The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
A above middle C @ 432 hz instead of 440 for a warmer, transparant sound? Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 25th August 2017
  #181
Lives for gear
 
matyas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
F***in' smartypants.
Nah, just a guy with a musicology degree who lived in Austria for awhile.
Old 25th August 2017
  #182
Lives for gear
 
O.F.F.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
In the end, really, what did that get him? A Christmas song - so he's in that exclusive club with Frosty, Rudolph and chestnuts, et al...
For the next few hundred years the King of Bohemia together with 6 other electors (3 archbishops and 3 other nobles) got to decide who would become Emperor so it made him one of the 8 most powerful people in an area that stretched from Denmark to Sicily.

As I said not a bad deal at the time.
Old 25th August 2017
  #183
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
...sorry, couldn't resist.
Jammin' with the Justified Ancients of Mummu!


Looks like Myron's licensee account with Harry Fox probably doesn't get a lot of use...
Old 25th August 2017
  #184
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
I forget. Is this the alien thread or the frequency thread?
"Yes."
Old 26th August 2017
  #185
Was just wondering if the Maestro in an opera house / concert hall etc. may have chosen the tuning frequency in conjunction with the halls natural acoustic.

This could be one explanation of why some used 4xx hz while others used another beside the fact that they did not know HZ from CPS or any other measure that is easy for us to do but was not a known parameter to those poor humans that had nothing but ears and brains to tune up the orchestra.

There was no objective way, in the day, to assess the tuning of the orchestra from day to day and assure the frequencies remained constant other than a randomly tuned by ear tuning fork.
Old 26th August 2017
  #186
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by philsaudio View Post
There was no objective way, in the day, to assess the tuning of the orchestra from day to day and assure the frequencies remained constant other than a randomly tuned by ear tuning fork.
You mean other than randomly tuned by the intonation of the oboe player.
Old 26th August 2017
  #187
Quote:
Originally Posted by philsaudio View Post
Was just wondering if the Maestro in an opera house / concert hall etc. may have chosen the tuning frequency in conjunction with the halls natural acoustic.

This could be one explanation of why some used 4xx hz while others used another beside the fact that they did not know HZ from CPS or any other measure that is easy for us to do but was not a known parameter to those poor humans that had nothing but ears and brains to tune up the orchestra.

There was no objective way, in the day, to assess the tuning of the orchestra from day to day and assure the frequencies remained constant other than a randomly tuned by ear tuning fork.
I have heard that notion before, you may be on to something.

It's probably been mentioned before, but if you want to see a real kluster-fudge, check out gamelan tuning...
Old 26th August 2017
  #188
Lives for gear
 
matyas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
You mean other than randomly tuned by the intonation of the oboe player.
Reasonably accurate tuning forks existed in the nineteenth century. Oboe players used them.
Old 26th August 2017
  #189
Lives for gear
 
12tone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matyas View Post
Reasonably accurate tuning forks existed in the nineteenth century. Oboe players used them.
Not questioning whether oboe players used pitch forks, or electronic tuners as they do now - but still, the whole shebang nevertheless is tuning to him/her.

Adding stress possibly, beyond occupational hazards like aneurysms and cerebral hemorrhages.

Oboist, 56, dies after suffering brain hemorrhage onstage during symphony performance before packed audience
Oboist William Bennett has dies after he suffered a stroke in middle of San Fran symphony performance | Daily Mail Online
Old 26th August 2017
  #190
Lives for gear
 
matyas's Avatar
 

I actually was an oboe player in a previous life. Got bored of making reeds and practicing etudes. Changing my focus to composition and recording was a wise decision in many ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12tone View Post
Not questioning whether oboe players used pitch forks, or electronic tuners as they do now - but still, the whole shebang nevertheless is tuning to him/her.

Adding stress possibly, beyond occupational hazards like aneurysms and cerebral hemorrhages.

Oboist, 56, dies after suffering brain hemorrhage onstage during symphony performance before packed audience
Oboist William Bennett has dies after he suffered a stroke in middle of San Fran symphony performance | Daily Mail Online
Old 26th August 2017
  #191
Lives for gear
 
matyas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
It's probably been mentioned before, but if you want to see a real kluster-fudge, check out gamelan tuning...
There's nothing cluster-fudgish about gamelan tuning. It just has nothing to do with 12-tone equal temperament. I once got to watch some Indonesian masters tune a gamelan. They were at least as precise and painstaking as any piano tuner.
Old 26th August 2017
  #192
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
It's probably been mentioned before, but if you want to see a real kluster-fudge, check out gamelan tuning...
Pelog or Slendro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by matyas View Post
There's nothing cluster-fudgish about gamelan tuning. It just has nothing to do with 12-tone equal temperament. I once got to watch some Indonesian masters tune a gamelan. They were at least as precise and painstaking as any piano tuner.
Yup.
Old 26th August 2017
  #193
Quote:
Originally Posted by matyas View Post
There's nothing cluster-fudgish about gamelan tuning. It just has nothing to do with 12-tone equal temperament. I once got to watch some Indonesian masters tune a gamelan. They were at least as precise and painstaking as any piano tuner.
Perhaps a poor choice of words (and really hard to dictate into a tablet as I did this a.m. lying in bed).

I was really referring to the fact that there is no tuning standard, and that tunings/temperaments vary by region and even within large villages that support more than one gamelan ensemble.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nspaas View Post
Pelog or Slendro?
Yes.

Quote:
From one region of Indonesia to another the slendro scale often varies widely. The amount of variation also varies from region to region. For example, slendro in Central Java varies much less from gamelan to gamelan than it does in Bali, where ensembles from the same village may be tuned very differently. The five pitches of the Javanese version are roughly equally spaced within the octave.

As in pelog, although the intervals vary from one gamelan to the next, the intervals between notes in a scale are very close to identical for different instruments within the same gamelan. It is common in Balinese gamelan that instruments are played in pairs which are tuned slightly apart so as to produce interference beating which are ideally at a consistent speed for all pairs of notes in all registers. It is thought that this contributes to the very "busy" and "shimmering" sound of gamelan ensembles. In the religious ceremonies that contain gamelan, these interference beats are meant to give the listener a feeling of a god's presence or a stepping stone to a meditative state.

For the instruments that do not need fixed pitches (such as suling and rebab) and the voice, other pitches are sometimes inserted into the scale. The Sundanese musicologist/teacher Raden Machjar Angga Koesoemadinata identified 17 vocal pitches used in slendro.[4] These microtonal adjustments bear some similarity to Indian śruti.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slendro


I was lucky enough to play on and off informally in the 1980s with a synth guy who later became an academic ethnomusicologist who focused much of his efforts on gamelan, traveling and field recording fairly extensively. But it didn't really rub off on me, I'm afraid.
Old 26th August 2017
  #194
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by philsaudio View Post
Was just wondering if the Maestro in an opera house / concert hall etc. may have chosen the tuning frequency in conjunction with the halls natural acoustic.
it varied from town to town, but I doubt much of it was because of anyone's conscious decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Until the 19th century, there was no coordinated effort to standardize musical pitch, and the levels across Europe varied widely. Pitches did not just vary from place to place, or over time—pitch levels could vary even within the same city. The pitch used for an English cathedral organ in the 17th century, for example, could be as much as five semitones lower than that used for a domestic keyboard instrument in the same city.

a major constraining factor was often the organ of the local cathedral. Regardless of what the acoustics say, you are stuck with the organ.

Quote:
Even within one church, the pitch used could vary over time because of the way organs were tuned. Generally, the end of an organ pipe would be hammered inwards to a cone, or flared outwards, to raise or lower the pitch. When the pipe ends became frayed by this constant process they were all trimmed down, thus raising the overall pitch of the organ.
the Wikipedia article is fascinating, not in the least because it contradicts nearly every single part of the New Age story of "good" and "evil" reference pitches. There was not only no "pitch of the Ancients" but the disagreement in standards from place to place and time to time was so great it overlapped by several KEYS.
Quote:
This could be one explanation of why some used 4xx hz while others used another beside the fact that they did not know HZ from CPS or any other measure that is easy for us to do but was not a known parameter to those poor humans that had nothing but ears and brains to tune up the orchestra.
Yes, plus, I think that if it had been truly "sacred" to them, you would think they would make a "golden" tuning fork and carefully bring it from town to town allowing everyone to fine tune their local tuning forks. But the tuning fork itself was not even invented until the early 1700's - kind of late in the game.


Quote:
The frequencies quoted here are based on modern measurements and would not have been precisely known to musicians of the day. Although Mersenne had made a rough determination of sound frequencies as early as the 17th century, such measurements did not become scientifically accurate until the 19th century, beginning with the work of German physicist Johann Scheibler in the 1830s. The term formerly used for the unit of pitch, cycle per second (CPS) was renamed the hertz (Hz) in the 20th century in honor of Heinrich Rudolf Hertz.
The Wikipedia article is very interesting. It goes into the issue of "pitch inflation" whereby instrumentalists kept sneaking up their pitch to have a brighter sound. It got so bad, people's strings were snapping, and the poor singers were being left in the dust. They had to step in and reform the process because it was getting out of control.

And of course by "they", I mean the Illuminati.
Old 27th August 2017
  #195
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
it varied from town to town, but I doubt much of it was because of anyone's conscious decision.

a major constraining factor was often the organ of the local cathedral. Regardless of what the acoustics say, you are stuck with the organ.

There was not only no "pitch of the Ancients" but the disagreement in standards from place to place and time to time was so great it overlapped by several KEYS.

Yes, plus, I think that if it had been truly "sacred" to them, you would think they would make a "golden" tuning fork and carefully bring it from town to town allowing everyone to fine tune their local tuning forks. But the tuning fork itself was not even invented until the early 1700's - kind of late in the game.
These are the first things that always come to mind when such conversation appears. All art has a funny way of assimilating new scientific tech and applying it to aesthetics. Some things are 100% valid and obvious, while others are anal retentive minutiae. I have no idea where in the spectrum this issue falls, except to to note that a minuscule change can alter temper, and that's a big factor.

Here's an interesting history of pitch culled from https://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html. Yeah, it's been all over the road.

1640 Vienna Franciscan Organ A457.6
1663 Bernards Schmidt's Orgain in Duham, England A474
1699 Paris Opera A404
1711 John Shore's tuning fork, a pitch of A423.5 He invented the tuning fork, one of which still exists today.
1780 Stines, for Mozart, A421
1780 Organ builder Schulz A421.3
1714 Strasbourg Cathedral organ A391
1722 Dresden's chief Roman Catholic church organ A415
1759 Trinity College Cambridge organ A309
1762 Stringed instruments at Hamburg A405
1772 Gottfried Silbermann built the organ in the main Roman Catholic church in Dresden, and it had a pitch of A 415 at the time.
1780 Organ builder Schulz A421.3
1780 Stein's tuning fork A422.6
1751 Handel's own fork A422.5
1800 Broadwood's C fork, 505.7, which is about half a semitone lower than that of today
1811 Paris Grand Opera A 427
1812 Paris Conservatoire A440, as modern pitch
1813 George Smart adopted for the Philharmonic Society the pitch of A423.3.
1820 Westminster Abbey organ and possibly Paris Comic Opera used a pitch of A422.5.
1823 In Veienna pitch was A437 and it 1834 A 440
1828 Philharmonic Society A 440
1834 Vienna Opera A 436.5
1835 Wolfels piano maker A443
1836 Pleyel's Pianos A446
1846 Philharmonic pitch was A452.5 (very high) which lasted till 1854
1846 Mr Hipkins piano tuner (Meantone) A433.5 (Equal) A436.0
1849 Broadwood's medium pitch was A445.9 which lasted till 1854
1858 New Philharmonic pitch C522
1859 The French government set up a commission for a standard pitch. which was A435 the fork temperature was15 degrees centigrade.
1860 Cramer's piano makers of London A448.4
1862 Dresden Opera A 440
1871 Covent Garden Opera House A 440
1877 Collard's piano maker standard pitch was A 449.9
1877 St. Paul Cathedral organ A446.6
1877 Chappell Pianos A455.9
1877 Mr Hipkins piano tuner A448.8
1878 Her Majesty's Organ A436.1
1878 Vienna Opera A447
1879 Covent Garden Opera A450
1879 Erard's factory fork 455.3
1879 Steinway of England A 454.
1879 British Army regulation pitch for woodwinds A451.9
1880 Brinsmead, Broadwood, and Erard apparently used a pitch of A455.3
1880 Steinway may have been using a pitch of A436. According to Steinway of New York, 1880 is right around the time they switched from three piece rims to the continuous rim that is used today. So it is unlikely the pitch was any higher before 1880, yet Steinway of London had a fork A454.7.
1885 In Vienna a pitch of A435.4 was adopted at a temperature of 59 degrees Fahrenheit for A.
1885 At an international exhibition of inventions and music in London a pitch of A452 was adopted.
1896 Philharmonic pitch A439, giving C522
1925 On the 11th of June the American music industry adopted A440.
1936 American Standards Association adopted A440. yet; New York Philharmonic and the Boston Symphony Orchestra, use 442 Hz
1939 At an international conference A440 was adopted.
Old 27th August 2017
  #196
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennybro View Post
Here's an interesting history of pitch culled from https://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html. Yeah, it's been all over the road.

1640 Vienna Franciscan Organ A457.6
1663 Bernards Schmidt's Orgain in Duham, England A474
1699 Paris Opera A404
1711 John Shore's tuning fork, a pitch of A423.5 He invented the tuning fork, one of which still exists today....(big snip) .......1936 American Standards Association adopted A440. yet; New York Philharmonic and the Boston Symphony Orchestra, use 442 Hz
1939 At an international conference A440 was adopted.
What an amazing list. It's all over the place, but one thing that is fascinating to me that you would think 432 would be in there somewhere - if only just by random chance. But it's not, at all.

Coincidence?

But then you have ask yourself, how could the evil powers be so ruthlessly efficient at preventing anyone from discovering and using 432 as the concert "A" tuning reference for hundreds of years - AND NOW SUDDENLY - all the hippies know about it and there are YouTubes and everything?

Are we supposed to believe they suddenly started really sucking at being the puppet masters who control the whole world and just allowed the secret pitch to accidentally "slip out"? How do we know that by "switching to 432", we aren't actually playing right into their hands?

And of course by "they", I mean the Illuminati.
Old 27th August 2017
  #197
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

And of course by "they", I mean the Illuminati.
You think it's the Illuminati. That's how clever the Reptilians are!
Old 27th August 2017
  #198
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Are we supposed to believe they suddenly started really sucking at being the puppet masters who control the whole world and just allowed the secret pitch to accidentally "slip out"? How do we know that by "switching to 432", we aren't actually playing right into their hands?
Those bastards! The apocalypse is at hand.
Old 27th August 2017
  #199
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
What an amazing list. It's all over the place, but one thing that is fascinating to me that you would think 432 would be in there somewhere - if only just by random chance. But it's not, at all.

Coincidence?

But then you have ask yourself, how could the evil powers be so ruthlessly efficient at preventing anyone from discovering and using 432 as the concert "A" tuning reference for hundreds of years - AND NOW SUDDENLY - all the hippies know about it and there are YouTubes and everything?

Are we supposed to believe they suddenly started really sucking at being the puppet masters who control the whole world and just allowed the secret pitch to accidentally "slip out"? How do we know that by "switching to 432", we aren't actually playing right into their hands?

And of course by "they", I mean the Illuminati.
[emphasis added]

Well, I normally tread very carefully when correcting joeq -- but I feel he's missed something obvious here!

And the answer, of course, is that this knowledge was the province of the very few and closely guarded... but now that we have the Internet and Youtube, it's all but impossible to keep Secret Knowledge out of the hands of the Unwashed and Unready. More is the tragedy, of course, since this secret knowledge in the hands of the uninitiated is incredibly powerful -- and incredibly dangerous.

Old 27th August 2017
  #200
Lives for gear
 
soundebler's Avatar
But there is obvious something happening in sound when going from 440 to 432 think mainly on the field of the major third and related combinations . Lets say you have a C and an E they have harmonic vibration almost like a sample playing certain sample rate . When lowering the tuning the harmonic vibration get slower and up it go faster . Using intervals give more information about relation between notes it do not say anything about warmer or more transparent sound , that seem to be more personal thing .And some instruments are warmer than others and others more transparent by design , also those pre 1900 piano is very old design not to be compared with newer
Old 27th August 2017
  #201
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundebler View Post
But there is obvious something happening in sound when going from 440 to 432 think mainly on the field of the major third and related combinations . ...When lowering the tuning the harmonic vibration get slower and up it go faster .
But if you lower the tuning, everything gets slower together. So a third is still a third and so on.

Quote:
Using intervals give more information about relation between notes it do not say anything about warmer or more transparent sound ,
Unless you use a different temperament, the relationship between the notes remains the same regardless of your starting pitch. That's the second reason why the idea of a "cosmic" Pitch Reference is such BS.

Quote:
that seem to be more personal thing
indeed if you like it a little lower, go ahead and tune flat. But if you like it a bit more low, you can transpose down a half step. If you like it a lot lower go down a whole step.... etc There is a danger, however in tuning down less than a full half step.

That is the danger that the vibraphonist in your band may murder you in your sleep.
Old 27th August 2017
  #202
Lives for gear
 
matyas's Avatar
 

Very well said. If it's warm thirds you're after, use meantone temperament. You will not be able to use conventionally fretted instruments, however.

The only reason for using pitch levels other than 440 is to accommodate historic instruments that were designed to operate at different pitch levels. For example, I tune my clavichord to A=415, because it's a reproduction of an early eighteenth-century instrument and it can't really handle the tension on the strings when tuned to A=440. I also tune it to something close to Werckmeister.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
But if you lower the tuning, everything gets slower together. So a third is still a third and so on.


Unless you use a different temperament, the relationship between the notes remains the same regardless of your starting pitch. That's the second reason why the idea of a "cosmic" Pitch Reference is such BS.


indeed if you like it a little lower, go ahead and tune flat. But if you like it a bit more low, you can transpose down a half step. If you like it a lot lower go down a whole step.... etc There is a danger, however in tuning down less than a full half step.

That is the danger that the vibraphonist in your band may murder you in your sleep.
Old 27th August 2017
  #203
Lives for gear
 
Old Goat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
That is the danger that the vibraphonist in your band may murder you in your sleep.
Or, if you are that persnicketty, the guitar player might murder you in your awake. (we tend to be a bit more direct than vibrators)
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+  Submit Thread to Reddit Reddit 
 
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
juicylime / So much gear, so little time!
38
Lexicondonn / Mastering forum
7
nomraun / So much gear, so little time!
9

Forum Jump