The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Chris Lord Alge Drum Reverb?
Old 18th June 2005
  #31
Lives for gear
 
robmix's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Labs
A woman can't be a lord...Your saying their mother was a lord and their father was an Alge ?

Gustav
That's her stage name, she is a jazz singer.
Old 18th June 2005
  #32
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by krid
Could you tell us what TLA explained / showed during this seminar ?

I love the mix of "Word Up" : what did he do during this mix (replace the drums ... ?) and what did you learn ?


Thanks
Well, first he said that the first thing he does when he gets the Pro Tools session is transfer and consolidate everything and print to the Sony 3348 machine (16 bit/48K!!!). That's the source he does the final mix from.

As far as drums, on this song at least he had about 3 different kick drums going. There was the one supplied by Korn, then there were two more that were samples Tom added in, each with its own sound and character. The three together comprised the final kick "sound".

For snare, he kept the original snare (he said he always keeps the original snare, since there is usually stick drags, ghost notes, etc.), and again augmented with his own snare samples for the smack. Not sure if he compressed each individually or all as one, since he had printed back to the 3348 most of his processing already.

Overheads were pretty well compressed, and the room tracks were positively crushed to hell, which, once he put those in, all of the sudden there was all the ambience and bigness for the kit. I don't think any outboard or artificial reverb was used, it was all room mic ambience.

Korn had included a drum loop from the original recording of "Word Up", which Tom EQ'd to have a midrangey, loopy sound. He also spanked the hell out of it with compression and keyed the input of the compressor with the kick drum from the drums, so that each time the kick drum hit, it would severely duck (basically mute) the loop's kick so there was no flamming between the loop and the kick drum.

The bass came up on one fader, and was compressed pretty hard, so that it just sat right there in the mix, around 40ms attack and 80ms release. I asked him about the rumour that he liked to roll off the low end with a high pass filter to about 130Hz or so, and dial the lows back in with a sharp bell bump around 90Hz or so, and he was non-committal about the answer.

There were a bunch of guitar tracks, all with varying tones and EQ's. Some sounded out of place by themselves with odd EQ's, but put all together it created a really huge sound.

The vocal was so compressed, I can't begin to describe it to you. Even Tom commented how massively compressed he had it when he brought it up by itself. We didn't get the full chain, but it appeared he had at least two, maybe three compressors in series on the vocal. However, when he brought up his vocal effects, which he had printed to two tracks on the 3348, all of the sudden it sounded just right. It was a combination of delay and reverb, and Tom said usually off the bat when he pulls up a mix he'll calculate 1/4 note and 1/8 note triplet delays to have available for various elements.

He said he usually uses the Red 3 for a few db of compression on the stereo mix with a low ratio 1.5:1, although for this mix he had gone back to the SSL bus compressor. And finally, he prints to 1/2" analog tape for the final mix, which gives him some additional compression. I'll post some other obvservations later. Gotta get back to a session...
Old 19th June 2005
  #33
Gear Addict
 
krid's Avatar
 

Thanks a lot Zach, that was very informative !

What about the automation, he does a lot of rides ? riding the master fader ?


Feel free to add other observations
Old 19th June 2005
  #34
Lives for gear
 
DirkB's Avatar
Thanks for sharing Zach, I certainly like to here some more!

Greetings,
Dirk
Old 19th June 2005
  #35
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
He didn't do any master fader rides that I was aware of, but plenty of automation stuff. The vocal alone required lots of moves, just to duck the breaths, since they were super loud after being so massively compressed.

A couple other things of note. There is this really high pitched divebomb sound that was originally buried later in the song, and Tom decided to fly it over to the solo section to make the section more interesting. That's one thing he said he does all the time, which is try rearranging elements or sections if he thinks it will add something to the song. He said when someone hires him to do a mix, they're going to have to hear his mix first (i.e. what he envisioned), and then if they don't like the changes he's done they can have whatever mix they want with the original parts and arrangement.

He also said when sending ref mixes to the label mooks, he'll run the mix through a Finalizer for a pseudo homebrew mastering job so that it will be nice and loud for the mooks, and that way they don't call back saying it doesn't sound as "loud" as their other CD's and requesting unnecessary changes.

Tom also mentioned that in general he rolls off everything below 40Hz on basically every track, as there's no need for any of the info down there which will just eat up headroom. And of course he never uses any plugins, only hardware outboard gear, unless there was something very specific that the client printed as an effect or special sound from Pro Tools.

He still monitors mainly using NS-10's coupled with a single subwoofer, and feels that if he can get the mix sounding great on those, he's got it made.

And finally, there is one secret weapon he uses on drums, particularly snare, that can instantly get the sound he likes, and that is the SPL Transient Designer. Countdown to ebay price explosion, 3, 2, 1....
Old 19th June 2005
  #36
Gear Nut
 
Local 47's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
The bass came up on one fader, and was compressed pretty hard, so that it just sat right there in the mix, around 40ms attack and 80ms release. I asked him about the rumour that he liked to roll off the low end with a high pass filter to about 130Hz or so, and dial the lows back in with a sharp bell bump around 90Hz or so, and he was non-committal about the answer.
Bass on one fader?? Being only one bass track, or two tracks comped to one SSL channel?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
However, when he brought up his vocal effects, which he had printed to two tracks on the 3348, all of the sudden it sounded just right. It was a combination of delay and reverb, and Tom said usually off the bat when he pulls up a mix he'll calculate 1/4 note and 1/8 note triplet delays to have available for various elements.
Why would he want to print his effects on te 3348? Doesn't it make more sense to have them on an aux or subgroup on the console? Are they printed after a pass through the console?
Old 19th June 2005
  #37
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Local 47
Bass on one fader?? Being only one bass track, or two tracks comped to one SSL channel?
Can't be sure. When he brought the 3348 reel with him, he had done some pre-processing and printing for the purposes of the seminar. All I know is that he had printed the bass back to one track/fader on the 3348.

Quote:
Why would he want to print his effects on te 3348? Doesn't it make more sense to have them on an aux or subgroup on the console? Are they printed after a pass through the console?
My understanding is he prints everything back to the 3348 with all his processing when he's done, so that in case there's a need for slight tweaks or changes to the mix later (or remixes), he doesn't have to go through the hassle of doing a full console and outboard gear recall. So yes, initially it goes through the console and gets printed afterward.
Old 19th June 2005
  #38
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by decibel
The mixes were not "loud", but they have that quality where everything fits into a tight little package. Even though the bass is huge, there is a........the only word I can think of is "compressed" sound. They sound that way, even on little speakers. You can tell that it sounds huge and rockin' no matter what speakers you are listening on.
When I started mixing stuff for myself, one of the things that baffled me was the way some guys' stuff would have a similar character on different systems; my stuff would work really well on a couple of systems, average on most and terrible on some. I'm a lot more consistent now, but what you describe above can make me crazy sometimes. I try not to put on reference stuff in the middle of mixing, but sometimes I can't help myself. The danger is that I'll put something on that has that 'succinct' -ness and then I'll chase it, only to end up too far in the other direction.

I'm getting better about all that, though. It seems to me that the big improvements of that kind aren't the kind that show up like an epiphany, but rather you notice them mostly when you compare your current stuff to your older stuff.

Interesting stuff!
Old 20th June 2005
  #39
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redsandblu
Interesting Zach !!

Care to share anything about his mixing approach on guitars?
What about subgrouping? Does every instrument group have its own subgroup with compressors and eqs?

Cheers,

DC
Wish I could provide more info on the guitar stuff, but he had done a lot of pre-processing and printing before the seminar. The one thing I noted was how he carved out the various guitar tracks to all have different sonic signatures, some of which alone didn't sound great, but all put together sounded really good.

He didn't appear to use much if any subgroup processing, everything was still coming up on their own faders and directly feeding the stereo mix bus.
Old 20th June 2005
  #40
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
Femio, is that you?

Anyway, I have to laugh here. In one breath, you say you could list every piece of gear and setting, and it wouldn't matter, then in the next breath you say TLA wouldn't appreciate you laying it out like that. If it doesn't matter, and specifying gear and settings won't give similar results, why should Tom care at all?


I don't know if he cares or not, all I'm saying is that it isn't my place to lay his settings and what not out. If they were MY settings, fine take a look, but they're not so i can't divulge them. Simple as that. What kind of an assistant would I be if i were running to the internet with every mix technique TLA uses?

And no, this isn't Femio, I just cover for him sometimes.
Old 20th June 2005
  #41
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
He didn't do any master fader rides that I was aware of, but plenty of automation stuff. The vocal alone required lots of moves, just to duck the breaths, since they were super loud after being so massively compressed.

A couple other things of note. There is this really high pitched divebomb sound that was originally buried later in the song, and Tom decided to fly it over to the solo section to make the section more interesting. That's one thing he said he does all the time, which is try rearranging elements or sections if he thinks it will add something to the song. He said when someone hires him to do a mix, they're going to have to hear his mix first (i.e. what he envisioned), and then if they don't like the changes he's done they can have whatever mix they want with the original parts and arrangement.

He also said when sending ref mixes to the label mooks, he'll run the mix through a Finalizer for a pseudo homebrew mastering job so that it will be nice and loud for the mooks, and that way they don't call back saying it doesn't sound as "loud" as their other CD's and requesting unnecessary changes.

Tom also mentioned that in general he rolls off everything below 40Hz on basically every track, as there's no need for any of the info down there which will just eat up headroom. And of course he never uses any plugins, only hardware outboard gear, unless there was something very specific that the client printed as an effect or special sound from Pro Tools.

He still monitors mainly using NS-10's coupled with a single subwoofer, and feels that if he can get the mix sounding great on those, he's got it made.

And finally, there is one secret weapon he uses on drums, particularly snare, that can instantly get the sound he likes, and that is the SPL Transient Designer. Countdown to ebay price explosion, 3, 2, 1....

Your actually wrong on some of this stuff, but i guess thats what TLA wants think, so i'll leave it at that.
Old 20th June 2005
  #42
Lives for gear
 
wallace's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by decibel
He did replace the kick drums on every song with his own sample, but left the snares alone(I had samples with those already).
Andy
Did he have any particular method to replace the kick with his samples?
Old 20th June 2005
  #43
Lives for gear
 
studjo's Avatar
 

Boys just invite him for a guest mod and you'll get all the answers
Old 20th June 2005
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854

Personally, I think TLA's done some great work, but quite frankly, I just don't get the whole purpose of misleading people. I mean, if you want to keep how you do things a secret, fine, just say you choose not to divulge it. But to actually make stuff up or give false answers is just ridiculous.
I think the idea is that he might have left certain things out more than put out misleading info.

It might be for time sake or personal/professional reasons, etc.

Everything you mentioned is pretty much normal and or standard by everyone.
Old 20th June 2005
  #45
Gear Addict
 
seb37000's Avatar
 

Thanks for the great info zboy,
tla being well known for using many compressors I was wondering if you saw which ones were used and on which instruments ?
Old 20th June 2005
  #46
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by seb37000
Thanks for the great info zboy,
tla being well known for using many compressors I was wondering if you saw which ones were used and on which instruments ?
No, unfortunately, he had already done much of his pre-processing and printing back to the 3348 reel he brought to the seminar.
Old 21st June 2005
  #47
Gear Addict
 
jerdude's Avatar
 

here is what i think..... heh

alot of times the settings and gear you choose.... and the way you get sounds in a mix.... evolves over a period of time as you are developing EARS.... you make choices and use specific gear in a certain way based on what you are hearing.

so if TLA and CLA don't want to reveal certain techniques.... i think its because they feel its their creative techniques.... stuff that has taken them some serious time and ear training to get really good at.

why should they just tell everyone how they do it?

maybe some mix guys will come along that have different techniques based on serious time and ear investment.... and they will become the "hot" guys.

am i making sense?
Old 21st June 2005
  #48
Lives for gear
 
blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerdude
stuff that has taken them some serious time and ear training to get really good at.

why should they just tell everyone how they do it?
I think these guys do great work and are at the top of the game.

That being said, I MUCH prefer the attitude of say, guys like (our own GSer) Michael Wagener, who will happily share anything in total detail... Michael understands that there are variables involved (such as ears and skillsets) that cannot be transfered, and is not threatened in the least by sharing any particulars. He realizes that the most important variable in achieving those results is Michael Wagener.

BTW, Eddie Van Halen was NOTORIOUS for spreading MISinformation. I think he just wanted to see how may 'sheep' would try his 'tips'... A lot of guitar players ruined a lot of gear (between 78-83 or so), chasing his tone. The big joke was, it (his tone) was primarily in his hands...
Old 21st June 2005
  #49
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by wallace
Did he have any particular method to replace the kick with his samples?

His assistant did it with Sound Replacer as far as I know.....but I wasn't there when he was doing it.
Old 21st June 2005
  #50
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
BTW, Eddie Van Halen was NOTORIOUS for spreading MISinformation. I think he just wanted to see how may 'sheep' would try his 'tips'... A lot of guitar players ruined a lot of gear (between 78-83 or so), chasing his tone. The big joke was, it (his tone) was primarily in his hands...
Robbie Robertson did the same thing, which he claims led to the development of Seymour Duncan pickups. (He told Seymour that he put extra windings in his pickups.)

Chris Garges
Charlotte, NC
Old 22nd June 2005
  #51
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

so i talked to someone I know who was also at the Hit Factory for TLAs workshop and as it turns out, TLA wasn't putting out false or misleading info, everything he put out there was true, but the guy who i quoted a few posts back just got things mixed up. Just wanted to clarify that TLA isn't putting out false info, its this guy who is.
Old 22nd June 2005
  #52
Gear Addict
 
xaos's Avatar
 

RickRock: Seeing as this mixup isn't secret info, care to share the correct information? You kinda opened the can o' worms yourself on this one.
Old 22nd June 2005
  #53
lwr
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi

BTW, Eddie Van Halen was NOTORIOUS for spreading MISinformation. I think he just wanted to see how may 'sheep' would try his 'tips'... A lot of guitar players ruined a lot of gear (between 78-83 or so), chasing his tone. The big joke was, it (his tone) was primarily in his hands...

haha, have you got any stories linked to this! id love to hear them! hah
Old 22nd June 2005
  #54
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

xaos, here's some clarification for you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
He didn't do any master fader rides that I was aware of, but plenty of automation stuff. The vocal alone required lots of moves, just to duck the breaths, since they were super loud after being so massively compressed.


he does do some automation stuff, but a lot of it is to put dynamics back into the record that have been lost due to heavy compression.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854

A couple other things of note. There is this really high pitched divebomb sound that was originally buried later in the song, and Tom decided to fly it over to the solo section to make the section more interesting. That's one thing he said he does all the time, which is try rearranging elements or sections if he thinks it will add something to the song. He said when someone hires him to do a mix, they're going to have to hear his mix first (i.e. what he envisioned), and then if they don't like the changes he's done they can have whatever mix they want with the original parts and arrangement.

He also said when sending ref mixes to the label mooks, he'll run the mix through a Finalizer for a pseudo homebrew mastering job so that it will be nice and loud for the mooks, and that way they don't call back saying it doesn't sound as "loud" as their other CD's and requesting unnecessary changes.

Tom also mentioned that in general he rolls off everything below 40Hz on basically every track, as there's no need for any of the info down there which will just eat up headroom.

He still monitors mainly using NS-10's coupled with a single subwoofer, and feels that if he can get the mix sounding great on those, he's got it made.
This is all correct.



Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854

And of course he never uses any plugins, only hardware outboard gear, unless there was something very specific that the client printed as an effect or special sound from Pro Tools.

And finally, there is one secret weapon he uses on drums, particularly snare, that can instantly get the sound he likes, and that is the SPL Transient Designer. Countdown to ebay price explosion, 3, 2, 1....


He does use plugins. And the distressor is another key drum weapon.
Old 22nd June 2005
  #55
Lives for gear
 

When I assisted TLA a few years back I noticed that most of his tricks are in the pre-processing, he'd sit for a while making a snare chain (i think it was a distressor and a daking that day as well as ssl) and print it to tape sounding almost like a sample. this seemed to be a good majority of the time...as soon as he liked the sound it got dumped to 3348, crazy FX as well. If someone were to take his processed 3348 tape, the results would be pretty close already...he uses some auto, but I've seen mixes his brother did where the G computer screen faders barely moved....just a couple vox rides and gtr pushes for different song sections. Oh yeah, one more trick seems to be using bunches of delays and reverbs in the crs when there was a wall of gtrs and making it bone dry when the vocal is more on its own to give the illusion of dryness while still sounding full.
Anyway, fun thread I'm sure we have a lot of former assistants on this board like myself if anyone wants to know tricks of the big mixers just throw out some names.
-brian
Old 22nd June 2005
  #56
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305
xaos, here's some clarification for you.






he does do some automation stuff, but a lot of it is to put dynamics back into the record that have been lost due to heavy compression.




This is all correct.







He does use plugins. And the distressor is another key drum weapon.
I think in reading Zboys post we all assumed these things.
Old 22nd June 2005
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickrock305
so i talked to someone I know who was also at the Hit Factory for TLAs workshop and as it turns out, TLA wasn't putting out false or misleading info, everything he put out there was true, but the guy who i quoted a few posts back just got things mixed up. Just wanted to clarify that TLA isn't putting out false info, its this guy who is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
Uhh, sorry pal but NO. I was there with a notebook, and I wrote down notes about the seminar. Since you weren't there, you obviously aren't aware of the fact that the attendees were split into two different groups that went into the studio with Tom one at a time, so he did the seminar twice. Maybe your "contact" was in the other group and didn't hear the info I heard, but everything I've stated is what I recorded during the seminar. Try again.
So TLA was putting out false info??

heh

I think you guys are saying the same thing but I could be wrong.. it's all cool. Zboy you might want to reread what rickrock said? No biggie just want to avert a flame war if we can.
Old 22nd June 2005
  #58
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
It's all good, no flaming here. Rickrock, it would appear that in fact the majority of what I stated you have confirmed as true. And with respect to the automation, my initial answer about it was with respect to the master fader, not individual tracks, because that's what I observed at the seminar. Now, it may have been that since TLA was re-creating the mix there, he didn't do actual master fader rides that he did do in the actual mix, I'm just reporting that he didn't do any master fader rides at the seminar.

With respect to using plugins, TLA's response was that he usually only does something with a plugin if it's a specific effect that was used or gave a track a certain sound that the client or producer was married to.

Otherwise it would appear that we are in agreement on all the other points.
Old 23rd June 2005
  #59
Gear Guru
 
rickrock305's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
Uhh, sorry pal but NO. I was there with a notebook, and I wrote down notes about the seminar. Since you weren't there, you obviously aren't aware of the fact that the attendees were split into two different groups that went into the studio with Tom one at a time, so he did the seminar twice. Maybe your "contact" was in the other group and didn't hear the info I heard, but everything I've stated is what I recorded during the seminar. Try again.

Damn bud, lighten up a little. I can't personally say what TLA said or didn't say, but I know how he works, and i know that some of the info you put out there is not correct.

No, he doesn't do master fader rides, except for the fade out.

And yes, he does use plugins, often.
Old 23rd June 2005
  #60
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
No offense taken or intended. It's cool.

So, are you at liberty to say what plugins he likes to use? No need to reveal actual settings or anything. I'm just surprised, considering what I had heard, as well as the fact that a lot of folks (myself included) feel that plugins still don't rival hardware in terms of sound...
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump