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is FireWire dying?
Old 19th October 2008
  #31
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsvisser View Post
UDP has its place. UDP is not part of TCP, although both protocols are both compatible / capable of being used on the same transport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
User Datagram Protocol (UDP) is one of the core protocols of the Internet Protocol Suite.
Quote:
The Internet Protocol Suite (commonly TCP/IP) is the set of communications protocols used for the Internet and other similar networks.
just to make sure we are talking about the same thing
Old 19th October 2008
  #32
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsvisser View Post
In the end, who cares if firewire is more elegant in the way that it does its job?
I do. I believe that any other serious programmer also does.

If it´s alright for you to buy a firewireless notebook for recording hoping that one day a ethernet audio interface will be release: Go on, I wont stop you!

Or go USB - you wont even have to wait: Also less elegant than FW, but you are correct: It gets the job done and most people on earth won´t care. OK the track count is much lower if you want to make it work (similar if you´d compare FW800 to Gigabit Ethernet - but who cares as long as it somehow gets the job done)
Old 19th October 2008
  #33
Gear Addict
 

owned.
Old 19th October 2008
  #34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
just to make sure we are talking about the same thing
I do believe that we are talking about the same thing. I'm not sure where you got that quote from, but tcp/ip does not equal Internet protocol suite, it is one of the protocols that makes up the suite. UDP is a separate protocol of the suite but is not a subset of TCP. You may have run into one of the instances where Wikipedia should not be relied upon as an absolute reference for in this instance, if not outright wrong, was at least taken out of context.

... but we quible over minutia that has little to do about the long term health of FireWire.
Old 19th October 2008
  #35
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synthoid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
An unidirectional ethernet connection cannot have a bandwith guarantee since both communication points can start to start to transmit data whenever they want.
If both communication points can transmit data, then it's not unidirectional. By unidirectional I meant one transmitter and one receiver. Like ADAT.

-synthoid
Old 19th October 2008
  #36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eigenwert View Post
I do. I believe that any other serious programmer also does.

If it´s alright for you to buy a firewireless notebook for recording hoping that one day a ethernet audio interface will be release: Go on, I wont stop you!

Or go USB - you wont even have to wait: Also less elegant than FW, but you are correct: It gets the job done and most people on earth won´t care. OK the track count is much lower if you want to make it work (similar if you´d compare FW800 to Gigabit Ethernet - but who cares as long as it somehow gets the job done)
As a programmer myself, It would be nice to believe that end users would see through the UI and appreciate the work and clever bits that I put into my code, but I must take the more realistic viewpoint that the end result will be the only thing that matters. Years of reliable operation is easily undone by one glitch, where my name will be cursed. With modern OS and I/O and socket interface I think that more and more of the lower level I/O functionality will be abstracted to the typical applications developer. Please do not take my dubious outlook on FireWire as unappreciativeness on it's positive qualities, it is simply that I feel that the next generation of USB will win over the next generation of Firewire... and not only due to absolute performance reasons. Obviously right now today, FireWire outperforms USB/USB2, but even Apple's slow retreat from Firewire, which some would call brave, others foolhardy, portends things to come...

Why FireWire 800 when you can do e-SATA?
Why Firewire 3200 when you can do native PCI-e in the form of ExpressCARD?
For everthing else, USB3 is going to wipe the floor up as the catchall interconnect, because more of the major players will support it, it will be cheaper, and it will be fast enough to do the job it will be asked to do.
Old 19th October 2008
  #37
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Firewire 400 is still in the MacBook 13" 2.1ghz.
It's also still in the MacBook Pro models.

It's definitely on the way out on eveyr brand in the next 3-4 years tops imo.
Old 19th October 2008
  #38
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I am a little bummed that they dropped FW support on the new MacBook models. It certainly is a beautiful new laptop. But i hate Apple's new concept that you have to buy a "Pro" model to get "Pro" features. Where does that leave all the budget-conscious music makers out there who would be just fine with a simple FW audio interface and a MacBook?

Oh sure, right NOW you can still get the 13" white MacBook 2.1 Ghz, but that machine is certainly on its way out over the next few months, leaving the MacBook for "consumers" and the MacBook Pro for "professional" users.

It's a shame that Apple would dictate as to who needs what features, and who is a professional user and who isnt.

Firewire is essential for low-latency audio connectivity on a portable platform and that won't change anytime soon.
Old 19th October 2008
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry b View Post
I am a little bummed that they dropped FW support on the new MacBook models. It certainly is a beautiful new laptop. But i hate Apple's new concept that you have to buy a "Pro" model to get "Pro" features. Where does that leave all the budget-conscious music makers out there who would be just fine with a simple Mbox Mini and a MacBook?

Oh sure, right NOW you can still get the 13" white MacBook 2.1 Ghz, but that machine is certainly on its way out over the next few months, leaving the MacBook for "consumers" and the MacBook Pro for "professional" users.

It's a shame that Apple would dictate as to who needs what features, and who is a professional user and who isnt.

Firewire is essential for low-latency audio connectivity on a portable platform and that won't change anytime soon.
Yes, but is FireWire dying?

Would the floppy disk be live and well today if only Apple had kept it to this day?

It makes no sense at all for them to leave out FireWire unless it´s a lack in demand or they see something comming. It´s their own technology for christ sake, even ipods used to have FireWire.
Old 19th October 2008
  #40
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I'm with Laryry--my take, it's a move by the beancounters.

Some mook must have said, "Why get a macbook pro when I can run logic + macbook + ensemble just fine?"

So the beancounters told the engineers (I'm guessing) "Get rid of firewire in all non-pro laptops."

Simple as that.

The whole point with wireless is that most laptops come with both an ethernet port AND built in wireless. SO, most people use the wireless and the ethernet port just sits there idle. If you had no fw connection, wouldn't it be nicer (given the limitations of USB) to use the ethernet port for audio?

And the whole point with tcp/ip & udp is that those are just two protocols commonly used on ethernet cat 5 cabling. I was thinking a whole new protocol (if one doesn't exist already) could be developed for audio over ethernet. the cool thing about it is, if done right, it could allow for multiple daws to share one set of convertors using COTSgigabit switches and hubs.
Old 20th October 2008
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by crufty View Post
I'm with Laryry--my take, it's a move by the beancounters.

Some mook must have said, "Why get a macbook pro when I can run logic + macbook + ensemble just fine?"

So the beancounters told the engineers (I'm guessing) "Get rid of firewire in all non-pro laptops."

Simple as that.

The whole point with wireless is that most laptops come with both an ethernet port AND built in wireless. SO, most people use the wireless and the ethernet port just sits there idle. If you had no fw connection, wouldn't it be nicer (given the limitations of USB) to use the ethernet port for audio?

And the whole point with tcp/ip & udp is that those are just two protocols commonly used on ethernet cat 5 cabling. I was thinking a whole new protocol (if one doesn't exist already) could be developed for audio over ethernet. the cool thing about it is, if done right, it could allow for multiple daws to share one set of convertors using COTSgigabit switches and hubs.
Yamaha has Cobranet which is a media specific codec over CAT-5 and standard ethernet hardware. I don't think it is a low latency transport, though, mostly for distributed sound.

What I would really like to see, is a chip level MADI on board future Mac computers. How about petitioning NVIDIA and Apple for a MADI controller on the core chipset? If there is any one transport that is emerging as a standard for audio, it would in my mind be MADI. It would have to be a dual mode transceiver, to operate as stereo audio or SPDIF for consumer applications and MADI (optical) for pro. It would also isolate the computer from the recording rig, electrically, as plastic fiber is the only interlink... supports MIDI too. I realize this is simply daydreaming though, and we will most likely see USB3 equipped consumer machines and ExpressCARD2 and USB3 equipped pro machines.
Old 20th October 2008
  #42
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synthoid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsvisser View Post
What I would really like to see, is a chip level MADI on board future Mac computers. How about petitioning NVIDIA and Apple for a MADI controller on the core chipset?
Wow, would that be sweet or what.

Too bad it's for a teeny tiny sliver of a marketplace (us).

I think it would be more than enough for Apple to make PCI Express available (via ExpressCard or whatever) on all their machines. It's fast, it's a relatively new standard, it supports all kinds of communication topologies, it's not tied to particular kinds of devices, and lots of the audio interface manufacturers already offer pci-x products. RME has a MADI interface that uses PCI express for example (IIRC).

-synthoid
Old 20th October 2008
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
Wow, would that be sweet or what.
That would be fantastic, kind of like how the atari had midi. They already have optical i/o (up to 5.1 I think).
Old 20th October 2008
  #44
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synthoid's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
That would be fantastic, kind of like how the atari had midi. They already have optical i/o (up to 5.1 I think).
Yeah, sigh. Seems very unlikely to me that they would be interested in this. MADI is heavy-duty music production technology. It doesn't benefit users who want to listen to music, no matter how 'hifi' their tastes are. It's not like the high-end graphics stuff that's aimed at gamers in that sense; the graphics benefit the end-user of the games, but MADI would only benefit the content producers. And (haha) since Apple is simultaneously working on kicking the legs out of the revenue model for content producers, it knows we won't be able to afford very many computers anyhow. heh

-synthoid
Old 20th October 2008
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
Yeah, sigh. Seems very unlikely to me that they would be interested in this.
Yeah maybe, but since all macs today already have toslink spdif it doesn´t seem like a huge effort, they might disagree with that one though. heh
Old 20th October 2008
  #46
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synthoid's Avatar
 

MADI has two orders of magnitude higher bandwidth than SP/DIF. (I agree that this would be wonderful but I don't think we should hold our breath.)
-synthoid
Old 20th October 2008
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fredrik View Post
Would the floppy disk be live and well today if only Apple had kept it to this day?
There were plenty of acceptable alternative for storing data before Apple dropped the floppy drive (CD-Rom, network, SCSI, USB, etc)

Quote:
It makes no sense at all for them to leave out FireWire unless it´s a lack in demand or they see something comming. It´s their own technology for christ sake, even ipods used to have FireWire.
iPods can use USB 2.0 fine, so that's not an issue.

There problem is that Apple is being short-sighted and looking only at the future of consumer camcorders, as if that's all Firewire was being used for. Never mind that there are thousands of miniDV camcorders in the field now and still being sold which require Firewire, but Firewire is very popular in audio right now. There are tons of products on the market and still coming out which use Firewire, and they are geared towards all price points, but many of which fall within MacBook budgets.
Old 23rd October 2008
  #48
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

My take is:

1. Drives with moving parts are going away real soon.

2. USB 3 is fast enough for most applications and dirt cheap to implement.

3. A new, much faster generation of Ethernet chip has just come out.

Add it up and within a very few years there will probably be nothing but USB3 and Ethernet simply because there'll be no need for anything else.
Old 23rd October 2008
  #49
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Good thing I bought my MBP a few months ago I guess.
Old 24th October 2008
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
My take is:

1. Drives with moving parts are going away real soon.

2. USB 3 is fast enough for most applications and dirt cheap to implement.

3. A new, much faster generation of Ethernet chip has just come out.

Add it up and within a very few years there will probably be nothing but USB3 and Ethernet simply because there'll be no need for anything else.
1. Really doesn't have much a bearing on FW or USB. SSD are internal and it'll be a while before they start appearing in external cases due to cost.

2. It's not always about speed. Latency is pretty important as well. I believe in tailoring the connection for the use. If you need Fibre Channel go with FC if you need Ethernet go with ethernet. I don't care if it's dirt cheap to implement. I'm not a manufacturer. I want something that's going to improve my computing full stop

3. Even if 10g ethernet becomes cheap it still doesn't make it an ideal connection for certain devices.


As musicians we ought not concern ourselves with the issues that confront manufactuerers. The end for most of us is the ability to make music or video as painlessly as possible.

Be wary of the company pushing "good enough" chances are "good enough" technology is where you are getting fleeced and they are recouping margin.
Old 24th October 2008
  #51
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post
...As musicians we ought not concern ourselves with the issues that confront manufactuerers. The end for most of us is the ability to make music or video as painlessly as possible...
Unless we can afford to build our own electronic component parts from scratch, we are totally dependent on manufacturers and at the mercy of every issue that confronts them.

There has been a revolution in CPU power and solid state memory that is about to change everything much as the microprocessor did back in the 1980s.
Old 28th October 2008
  #52
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Eigenwert's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by synthoid View Post
If both communication points can transmit data, then it's not unidirectional. By unidirectional I meant one transmitter and one receiver. Like ADAT.

-synthoid
sorry I meant bidirectional
Old 28th October 2008
  #53
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judah's Avatar
 

I hope not, should get my Aurora 16 with LT_FW tomorrow.
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