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Leslie for guitar?
Old 26th March 2003
  #1
Gear Nut
 
tee's Avatar
 

Leslie for guitar?

Hey folks,
I saw the mention of the Leslie for guitar within the amp thread up @ Slip's forum, thought it'd be pretty cool to try some time - although I had no idea where I'd get a Leslie.

Well lo and behold, this past week I'm visiting a friend and the first thing I spot when I walk into his storage room is his uncle's Model-120 Leslie-Tone cab. He wasn't using it, so now it's sitting at my place, along with a small extension cab that didn't have a model #.

The Model-120 does not have it's own amp, just a 2 speed drum and a 12" speaker. So I'm wondering if anyone has used this with guitar?? If you did, how do you connect the two? I was thinking of using the speaker out on my little Trace Elliot Velocette, but I'm not sure if there's some kind of adaptor to go from a 1/4 inch cable to a Leslie 6-pin connector. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Tony
Old 26th March 2003
  #2
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Like someone said on the other thread, there is a preamp pedal which "converts" 1/4" to the 6-pin deal. I've never encountered a Leslie 120 other then sticking a mic or three on one so I'm not much help.
Old 26th March 2003
  #3
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Steve Smith's Avatar
 

You need the pre-pedal. and it kicks ass. Try it on Bass.. really cool, I think, odd, but wayyyyy cool in the right application.
Old 26th March 2003
  #4
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sonic dogg's Avatar
I own and use a 120 on guitar...usually through an old ampeg head...the custom power and switch cable you will need for this is very simple and easy to build...you just need an amp to run it..i use it with my fendr blues jr sitting right on top and the ampeg head off the side...what a great setup!PM me and i'll send you a diagram of the pins on the leslie box...you will need a standard six-pin leslie connector or go buy a leslie preamp...you'll still need an amp.......
Old 26th March 2003
  #5
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covert's Avatar
 

Re: Leslie for guitar?

Quote:
Originally posted by tee
Well lo and behold, this past week I'm visiting a friend and the first thing I spot when I walk into his storage room is his uncle's Model-120 Leslie-Tone cab. He wasn't using it, so now it's sitting at my place

The Model-120 does not have it's own amp, just a 2 speed drum and a 12" speaker. So I'm wondering if anyone has used this with guitar?? If you did, how do you connect the two? I was thinking of using the speaker out on my little Trace Elliot Velocette, but I'm not sure if there's some kind of adaptor to go from a 1/4 inch cable to a Leslie 6-pin connector. Any ideas?
I have on of these, and they can sound great.
Any decent guitar head will drive it just fine. Do be aware that the speaker isn't rated for a lot of power, if it's the stock speaker. The pinout of the plug is easily found on the web, or you can install a jack in the back plate of the speaker chamber. The electrics for switching speeds involve routing full 120 ac to the actual footswitch, or relays, so be careful.

Don't bother looking for the preamp pedals, they only apply to leslies with amps.
Old 26th March 2003
  #6
Here for the gear
 
Pink's Avatar
 

You could use a Rotosphere in a bind. I have used one in stereo going out to two different amps that were miked.

Sounded pretty Exile On Main Street if you ask me.

-P
Old 26th March 2003
  #7
Gear Nut
 
stuntmixer's Avatar
 

Twirlng, twirling ever toward freedom

As an admited "guitar or anything else through a Leslie" junkie, I have recently found a couple of things that have satisfied my need to spin (for now). I am painfully aware that there is NOTHING in the universe that truely replicates the sound of those horns throwing sound waves around and around and all of the beautiful modulating chaos that ensues, but check it out...

The first is the cheating way: the Hughes & Kettner Rotoshere.....I know, I know...but it is cool sounding. It can come kinda close if you really want it to and can be corrupted to create some interesting things of its own. Better still is my latest home science project. Two years ago I bought four old Hammond Spinnet Organs for next to nothing at a going out of business sale - two L100- seriers an M2 (the Booker T "Green Onions" model!) and a wretched later model called the "Phoenix". A couple of weeks ago I finally dragged the Phoenix out of the garage and spent a couple of hours poking around the back with alligator clips and a Little Smokey amp. I found two beautiful things. The first was an ancient beat box (16 push-button presets, tempo knob, volume knob and two separate outputs for low and high frequncy sounds. I will never use another drum machine again! Second (and the point of this ramble), is the rotating drum speaker that sits on the bottom of this beast. While I haven't yet dismantled the box that houses this unit, it appears to be a weirdly-shaped foam (?) cylander with two opposing openings spinning around a small stationary speaker!!

There are now three connections coming out of this thing, two outs from the beat box and an input to the drum that when fed by my '68 Princeton sounds like heaven on a good day. There are two speeds. On fast this things sounds like "Lucy in the Sky.." or "Badge" or any of those late '60s, early "70's" Brit psychedelic hippie guit sounds. I gets a little mushy when pushed into distortion by the amp, but sounds amazing clean or a little crunchy. Then on slow....oh my, oh my. Turn the amp on its ear and smile. That little speaker breaks up so nice and the sound moves around just so.................................slowly......
My question is how to mic it right in stereo. There are two ports, one on the side and one on the front. As the speker is stationary, mics on these spots are phased weird. So far the best thing I can come up with is to point the mics at each other as much as possible and flip one out of phase. Any ideas would be appreciated.

Sorry for the length of this, but I am exited by my new toy.

Charles (aka Stuntmixer -- "Don't try this at home kids"...)
Old 26th March 2003
  #8
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David R.'s Avatar
 

Leslie West was a good thing for guitar. hippie

Leslie cabinet is great if you are looking for 'that' sound. Make sure you have a roadie if you are going to gig with it.
Old 26th March 2003
  #9
Gear Nut
 
stuntmixer's Avatar
 

I toured for several years with a keynoard player who insisted on carrying one.....there used to be this place in Crested Butte call "The Rafters", guess why. .... The elevetor never seemed to work when we were there.
Next, I'm going to figure out how to extract the speaker and drum machine from the organ and still keep the power supply....hmmmm, later.
Old 27th March 2003
  #10
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robot gigante's Avatar
The Motion Sound Spindoctor is a decent modern equivalent- your amp drives it as well.

Sounds very nice with a AC-15 or Bassman.
Old 27th March 2003
  #11
Gear Nut
 
tee's Avatar
 

Thanks for replies everyone. sonic dogg I sent you a PM

Covert, you were saying:
Quote:
The pinout of the plug is easily found on the web, or you can install a jack in the back plate of the speaker chamber. The electrics for switching speeds involve routing full 120 ac to the actual footswitch, or relays, so be careful.
Could you be a bit more specific about how to go about this, I'm a bit on the electrically challenged side, but willing to give this a shot. This sound will be perfect for a some of the tunes in a project that will be starting here soon.

Peace

Tony
Old 27th March 2003
  #12
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covert's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by tee

Covert, you were saying:
Could you be a bit more specific about how to go about this, I'm a bit on the electrically challenged side, but willing to give this a shot. This sound will be perfect for a some of the tunes in a project that will be starting here soon.
The Leslie speed switching system is pretty strange. There are actually two motors, one for fast and one for slow. These are brought into play by a solenoid. One of the pins is ac common, one is high speed, and one is low speed. one of the speed pins will also engage the solenoid when powered. I think it's the high speed ne, but it's been quite a while. The speed switch therefore needs to select between sending ac to either the high or low speed pins. What this means is that the foot switch either has to handle full wall socket ac, or be made to trip a relay or other switching device that does. My recollection was that I made mine to just handle the ac. It's a simple circuit, but this can lead to shock hazard. If you need help get it.

Here's some info I got off the web way back when. There's a ton of info out there, if you search under Hammond and/or leslie.

Model 120

Cabinet: Wood
Rotors: One Bass rotor
Amplifiers: none
Speeds: Fast-Slow
Speakers: One 12"
Belts:
Motor-fast:
Motor-slow:
Notes: An amplifierless Leslie, akin to the 110.
Hookup: Speaker on pins 1 & 6, 3 & 4 AC input, 2 & 5 relay (similar to
147 hookup)
Old 30th March 2003
  #13
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Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 

I own and use a 120 on guitar...usually through an old ampeg head


Me too! Velly velly nice. 120 gets a fantastic low end out of the guitar, man does it love the low string.

one of several leslies about the place.
Old 31st March 2003
  #14
Gear Nut
 
tee's Avatar
 

Hey Ted,
How do you deal with the 6 pin Leslie connector in getting your guitar sound to the 120? I'm not having alot of luck, so far, in getting this happening.

Thanks a bunch
Old 31st March 2003
  #15
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Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 

When I got my 120's they were already all set up for guitar.

Getting the Leslie 6 pin thing to work with external amps or 1/4" unbalanced sources (or XLR sources for that matter) is a job for an organ tech, one of the old guys left over from the era.

The way mine is set up, there is no amp in the Leslie, just the parts needed for switching. A footswitch controls that. Then there is a 1/4" speaker in that goes to the speaker. It's a little simpler than a 122 because there is no upper rotor or crossover to worry about, so it should be most straightforward to get a signal to the speaker.

The switching bit is more complicated, beyond my understanding. I've been lucky enough to find organ techs that can help me trick things out as needed.


I remember first encountering a Leslie in a friend's basement. The Leslie belonged to a keyboard player, and try as I might I could not figure out how to plug a guitar into it!

Practically every leslie set-up in the world is not quite "out of the box", as Hammond made no effort to accomodate all the people who wanted to hook up leslies to their organs. You had to buy a Hammond tone cabinet to get the Hammond new, and then take it down the street (the Hammond, not the tone cabinet- those mostly became "conversation pieces") to be modified to work with the Leslie.

There's no one standard way that it's done, it gets improvisational.
Old 31st March 2003
  #16
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tee's Avatar
 

Thanks for the report Ted .......... looks like it's time to make some calls.

Peace
Old 31st March 2003
  #17
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covert's Avatar
 

Quote:

Getting the Leslie 6 pin thing to work with external amps or 1/4" unbalanced sources (or XLR sources for that matter) is a job for an organ tech, one of the old guys left over from the era.
Bullshit! It's very basic wiring, when dealing with non powered leslies. By non powered, I mean those without amps. Even when you get into the ones with amps, there are two basic configurations. One has a balance line input, the other is unbalanced. The speed switching is pretty much the same in all of them.

Quote:

The way mine is set up, there is no amp in the Leslie, just the parts needed for switching.
That's the way 120 models were made.

Quote:

A footswitch controls that.
Which contains mainly a SPDT switch. If there's a second switch for stop that's SPST.

Quote:

Then there is a 1/4" speaker in that goes to the speaker. It's a little simpler than a 122 because there is no upper rotor or crossover to worry about, so it should be most straightforward to get a signal to the speaker.
Just lie wiring any other speaker cabinet.

Quote:

The switching bit is more complicated, beyond my understanding. I've been lucky enough to find organ techs that can help me trick things out as needed.
This is far from rocket science.



Quote:

I remember first encountering a Leslie in a friend's basement. The Leslie belonged to a keyboard player, and try as I might I could not figure out how to plug a guitar into it!
It does require a bit of knowledge

Quote:

Practically every leslie set-up in the world is not quite "out of the box", as Hammond made no effort to accomodate all the people who wanted to hook up leslies to their organs. You had to buy a Hammond tone cabinet to get the Hammond new, and then take it down the street (the Hammond, not the tone cabinet- those mostly became "conversation pieces") to be modified to work with the Leslie.
As noted above, there were two standard Leslie interfaces, both of which came stock on some hammond models.

Quote:

There's no one standard way that it's done, it gets improvisational.
Nope, there are two, and then certain variations within those brackets.

I tried to attach a small schematic, but can't figure out how to do that.
Old 31st March 2003
  #18
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
In the amazing world of "cheating"... I've found that the Kurzweil KSP-8 does one of the best "Leslie in a box" things I've ever heard... if you really want to get into it... use two of them... one fast, one slow and either record them into a DAW and 'crossfade' them... or return them to a desk and go between returns in the mix.
Old 31st March 2003
  #19
Gear Nut
 
plexi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
In the amazing world of "cheating"... I've found that the Kurzweil KSP-8 does one of the best "Leslie in a box" things I've ever heard... if you really want to get into it... use two of them... one fast, one slow and either record them into a DAW and 'crossfade' them... or return them to a desk and go between returns in the mix.

Or use the speed parameter to change between slow or fast settings, it accelerates and deaccelerates like a real leslie....

Amund
Old 31st March 2003
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 

I'm glad to hear things are more straightforward than they seem to me.

Having worked with a dozen or so leslies with at least half a dozen switching and wiring schemes, none of which are compatible with the other, it seemed more complicated than that to me. I will readily admit that something needn't be rocket science to be beyond my ken. Just not the technical type, but I love these things so I muck about in their anyway, usually as I've mentioned with the help of one or another old timer who's seen it all.

Right here at the house I have 4 122's (that's how they act now anyway) all of which were set up different ways. I've since had them all redone to be the same, and to be compatible with everything a stock 122 would be, as well as ready to take 1/4" speaker outs from any amp.

Then there are the two 120's, came as a pair and set up the same, but different from the 122's, and then the Leslie 16, totally different situation altogether.

Perhaps it is getting used gear that has been tweaked away from stock over the years that causes my confusion, but none of the techs I've worked with has ever presented the situation as simple, nor have they ever been able to tell me what the situation was without taking a good look at the current state of each Leslie's workings.
Old 1st April 2003
  #21
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covert's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
I'm glad to hear things are more straightforward than they seem to me.

Having worked with a dozen or so leslies with at least half a dozen switching and wiring schemes, none of which are compatible with the other, it seemed more complicated than that to me. I will readily admit that something needn't be rocket science to be beyond my ken. Just not the technical type, but I love these things so I muck about in their anyway, usually as I've mentioned with the help of one or another old timer who's seen it all.

Right here at the house I have 4 122's (that's how they act now anyway) all of which were set up different ways. I've since had them all redone to be the same, and to be compatible with everything a stock 122 would be, as well as ready to take 1/4" speaker outs from any amp.

Then there are the two 120's, came as a pair and set up the same, but different from the 122's, and then the Leslie 16, totally different situation altogether.

Perhaps it is getting used gear that has been tweaked away from stock over the years that causes my confusion, but none of the techs I've worked with has ever presented the situation as simple, nor have they ever been able to tell me what the situation was without taking a good look at the current state of each Leslie's workings.
Certainly a lot of LEslies have been worked over to make them cioonnect to any number of strange things. The 16 is an unusual unit, not set up for the standard Hammond connections.

Model 16

Cabinet: Vinyl covered, grille cloth
Dimensions: 29" x 21" x 14"
Rotors: Single
Amplifiers: None
Speeds: Fast-Slow
Speakers: I
Belts: B
Motor-fast: 1
Motor-slow: 3
Notes: Special connector/for Combo Guitar amps
Hookup: Non-Standard

My recollection is that the two basic setups were the 122 and the 147, with the primary differences being that one was originally equipped for a balanced line in, and the other for unbalanced. People swapped amps around so any one you find may be set up theother way. As I've said, there is plenty of info out there.

http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq...d-faq_toc.html

http://theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq...n-leslies.html

http://www.dairiki.org/HammondWiki
Old 1st April 2003
  #22
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Ted Nightshade's Avatar
 

Thanks, looks like you have some really good info and links.

2 of my "122's" used to be something like 147's, anyhow they are the short cabs with both rotors. My tech has reverted to just calling them "short" and "tall", as they are likely to be set up for organs using both the unbalanced and balanced approaches.

Is it the Fender Vibrolux that the Leslie 16 so closely resembles?
Old 2nd April 2003
  #23
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covert's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ted Nightshade
Thanks, looks like you have some really good info and links.

2 of my "122's" used to be something like 147's, anyhow they are the short cabs with both rotors. My tech has reverted to just calling them "short" and "tall", as they are likely to be set up for organs using both the unbalanced and balanced approaches.

Is it the Fender Vibrolux that the Leslie 16 so closely resembles?
Nope, the Vibrolux was a combo amp. I don't offhand recall what the name of the Fender leslie style gizmo was.
Old 3rd April 2003
  #24
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sonic dogg's Avatar
That cabinet would be the Fender Vibrotone...Stevie Ray used one in his set-up.....
Old 3rd April 2003
  #25
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chap's Avatar
 

2 ways for me

I use a Vibratone which was made by Leslie and licensed by Fender. Sounds great. Puts the junk in the trunk.

Another way (I'll plead guilty to an endorsement)
is with the Groove Tubes SFX.
A combo amp sits on top of the SFX cabinet (2 12' speakers facing each other out of phase) and a leslie fx pedal (I use a TC with a speed switch )
The pedal is routed to the SFX encoder/decoder where old fashioned m/s is simulated.
The combo amp carries the dry signal and the SFX cabinet throws a 300 degree radius. Closest thing I've heard (including moving speakers) to a real Leslie. Easier to carry and a pain in the ass to wire up.
Cheers,
Chap

also works great for organ patches
Old 3rd April 2003
  #26
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Re: 2 ways for me

BTW, if you have a B3 sitting around to go with the Leslie, you can open up the back and look for an RCA input on the B3's preamp. Plug your line level signal of choice in there and it goes through the B's electronics and into the Leslie. For awhile I had the whole thing miced and wired up as an effects send/return from my console. Sometimes it's nice to just have a certain amount of the signal effected.

-R
Old 8th March 2013
  #27
Here for the gear
 

Leslie wiring

I am thinking to take and using a DPDT footswitch, and hook the Black and White AC wires to the center lugs, the green to the case housing. Then attach the motor wires to the outer 2 lugs. To find the 2 wires that go together use an ohm meter to see continuity. The Red & Black wires are to the speaker that is in the center of round cylinder. These 2 will hook to another SPST footswitch and 1/4 inch jacks as a place to plug in external speaker wire to. What I don't know is, should all your sound come thru the rotating speaker, or can you just run the external speaker to the leslie and then use it like a Rotovibe. I am either thinking of running this with the Mesa Boogie LSS or 1 of 2 Princeton amps.

Does this make any sense?

VR, Ron
Old 12th March 2013
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfrakes View Post
I am thinking to take and using a DPDT footswitch, and hook the Black and White AC wires to the center lugs, the green to the case housing. Then attach the motor wires to the outer 2 lugs. To find the 2 wires that go together use an ohm meter to see continuity. The Red & Black wires are to the speaker that is in the center of round cylinder. These 2 will hook to another SPST footswitch and 1/4 inch jacks as a place to plug in external speaker wire to. What I don't know is, should all your sound come thru the rotating speaker, or can you just run the external speaker to the leslie and then use it like a Rotovibe. I am either thinking of running this with the Mesa Boogie LSS or 1 of 2 Princeton amps.

I've used 10's, 12's and even have a 15" in my Fender Vibratone.

The brighter the speaker, the better, and the more efficient the better. I like Jensen Mods in these. Whatever speaker you use will be somewhat muted by the baffle.

I've used units with foam rotors and some with wooden rotors. They all work good.

A dedicated amp for the Leslie is a good idea. I do run them full range. I tried the hookup the Fender Vibratone uses. It has a crossover where the lows and highs remain from the main guitar amp speaker and just the mids are produced by the Vibratone. Too subtle for me.

A GREAT way to record guitar is to use a guitar amp, and the leslie either in the ext speaker jack on the guitar amp, or with a separate amp.

Mic the speaker in the guitar amp, and mic the Leslie, and then pan the mics. It sounds just huge! My last church was wired in stereo with 20 some four 4.5" speaker cabinets all around the church. A Leslie into the system just moved around the room mightily.

Or mic the Leslie with a mic on each side, panned, and mic your guitar amp and put it in the center.

I last built a cabinet with the same baffling as a Vibratone. I build a footswitch that switches a 12V relay in the cabinet (actually two, powered by a 12VDC adaptor). One relay switches speed motors and the other turns the rotor off. I use Fender type footswitch boxes, and put LED's in the footswitch, as well as a 1/4" jack wired to the speed switch, to allow daisy chaining other Leslies so I can use one footswitch to control the speed of the others.

I usually have my homebuilt under my bf Princeton Reverb, either plugged into the ext speaker jack, or I use a dedicated amp for the Leslie. I built a tweed Deluxe circuit into an old, compact tube PA head, and it works great for the Leslie. There is no inherent mid cut in the Deluxe head, and the single tone control is effective.

I have a Jensen C12K in that DIY Leslie. I may change it to a Mod, but the C12K is nice.

One speaker that might be really good for a Leslie is the reissue C12N. It normally has a terrible spike at 2k that is fine with clean tones, but is spiky, piezo like with distortion. This is due to the hard paper dome dustcap. (To improve this speaker, carefully cut out the hard dustcap and replace with a felt one...GREAT speaker after the mod.)

But that spiky high bright might be just the ticket for a Leslie. In my Vibratone, I mounted a coaxial tweeter (a small piezo no longer available that is only 1/2" thick) and it is not too bright with guitar, even distorted.

With my DIY, I copied the openings in the cabinet as are in a Vibratone, including in the front panel. I didn't do the diagonal opening as that serves a different purpose and is not needed. But I have the bottom opening, the side and top openings. I also wanted more low end, and since the back of the cabinet is sealed, I put a port in the baffle, just below the rotor. I like the sound with that...increased low end from the port but the rest of the sound from the rotor. Fills it out some.
Inside the Fender Vibratone

(This message was last edited by Steve Dallman at 08:02 PM, Mar 8th, 2013)

I cut this out of the FDP page: FDP - Forum
VR, Ron
Old 15th March 2013
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfrakes View Post
I am thinking to take and using a DPDT footswitch, and hook the Black and White AC wires to the center lugs, the green to the case housing. Then attach the motor wires to the outer 2 lugs. To find the 2 wires that go together use an ohm meter to see continuity. The Red & Black wires are to the speaker that is in the center of round cylinder. These 2 will hook to another SPST footswitch and 1/4 inch jacks as a place to plug in external speaker wire to. What I don't know is, should all your sound come thru the rotating speaker, or can you just run the external speaker to the leslie and then use it like a Rotovibe. I am either thinking of running this with the Mesa Boogie LSS or 1 of 2 Princeton amps.

Does this make any sense?

VR, Ron
Ok, I have been re-educated on not hooking AC in a foot pedal for future misconnection with the AC into the Guitar circuit. So disregard.
Old 15th March 2013
  #30
Here for the gear
 

This comes from Hammond101 on the FDP:

rfrakes,

If your leslie unit has two motors attached to one another, the motor closest to the drive pulley needs to be running for fast (tremolo) and the motor at the end of the stack runs for slow speed (choral). Both motors do not run at the same time in a two motor stack.

The slow motor shaft drives a pully with o-ring on the bottom of the fast motor for the slow speed. Powering up the slow motor moves the shaft into an engagement mode to contact the o-ringed large pulley.

Both motors off would really nt be needed as you can use your regular amp for that. Note that you really don't need to cut off the main amp to get the Leslie effect. It will interact with the sound waves coming from your main amp an in many cases the effect will be greater than Leslie only. They are very cool units.

In my home Hammond rig I have my tone cabinet on all the time and the Leslie running at Chorale speed all the time unless it is sped up to trem for effect.

In a guitar set up I let the Leslie run the same way but switch the signal off for stop so I am on the main amp only using an A-B/A+B switch. All I have is a single on/off switch for fast slow. I am however using a fast motor only and have an adaptor circuit in the A/C line to the motor that control frequency to provide slow speed. (Carabiean Controls)

Yes, relays are best for switching.

You will find things will work best with a seperate power amp for the Leslie giving you better control over it's volume. The Leslie will not have the output of your main amp.

Leslie cab are best mic'd in stereo with two mics 90 from each other and the channels panned to full left and right. To hear one pass across center mic'd this way is really an amazing sound. One mic mono will work but the mic should be placed off axis to better hear the rotating baffle coming towards it.

Many guitarists have found that two way speakers (co-axial) in a single rotor Leslie improve tone with the increased high end.



I'll add to the above by saying if you are micing a single rotor Leslie the above would be the way to do it. With a two rotor "real Leslie" do the above for the upper rotor then a single mic on the lower rotor is usually good enough.
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