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Recording MPC tracks...
Old 23rd June 2005
  #31
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
MY ONLY PROBLEM
Has nothing to do with sync. Its when using soft synths (which i do alot of) I have to keep the individual midi channels in record mode inptools to get sound from the MPC sequences. I never need to record the sequence in the MPC but EVERY time I play the sequence I'm recording more data to ptools for NOTHIN. I think there needs to be a midi record monitor mode (like track punch but for midi)
Bingo! PT sucks for use with soft synths. Plus most of the plugins aren't optimized properly for use in RTAS. It's why I use Cubase now. I couldn't imagine actually using PT with softsynths ever again. You need to get a copy of Cubase SX3!
Old 23rd June 2005
  #32
Gear Maniac
 
BigAl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont
Bingo! PT sucks for use with soft synths. Plus most of the plugins aren't optimized properly for use in RTAS. It's why I use Cubase now. I couldn't imagine actually using PT with softsynths ever again. You need to get a copy of Cubase SX3!
I second this 110%
Old 23rd June 2005
  #33
For tracking the MPC i like the Vintech 473.

Problem is its only 4 channels.

Maybe a 473 and an API 3124.

You don't want to track the MPC 2 tracks at a time though.

There will be drift between the takes.

Midi is not a perfect solution.

Especially if its a USB inteface.

Its best to use it just once if at all possible to retain the timing between the tracks.
Old 23rd June 2005
  #34
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor

You don't want to track the MPC 2 tracks at a time though.

There will be drift between the takes.

Midi is not a perfect solution.

Especially if its a USB inteface.

Its best to use it just once if at all possible to retain the timing between the tracks.
thrillfactor;
do u think the nicerizer 8x8 would be a good box for this purpose?

i'm struggling w. the best way to integrate the mpc and the computer, from an arranging -and- tracking standpoint.
Old 23rd June 2005
  #35
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont
No, I know what I'm using but I guess I'm the only one who works like this.
No, a lot of people are using MMC together with a sync protocol. If you want your MPC tracks to line up and maintain sync with recorded tracks in your DAW you have to use MTC or Midi clock, whether you know you are using it or not.
OTOH if you don´t need the MPC to sync with anything else and just dump the tracks o the DAW, you can use MMC only.

MMC is as the name suggests merely a transport protocoland does not provide any sync info.
Old 23rd June 2005
  #36
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soultrane's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by villeman
No, a lot of people are using MMC together with a sync protocol. If you want your MPC tracks to line up and maintain sync with recorded tracks in your DAW you have to use MTC or Midi clock, whether you know you are using it or not.
OTOH if you don´t need the MPC to sync with anything else and just dump the tracks o the DAW, you can use MMC only.

MMC is as the name suggests merely a transport protocoland does not provide any sync info.
villeman or anyone;

when using mpc in conjunction w. sequencer trax... (especially for pre tracking / arranging purposes)

has anyone tested the difference in sync accuracy using the mpc as master vs. using the daw program as master?

i personally don't have any trouble using the mpc is the master... am i the only one who does it that way?
Old 23rd June 2005
  #37
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soultrane
villeman or anyone;

when using mpc in conjunction w. sequencer trax... (especially for pre tracking / arranging purposes)

has anyone tested the difference in sync accuracy using the mpc as master vs. using the daw program as master?

i personally don't have any trouble using the mpc is the master... am i the only one who does it that way?
It depends on which MPC you are using. The 4000 used to be awful while in chase mode, but things migh have changed with the new OS.
In general I prefer to use the MPC as the master, since the special "MPC feel" is maintained that way. It will always be a bit compromised when it is in chase mode, specially with midi clock which also contains tempo information.

Also, I tend to record he MPC tracks (10 track to he DAW) as many passes as needed and then work from there without sync.
Old 23rd June 2005
  #38
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BigAl's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Its best to use it just once if at all possible to retain the timing between the tracks.
Hey Thrill,
What if you need to raise the volume up or down just a little bit here and there for the snare, kicks or whatever within the MPC. If everthing is recorded at the same time, then how do you make adjustments after it's printed to disk? Do you just use a mulitiband or something? The reason why I ask this is because sometimes when you think it's just right within the MPC mixer, it isn't.

--Peace
Old 23rd June 2005
  #39
no ssl yet
Guest
BIG AL

Al, Thrill is not suggesting you track all the sounds to 2tracks. LOL separate the outputs and track the kick to its own track, snr to a track, etc... That way u have control over the MIX when you MIX.

I've been lucky I guess. I've been noticing that my MPC2k locks up pretty well for successive passes. HEll maybe its because I have a simple USB midi interface only 2in2out. I dont know why, I'm just glad it works well

I always make the computer the master. Id rather the drum machine chases so that I dont always need the drum machine present if I'm somewhere with just the ptools rig.



Tony, I have another G4. I'm thinking of using it for my soft synths. Havent toyed with what Program I'm gonna use, as long as I can run Mach5 and Sample Tank, I'm in. The only other things I run are Trilogy, Atmosphere and a few others, but M5 and ST are my Must haves

Hell I may just sequence in ptools
Old 23rd June 2005
  #40
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BigAl's Avatar
 

Oh.......Ok!!!
Old 24th June 2005
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet
Al, Thrill is not suggesting you track all the sounds to 2tracks. LOL separate the outputs and track the kick to its own track, snr to a track, etc... That way u have control over the MIX when you MIX.

I've been lucky I guess. I've been noticing that my MPC2k locks up pretty well for successive passes. HEll maybe its because I have a simple USB midi interface only 2in2out. I dont know why, I'm just glad it works well

I always make the computer the master. Id rather the drum machine chases so that I dont always need the drum machine present if I'm somewhere with just the ptools rig.



Tony, I have another G4. I'm thinking of using it for my soft synths. Havent toyed with what Program I'm gonna use, as long as I can run Mach5 and Sample Tank, I'm in. The only other things I run are Trilogy, Atmosphere and a few others, but M5 and ST are my Must haves

Hell I may just sequence in ptools

No SSL,

If you do it in passes check the sample accuracy in PT.

You will see that from track to track its way off.

This throws off the timing and feel of the tracks.

Its another reason to track all outputs at once or if you are lucky track to tape.
Old 24th June 2005
  #42
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl
The U5 or something like it is good for the MPC and that's what you hear on a lot of tracks out there. It cost like $500 or less. You might can find something else like it for less. Since you like hiphop and your funds are tight, you can use the U5 for now, but you need to check-out other high end preamp so you can get the feel of what's happening.
Would you say that the U5 contributes to a more modern sound? I prefer the raw sound of early / mid '90s. That's why I got MPC-C60 and S950... What would be some preamps to check out, in your opinion?

Paultools and Thrill suggested Neve 1073, API 3124, Avalon 737sp and Vintech 473.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
You don't want to track the MPC 2 tracks at a time though.

There will be drift between the takes.

Midi is not a perfect solution.
I guess I can forget the idea of getting nice dual A/D converter, since the sync wouldn't be perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by villeman
In general I prefer to use the MPC as the master, since the special "MPC feel" is maintained that way. It will always be a bit compromised when it is in chase mode, specially with midi clock which also contains tempo information.
I thought that since I'll be recording my MPC tracks as audio, no timing change would occur by slaving the MPC to the computer. I thought all the sync does is locking the MPC and the software together, so when I hit "RECORD" on the computer, the MPC starts playing as well. I didn't realize it would alter the actual midi events. Does what I said make sense?

Do most of you make the MPC slave or master?
Old 24th June 2005
  #43
Gear Nut
 

I'm still not sure about this. Can any of you guys explain it to me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steamy Williams
You don't need a 16 channel AD converter, however a simple patchbay might make life easier if want carry on using your mixer, but bypass it when recording into the 2 channel AD converter.
If I want to keep using my mixer, how would I bypass it when recording? I thought bypassing means not using ....

Thanks a lot.
Old 24th June 2005
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmotr


I guess I can forget the idea of getting nice dual A/D converter, since the sync wouldn't be perfect.


Heck i am not saying its impossible, i am just saying it will take a little extra to keep the feel of your tracks.

For some this isn't a big issue. for a person like me who agonizes if there's a slight shift its crazy.

Basically you would have to shift the tracks by samples to get them to line up.

I prefer to work in Logic for producing and PT for mixing, only problem is the feel changes from program to another.

And don't even mention locking 2 programs up and dumping it that way.

Also dumping outboard synths is pain because of the shifts.
Old 24th June 2005
  #45
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Heck i am not saying its impossible, i am just saying it will take a little extra to keep the feel of your tracks.

For some this isn't a big issue. for a person like me who agonizes if there's a slight shift its crazy.

Basically you would have to shift the tracks by samples to get them to line up.
So if I used a few passes to record all of the individual tracks, the "out of sync" means that some tracks would start slightly later than others (simply put), but there are no changes within one track?

No single notes or drum hits are delayed within one track, it's the whole track that's delayed.

In order to get them lined up again (as they were in the MPC), I'd have to manually move them so that they all start at the same time. Am I gettin this right?

What about keeping the "MPC feel"? Do you think I'd loose it if I slaved the MPC to the software?

Thanks a lot for your help Thrill...
Old 24th June 2005
  #46
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
I prefer to work in Logic for producing and PT for mixing, only problem is the feel changes from program to another.
Could you tell me a little more about this? How does the "feel" change? Does the sound change as well?

Do you have any experience with SAWStudio? I've read about its "superior" sound compared to other software programs...

Thanks.
Old 24th June 2005
  #47
Moderator
 
TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmotr
Could you tell me a little more about this? How does the "feel" change? Does the sound change as well?

Do you have any experience with SAWStudio? I've read about its "superior" sound compared to other software programs...

Thanks.
tutt Don't believe everything you read....
Old 24th June 2005
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmotr
Could you tell me a little more about this? How does the "feel" change? Does the sound change as well?

Do you have any experience with SAWStudio? I've read about its "superior" sound compared to other software programs...

Thanks.
The feel changes because there are slight delays in the tracks.

Sonic wise it would change slightly.

Sorry I have no experience with SAWStudio.

I am mostly a Logic/Pt guy.
Old 24th June 2005
  #49
Gear Nut
 

Thanks guys. Did I get this right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmotr
So if I used a few passes to record all of the individual tracks, the "out of sync" means that some tracks would start slightly later than others (simply put), but there are no changes within one track?

No single notes or drum hits are delayed within one track, it's the whole track that's delayed.

In order to get them lined up again (as they were in the MPC), I'd have to manually move them so that they all start at the same time. Am I gettin this right?

What about keeping the "MPC feel"? Do you think I'd loose it if I slaved the MPC to the software?
Old 24th June 2005
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmotr
Thanks guys. Did I get this right?
thumbsup

Remember when tracking with MTC or Beat clock you are basically dealing with a signal that goes through the computers processor out through a USB cable through an interface out through a midi cable to another processor in the MPC.

That's a lot of things to go through.

Lots of places where things could get delayed.

Its part of the reason people like producing on older MPC's and SP1200's anyway.

You eliminate a lot of travel and you can keep your feel.

Its also why it tracks sound so tight.
Old 24th June 2005
  #51
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Yo Kmotr,

You are worrying about stuff that isn't that big of a deal. We're talking about hip hop!

Half the sh!t you hear on the radio nowadays is tracked at home on a 002, then mixed somewhere else... You are talking to engineers who are in pursuit of perfection. Don't get caught up in the I have to have this preamp, with this AD converter, with this blah, blah, etc... Just make some records. The sound of the mid 90's is not "high quality", as most of that was tracked through 16 and 20 bit converters (although tape was still a standard for tracking).... A Digi 002 with McDSP Analog Channel (to give you a tape like effect for your tracks) will get you where you want to be. Sure it isn't a Studer 827 with an SSL, but unless you are a good engineer you won't be able to enjoy the benfits of having that gear...

My suggestion to you is buy a Digi 002 or 002 rack, and get a couple channels of decent preamp (are you even going to be tracking vocals)... Maybe buy an API lunchbox and put 2 x 512's in it, or an Aurora Audio GTQ2mkIII... Use the Pro Tools software, that's what every song you've heard for the last 5 years has been mixed with... If you can't get the sound you are looking for with that setup, then you should look at your own production skills, not the gear. You're using 12 bit samplers and are worried about the "superior sound quality of SAWstudio"???

Like I said don't get caught up in the gear.... I've seen Timbaland sample sh!t out of a friggin' headphone jack into an ASR! As long as it's hot, it's hot... it doesn't matter what kind of DI or preamp or software, etc you use. I can tell by your questions that you are new to all this, and this is when you will make your best beats... before your mind gets cluttered with the gear and "doing things the right way".

Like I said, just make some tracks... use whatever you can afford... and don't worry so much about all these little things that in the end aren't going to amount to much.
Old 24th June 2005
  #52
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Remember when tracking with MTC or Beat clock you are basically dealing with a signal that goes through the computers processor out through a USB cable through an interface out through a midi cable to another processor in the MPC.

That's a lot of things to go through.

Lots of places where things could get delayed.
So far I'm following ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
Its part of the reason people like producing on older MPC's and SP1200's anyway.

You eliminate a lot of travel and you can keep your feel.

Its also why it tracks sound so tight.
I don't understand this. How producing on older MPC's and SP1200's eliminate a lot of signal travel? When I'm recording, I still have to sync the software and old MPC or SP1200, right? What's the difference between recording new MPC1000 and old SP1200?



Tony, thans for your post. You're absolutely right. I am new to this and I might be getting too caught up in details. I know I was asking about some specific preamps earlier, but I started this thread with MIDI, syncing issues and stuff like that in my mind. I'd like to understand the recording process as well as I can.

You're right though .... I gotta focus on making music, not getting caught up in gear. Thanks a lot.
Old 24th June 2005
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmotr
So far I'm following ....


I don't understand this. How producing on older MPC's and SP1200's eliminate a lot of signal travel? When I'm recording, I still have to sync the software and old MPC or SP1200, right? What's the difference between recording new MPC1000 and old SP1200?
I meant in response to sequencing.

The time it takes from a drum sound to be triggered from the pad is faster than when you try to do it through a midi cable and a keyboard/controller.

Again this is all tech/geek stuff.

As i said before some people don't notice or don't care.

To me i notice these things and it drives me up the wall.

To each his own.

Good luck with it anyhow.
Old 24th June 2005
  #54
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
I meant in response to sequencing.

The time it takes from a drum sound to be triggered from the pad is faster than when you try to do it through a midi cable and a keyboard/controller.
Absolutley. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't asking about triggering MPC samples by a software sequencer. This whole time I was asking about recording audio from MPC to software. That's why I couldn't understand how is recording newer MPC different from recording an older MPC.

Do I make more sense now?
Old 24th June 2005
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmotr
Absolutley. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't asking about triggering MPC samples by a software sequencer. This whole time I was asking about recording audio from MPC to software. That's why I couldn't understand how is recording newer MPC different from recording an older MPC.

Do I make more sense now?
Old 24th June 2005
  #56
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont
My suggestion to you is buy a Digi 002 or 002 rack, and get a couple channels of decent preamp (are you even going to be tracking vocals)
I missed this before. I'm not planning on tracking vocals at this point. All I wanna do is to record my tracks. Someone suggested to use preamps on the way in, to beef up the sound. I didn't even know about using preamps this way. I thought they were used for mics....
Old 24th June 2005
  #57
Gear Nut
 

One more question heh

I've been going through old posts here, trying to learn as much as I can, and I came across this:

Quote:
Crunch. The SP tops the list, great for snares but IMO it left kiks a little thin. Also IMO, a drawmer gate is a must in the studio for the SP, it's just a noisey little mofo that really benefits some tight gating. Maybe a "back in the day" engineer can say if this was the case then but for me, 2 drawmer 4 ways were always left for the SP.
Would you guys agree? I'm not sayin I'll run to get a Drawmer Gate, but I'd like to know about these techniques / tricks used for tracking.

Thanks again...
Old 24th June 2005
  #58
no ssl yet
Guest
Man there are no silver bullets in this Biz

Man I used to have an outboard wish list that was over $80 Gs worth of ****. The truth is that Now I know I probably will never buy the ****. (There are toooo many better investments) Dont let engineers get u down. I reached a point where I have decided to not buy anything else except a few plugins and maybe a mastering level comp/EQ. MAKE MUSIC!!!! without music, there is no use for gear, but there can be music without gear.

TRACK your MPC in passes. I used to do it daily (I only had 2 channels in, I had a TC finalizer plus (that I'll sell at a good price). Did I have the best converter? NO, Did I make music? OF course Honestly, I shift **** around in ptools eventually anyway. **** the feel of an MPC. Get the feel thats in your head! NO MACHINE EVER Gave me this (though the Roland R8 came close). Tony B gave u the best advice.

Thrill is an engineer, He has a responsibility to keep the feel of a producer's tracks when he tracks something. A producer does not have that responsibility. he can shift **** till its how he hears it because it's his baby

Often folk will tell u what they have been hearing people say. (MPC alone is thin u gotta thicken it up etc...) LOL. Man I have been in the trenches of alot of major label records LOL THere are NO Rules there. Its mainly about what will help your workflow and keep it moving

With that said. Will an Altiverb instance sound as good as a 480L , NO but should you invest in a 480L level verb? I wouldnt! We have far better tools than the cats that made alot of the records We liked in the past. MAKE MUSIC!!!

The only thing i've learned that is almost constant in this is when you hear a kick in a mix that doesnt have enough attack (for example) 95% of the time if you go back and listen to the source sample in the MPC, IT NEVER HAD ATTACK. Buy tools that help you to alter the sound at the source. If you dont plan to do vox, you have no purpose for a MICROPHONE pre amp, let alone many diff flavors of MICROPHONE pre Amps.

instead, get you some decent reasonably price active DIs and some sound altering tools. GET a distressor, a Massive Passive, 1176 somethings that you can use to make it sound like u hear it in your head.
Old 24th June 2005
  #59
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ttauri's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
You don't want to track the MPC 2 tracks at a time though.

There will be drift between the takes.
How would it be if you just used the MPC's internal clock? Just wondering, as this discussion reminded me of a time years ago when I tracked to a Sonic Solutions system with stuff done on my EPS-16+'s sequencer, with a few metronome clicks at the beginning of each track to line them up, and the timing was super-tight (and the song was real long too!--17 minutes).

Peece,
T. Tauri
Old 24th June 2005
  #60
Gear Head
 

I never use any sync with MPC or anything else.

Just record the tracks into Samplitude and line them up by sight or ear.

Cut and paste to taste.


Scott Alger

Parkside Studio,Chicago
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