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Hihat isolation material Dynamic Microphones
Old 17th October 2008
  #1
Gear Nut
 

Hihat isolation material

Hi!
I want to build a little device to isolate the snaredrum from the hihat.
And I remember I saw bruce swedien had made something like that but i could`nt find the post.
So my question is:
What material should I use?
You know, it`s important that the sound dont go right through it, but also that it does not reflect sounds so it ends up making the snare sound artificial.
My dream is to make the ultimate isolation device, so then of course I am looking for the ultimate isolation materialheh

If something is unclear, please ask. And if you know some good links, dont hesitate to post them.

Thank you so much!

Joe
Old 17th October 2008
  #2
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Matti's Avatar
hi-hat baffle

I have had succes with improvised "tape mic pouches to a mic stand boom
and put between the sn mic & hh" arragement

Matti
Old 17th October 2008
  #3
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seaneldon's Avatar
 

My favorite way to minimize the hihat in the snare track is with a bidirectional (figure-of-eight) microphone. Put the hihat, kick drum, and first rack tom in the null of the mic and then hit record and get on with your life. No foam or anything like that in the way of the drummer, no horrible wash in your snare track. Whaddya got for multi-pattern condensers?
Old 17th October 2008
  #4
Gear Nut
 
tyro's Avatar
 

I've done this with a small K&M stand - the tiny foldable one - and put a couple of thick Logic manuals on it and gaffed them a bit to stay put. Placed as in Mr Swedien's photo in the linked thread. Worked great! If the reflection off the manuals bothers you, maybe use a couple of small pieces of some foam on top of whatever barrier used?

Mr Swedien's solution might be a bit more elegant and allow for more placement options of baffle/hihat/snare, but my "baffle" got the job done properly enough for me. And it's easier... so just try it!

EDIT: Sean Eldon's thing with the fig-8 mic on snare is a good way too, might look slightly more professional... heh
Old 17th October 2008
  #5
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Matti's Avatar
I hope there where more more fig 8 sd condencer mics especially
cheaper than say a Schoepps

Matti
Old 17th October 2008
  #6
Han
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With a good drummer and a good snare mic you won't need any baffle.
Old 18th October 2008
  #7
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allencollins's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Han View Post
With a good drummer and a good snare mic you won't need any baffle.
maybe if you record garage rock.

It depends on the project. Sometimes gating is enough
sometimes it isn't. Sometimes you have to compensate
and use baffle.

Sometimes if you get a band that sounds like Nirvana
or kinda sloppy you are right. A baffle is not required.
A noisy aggressive drum sound is sometimes desirable
Old 18th October 2008
  #8
Lives for gear
 

I'm not telling.
Old 18th October 2008
  #9
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Han View Post
With a good drummer and a good snare mic you won't need any baffle.
Now that is just annoying..
This has nothing to do with my question.

I want to see how much I can seperate the hihat and snare.
Simply because I always want to control the levels between the drums as much as I can.
Either if I have a good drummer or a bad one.
And I want to do proper work before. Not fix it afterwards.

I have a dream that if someone asks a question at gearslutz they will get it answered. Without a bunch of smartasses who disagree with what the question is..

But back to my question.
I see mr swedien have used plywood, Mu-Metal and compressed wood.
To the acustic experts out there, is this the best solution?
Because I wanna bend it too. Just to make the question a little harder for you guys
And that could be a little hard with those materials.
You see, I have an idea for a pretty cool design
But I am not good with acustic materials(as you notice)

Joe
Old 18th October 2008
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Anyone tried these?
Welcome to sE Electronics

Looks like it might be a bit clunky for placement depending on how tight the drumkit setup is though.
---
c
Old 18th October 2008
  #11
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Beardhead's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seaneldon View Post
My favorite way to minimize the hihat in the snare track is with a bidirectional (figure-of-eight) microphone. Put the hihat, kick drum, and first rack tom in the null of the mic and then hit record and get on with your life. No foam or anything like that in the way of the drummer, no horrible wash in your snare track. Whaddya got for multi-pattern condensers?
Accordingly, when using a cardoid mic I've gotten good results with putting it directly under the hihat, having the hats in the null. This position also does not disturb the drummer at all.
Claus
Old 18th October 2008
  #12
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peeder's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardhead View Post
Accordingly, when using a cardoid mic I've gotten good results with putting it directly under the hihat, having the hats in the null. This position also does not disturb the drummer at all.
Claus
+1 no need or benefit from some baffling baffle.
Old 18th October 2008
  #13
Gear Maniac
 
davew's Avatar
 

i've spent too long building snare/hat iso's, and none of them did the trick! best thing i ever discovered was the glyn johns recording technique, preferably using ribbons (fig.8's) on OH. does a great job. do a search.
Old 18th October 2008
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pirate View Post
Because I wanna bend it too. Just to make the question a little harder for you guys Joe
Hi Joe!!

To answer that question, I have the answer and it works perfectly.

You takes a few mouse pads and tape them together, then turn on the fabric. Then, I have a swan neck-like arm that is attached to the hihat stand. Then I can bend them a little to go around a bit on the snare drum part.

I'll send 2 photos so you understand, my English may not be the best.

good luck with recordings

best regards

H.Hansson
Attached Thumbnails
Hihat isolation material-picture-1.jpg   Hihat isolation material-picture-2.jpg  
Old 18th October 2008
  #15
Gear Nut
 

Thanks drumrec!
I was not completely what I had in mind, but I will check it out!
Could work pretty decent.
And thanks to chrisp2u. Thats seems cool too.
Even though what I actually wonder about is ideal materials to use.

To peeder and some others. I DONT CARE if you see no need for isolation of the hihat. Why in the world would you reply to a thread about what MATERIAL to use in a hihat snare isolation device.
I did not ask if people feel they need isolation between the hihat and snare.
Again so you understand.
I did not ask if people feel they need isolation between the hihat and snare.

People here HAVE TO stop replying to threads where they do not reply to the actual questions beeing asked.
It makes a good thread useless for searching.

But I guess here we go.
If I`m right you need to start crying about this. Instead of just accepting that your reply`s had NOTHING to do with the question beeing asked.

Peace
Old 18th October 2008
  #16
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peeder's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pirate View Post
To peeder and some others. I DONT CARE if you see no need for isolation of the hihat. Why in the world would you reply to a thread about what MATERIAL to use in a hihat snare isolation device.
I did not ask if people feel they need isolation between the hihat and snare.
Again so you understand.
I did not ask if people feel they need isolation between the hihat and snare.

People here HAVE TO stop replying to threads where they do not reply to the actual questions beeing asked.
It makes a good thread useless for searching.

But I guess here we go.
If I`m right you need to start crying about this. Instead of just accepting that your reply`s had NOTHING to do with the question beeing asked.
Wow you're really very sensitive. This is a public forum, and you can't control what people say in threads you start or participate in. I write for the general readership and not for any individual (I PM for individuals), and when a topic comes up I have an useful opinion on I often share what I have found to be true for it. That is helpful to others even if it might incidentally reduce you to a quivering wreck (apparently).

Stating that the request is unnecessary and can be solved with proper mic selection and placement (not to mention room treatment) is very helpful both to the person asking the question and to legions of inexperienced engineers who might read this thread and feel some need to waste hours upon hours coming up with cockamamie baffles that will just annoy the drummer and do nothing for their tone.

Bleed is good, when properly managed...

Relax.


(And I'll note in passing that if you put a "baffle" on a cardioid mic too close guess what... It becomes omni! )
Old 19th October 2008
  #17
Han
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Pirate View Post
Now that is just annoying..
This has nothing to do with my question.

I want to see how much I can seperate the hihat and snare.
Simply because I always want to control the levels between the drums as much as I can.
Either if I have a good drummer or a bad one.
And I want to do proper work before. Not fix it afterwards.

I have a dream that if someone asks a question at gearslutz they will get it answered. Without a bunch of smartasses who disagree with what the question is..

But back to my question.
I see mr swedien have used plywood, Mu-Metal and compressed wood.
To the acustic experts out there, is this the best solution?
Because I wanna bend it too. Just to make the question a little harder for you guys
And that could be a little hard with those materials.
You see, I have an idea for a pretty cool design
But I am not good with acustic materials(as you notice)

Joe
You may find that annoying, but actually I'm with Peeder on this subject. I guess you use an SM57 for snare, well stop doing that and you're halfway there.

It is a fact that a good drummer is the other half. You're amongst experienced engineers here and total noobs who are eager to learn as much as they can.

A Beyer M201 and a decent drummer and you will need even a hi hat mic.
It's just an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Peace Han
Old 19th October 2008
  #18
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Han View Post
You may find that annoying, but actually I'm with Peeder on this subject. I guess you use an SM57 for snare, well stop doing that and you're halfway there.

It is a fact that a good drummer is the other half. You're amongst experienced engineers here and total noobs who are eager to learn as much as they can.

A Beyer M201 and a decent drummer and you will need even a hi hat mic.
It's just an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

Peace Han
We're not all blessed with amazing drummers every time, even the guys with some experience.

Cardboard works for me when teasing, shouting, threatening or using a beyer M201 on snare fails.
Old 19th October 2008
  #19
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peeder's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRB View Post
We're not all blessed with amazing drummers every time, even the guys with some experience.

Cardboard works for me when teasing, shouting, threatening or using a beyer M201 on snare fails.
Crank your hihat mic in their cans (with obnoxious EQ) and nearly mute their snare mic...they will play better simply to avoid pain.
Old 19th October 2008
  #20
Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
Crank your hihat mic in their cans (with obnoxious EQ) and nearly mute their snare mic...they will play better simply to avoid pain.
Haha, thats good, I'll have to try that!
Old 19th October 2008
  #21
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
Wow you're really very sensitive. This is a public forum, and you can't control what people say in threads you start or participate in. I write for the general readership and not for any individual (I PM for individuals), and when a topic comes up I have an useful opinion on I often share what I have found to be true for it. That is helpful to others even if it might incidentally reduce you to a quivering wreck (apparently).

Stating that the request is unnecessary and can be solved with proper mic selection and placement (not to mention room treatment) is very helpful both to the person asking the question and to legions of inexperienced engineers who might read this thread and feel some need to waste hours upon hours coming up with cockamamie baffles that will just annoy the drummer and do nothing for their tone.

Bleed is good, when properly managed...

Relax.


(And I'll note in passing that if you put a "baffle" on a cardioid mic too close guess what... It becomes omni! )
Peeder.
This has nothing what so ever to do with beeing sensitive.
If someone asks a question about a mic preamp, it is kind of dumb answering about a compressor.
Feel free to share your opinions. But keep to the question beeing asked.
If someone ask about a mic. Reply if you can help the threadstarter. If not you only spam the thread.

You say you write for general readership and not for any individual.
That is just stupid, man. And I think you realize this.
It is not often a thread is started by anyone else than a individual who needs help. And the point is to help this person.

I hope your pride can allow you to not respond more to this thread. Because you have not given any usefull information to the question beeing asked.
And I doubt strongly you are suddenly going to help me finding the right materials to use in my device.

For the rest.
I use beta56, sm57 and audix i5 on snare. And have worked with drumrecording a very long time.
But one thing that has never happend is that I have to little hihat in the snaremic. My point is not to completely eliminate the hh bleed. Because that will never happen.
But I want to reduce it so much as possible. As simple as that.
Old 20th October 2008
  #22
Lives for gear
 

looking for the same thing. ideas so far...

Welcome to sE Electronics


to my eyes, this uses the same mesh you can buy here:

DragonModz Shop


clamp a boom to your hihat stand, and drill some holes into the side length of the tip of the boom. bolt the metal grill to the holes you drilled in the boom. eg. using:

On-Stage Stands Boom Arm | Sweetwater.com
On-Stage Stands Side Mount Boom | Sweetwater.com
or
Buy Pearl CH70 Cymbal Holder online at Musician's Friend

then all you need is a layer of sound blocker to zip tie to your grill, and you've got a shapeable adjustable baffle. kind of like drumrec's above.

for material, perhaps some sort of dense closed cell foam. like:

Noise Stop Systems: Soundproofing Product Range VS Foams
Foam


dunno. anyone know a good place to buy a few sq ft of that sort of thing?

maybe the volara here:

Yoga Mats, Exercise Mat, Polyethylene Foam, Yoga Mat, Exercise Mats
Volara Foam


or perhaps better:

Polyethylene
Old 21st October 2008
  #23
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by peeder View Post
Crank your hihat mic in their cans (with obnoxious EQ) and nearly mute their snare mic...they will play better simply to avoid pain.

If you REALY need to do that it's because you got the wrong drummer at your session....
And that,s the job of the producer to find the right musician......

And making the hat louder in the can wont make the drummer play the hat softer,
learning how to play the proper feel and groove will make him better.......
Old 21st October 2008
  #24
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
If you REALY need to do that it's because you got the wrong drummer at your session....
And that,s the job of the producer to find the right musician......

And making the hat louder in the can wont make the drummer play the hat softer,
learning how to play the proper feel and groove will make him better.......
That's fine if you have time to give drum lessons midway through a session. Not always the case.
Old 21st October 2008
  #25
Gear Head
 
Don Clendenon's Avatar
 

try positioning the hat mic so it doesnt pick up the snare and the snare mic so it doesn't pick up the hat. if you put the hat mic so it is facing away from the drummer about the hat stand pointed between the crown of the top hat and the outter edge that's away from the drummer you'll get pretty good isolation. if you position the snare mic so its aimed at the side of the shell of the snare drum you will usually get a good amout of crack from the snare and whatck from the snares with the meaty tone of the snare drum with not a lot of hat inthe balance. that way you dont need any matereial between the drum and the hat which usually doesnt owrk anyway
Old 21st October 2008
  #26
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRB View Post
That's fine if you have time to give drum lessons midway through a session. Not always the case.


That's why you need the right musician for the session ................ The studio is not a place to learn , but a place to perform.
Old 21st October 2008
  #27
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbone View Post
That's why you need the right musician for the session ................ The studio is not a place to learn , but a place to perform.
But it's often the place "less than ideal" musicians end up.

Certainly an "ever decreasing circles" argument.

You play the hands you're dealt, if that means cheating, so be it.
Old 21st October 2008
  #28
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bigbone's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRB View Post
But it's often the place "less than ideal" musicians end up.

Certainly an "ever decreasing circles" argument.

You play the hands you're dealt, if that means cheating, so be it.
Don't know what you are talking.. that's the palace were i love to perform..
Old 21st October 2008
  #29
Gear Head
 
A.V.T's Avatar
 

I use a hypercardiode mic and a little desser in a snare top track if is necesary.
Old 21st October 2008
  #30
Gear Nut
 

Thank you so much audiovisceral for your reply.

For most others.
Can you please keep to the topic, or start a new thread about the need or not for isolation between hihat and snare?

(And just a little notice off topic. I will not crank any headphones. I play on a team with my clients)
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