would like the full details.
Hey Jeff,

Maybe you can add it to the Tips & Techniques section?

It comes up quite often and even though it's possible to search for it it would be great to have a quick reminder source as well.

Seeing if I can remember offhand but am not at PT now...

Isn't it:
1. Group Tracks
2. Tab to Transiet
3. Split @ Transient
4. Ungroup Tracks
5. Conform/Quantise each track individually
6. Regroup tracks and smooth/crossfade.

Is that right? It's been awhile...

R.
Old 21st January 2009
  #14
I'm using 96k haha!


Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
Elastic audio can be great for some things - I've come to the conclusion though that most of the time Beat Detective still sounds better (in fact a combo beat detective/stretching the hits that flam sounds best of all).

Cheapest option is to buy mbox micro, then get JUST the multitrack BD extension from one of the resellers that splits the packs (like dutchmuzik) - ebay or the duc for sale forums. That's assuming you never need 96k - if so, Mbox 2 is the way to go.
Old 21st January 2009
  #15
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Mike Brown's Avatar
 

Screw BD!

I think you can go much faster and get much better results editing by "hand":

Set your tool to smart tool, group drum tracks, grid mode


Tab
B
Grab region and slide it to the correct grid position
Trim out & crossfade with region before

Repeat for every beat in song.

Also you wouldn't HAVE to purchase the MPTK.... but it is a great value.
Old 21st January 2009
  #16
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ermz View Post
There are work-arounds, but having a fully functional BD is just a more straightforward approach.

With capped BD you can group your drums, do your cuts manually at transients, quantize and then use BD to fill and xfade the gaps. Takes a little longer, but it works well enough.
This is basically the Logic method - put all drum tracks in a group, use the marquee tool over the tracks you want to base your fixes off, and then just tab to transient and cut. Then quantize, and highlight all of them and apply crossfades.
Old 21st January 2009
  #17
I just tried this method in logic... It works well. I just have to practice more. Do you do these fixes per section or do you go through everything?

This guy had a nice video tutorial

YouTube - Logic Studio 8 - Lesson1 Multitrack Drum Quantizing
Old 21st January 2009
  #18
Lives for gear
 

If its a fast song with a lot of edits, ill split it into 4 or 5 sections - if its more straightforward stuff then I'll make the cuts in one pass.

Ill do the quantizing every couple of bars just to make sure everything lines up in the right place.
Old 22nd January 2009
  #19
Rad! This thread made my day. We should keep adding method or links to this thread
Old 22nd January 2009
  #20
Lives for gear
 
H-Rezz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nu-tra View Post
I just tried this method in logic... It works well. I just have to practice more. Do you do these fixes per section or do you go through everything?

This guy had a nice video tutorial

YouTube - Logic Studio 8 - Lesson1 Multitrack Drum Quantizing
This guy explains both methods , the snap to transient version and the beatmapping version , i think the beatmapping version is faster , but the snap to transient version has it's benefits in editing sections of an otherwise great drum take .....

I base all my edits of kick and snr and let the hats float inbetween, i think how one chooses to approach it is drum part dependent ...... once you have done a few you start getting ideas on how you can approach the next track and so on .....
Old 22nd January 2009
  #21
Oh so you don't do the toms too? Just the kick ands snare ok. I will look and see his beat mapping video.
Old 22nd January 2009
  #22
Lives for gear
 
H-Rezz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nu-tra View Post
Oh so you don't do the toms too? Just the kick ands snare ok. I will look and see his beat mapping video.

For the style of drums i've done so far i haven't needed to do toms, which is not say i wouldn't in the future if i felt the part needed it....

I'm also careful not to edit things within an inch of their life , Tom fills speed up and slow down for a reason so if it sounds good as is i keep it , it's a production choice at the end of the day .....
Old 10th April 2009
  #23
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Betsey View Post
Hey Jeff,

Maybe you can add it to the Tips & Techniques section?

It comes up quite often and even though it's possible to search for it it would be great to have a quick reminder source as well.

Seeing if I can remember offhand but am not at PT now...

Isn't it:
1. Group Tracks
2. Tab to Transiet
3. Split @ Transient
4. Ungroup Tracks
5. Conform/Quantise each track individually
6. Regroup tracks and smooth/crossfade.

Is that right? It's been awhile...

R.
dude, F'ing awesome, i had always edited the usual way, group tracks, and then edit as usual splitting and putting hits in the right places, which i have gotten fast at, and IMO is the best sounding as you have more room to preserve the feel but still get tracks tighter to the click etc.. but seriously, i never thought about just tabbing to transient and splitting all the transients, and then going and lining them all up as separate clips...and what's even better is that even though you could have cut a track and the one in front of it overlaps the one behind it (messing up the transient's edit), the region that was overlapped still snaps to the grid as if it was cut from the transient and all you have to do is drag the edge out from it and it will sound the same as if BD did it...that is of course if you want that "beat detected" feel while editing by hand...seriously it took like 20 mins off of each song i edit...IF i edit this way (only when i don't particularly care about the drummers feel or they just plain suck)
...now i realize how confusing that all sounds but if you get it you get it, if not just disregard me...
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