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'Mix Fashion' and SELLING OUT. On any level. Virtual Instrument Plugins
Old 11th March 2003
  #31
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covert's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mitgong
OK. Here's one: When did the "click", as a component of the "kick drum sound" first appear? When did it become compulsory?
I'd say that click came in after boxy and overmuffled. It became mandatory when speed made for BPMs too fast to allow room for kick drum decay.
Old 12th March 2003
  #32
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ckerian's Avatar
 

I dont know what to say except.... dont lose faith. This is your calling! Your a born and bred AE.

this may be the year of Slipperman!

your an inspiration to us Slipperman. I'll be recording that "Cow Jazz" thing tonight. creating an illusion for them. they want the "nashville" sound. I'm gonna do my best to make that illusion using whatever i can get my fat fingers on.

thanks to you!
ck
Old 12th March 2003
  #33
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sonic dogg's Avatar
GEEZ....i thought I invented that darn 'click'...when i did live sound during the 70's it was the only way to get the kick drum out to where you could hear it over the gaddburned marshalls..."a little more 3k outta do it"......(actually, i learned it from a country foh guy in tulsa).....go figger
Old 12th March 2003
  #34
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
Quote:
posted by zowd:
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Curve Dominant:
Interesting.

But it seems you're assuming the "creative force" cannot see the tempest for what it is, and chronicle that view.

And it seems you're assuming the purist has an objective view of the tempest, free of judgement.

It's judgement that kills us. The problem with purists, is that they bore us to death with judgement. And sentimentalism. And nostalgia.

Likewise, the problem sometimes with moderns, is that they kill us with emptyness...all form, no substance.

So, we're locked in this struggle between these two extremes, and it's totally unnecessary. When the lyricism drives the innovation of expression, you find the third way. Getting beyond "good and evil" is the key. Freeing ourselves from judgement.

??
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Au contraire, my dear altered dominant. I make no suppositions or assumptions about what either kind of participant can or can't 'see'. Being in one pigeon hole or the other is a function not of philosophy per se, but of action. When you start employing interventionist methods, whatever your motivation, you're becoming part of the creative process...perhaps a simple lackey following commands, or perhaps a core contributor. The idea is, a Creative Interventionist who chooses to act as an archivist is now an archivist. When he/she goes the other way, they're back to being a Creative Interventionist.

I see no reason to impose some kind of dichotomy here, either. It is, after all, a completely subjective problem domain.

zowd
Zowd,

I get where you're coming from. But when you draw a distinction between "Creative Interventionist" and "Archivist," doesn't that automatically impose a dichotomy?

Isn't ANY form of "archiving" inherently "intervention"??

Isn't the act of choosing to record something an "intervention"? Which mics to use, where to place them, what to record to and how you know what you're actually recording?

My point in that post was: I don't see ANY dichotomy or distinction AT ALL. In my view, the purist ideal is an illusion. It's the sentimental attachement to a standard that is ITSELF completely "interventionist." It is simply nostalgia.

Not that there's anything WRONG with that! I LOVE making "retro" style recordings (just ask Jules, hee-hee).

But in my view, the leap from Gene Krupa using two kick drums to Missy Elliot playing her chorus refrain in reverse is a very small one. From a purely artistic standpoint, there's no leap at all.

This is getting pretty deep, yo? The Curve needs another beer...
Old 12th March 2003
  #35
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mitgong
OK. Here's one: When did the "click", as a component of the "kick drum sound" first appear? When did it become compulsory?
... and how many of you regret it is (compulsory) ???
Old 12th March 2003
  #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by slipperman
Mitgong.

As I'm sure you already know......

A guy right in your hometown named Alex Perialis had as much to do with 'Popularizing' that sound as ANYBODY. He was also a huge pioneer of the 'No-mid' guitar sound of mid-80's metal. His 'big picture' mix approach for heavy music was either adopted or borrowed from as heavily as anyone in the history of that genre IMHO.

Initially...... All on a modest Harrison console.

A brilliantly realized original in my estimation.

Alex may not have been the "be all - end all" as far as sonics, but he knew how to 'vibe' a heavy mix like nobody's business.

Best Regards.



SM.
He's also a heck of a nice guy, and very busy. He used to seem "apologetic" for the work he did in the 80's, and I now I think he gets tired of being sought after for that sound and that sound alone. He's done beautiful work in many other genres.

Last I heard, that Harrison is still sitting neglected and alone on a warehouse floor somewhere.
Old 12th March 2003
  #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by malice
... and how many of you regret it is (compulsory) ???
I regret it every time I record my yummy double-headed Slingerland and then some damn fool bass player asks to be in the mix, too. As if the bass mattered. Sheesh.
Old 12th March 2003
  #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by mitgong
As if the bass mattered. Sheesh.
Ow!
Old 12th March 2003
  #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Martin
Ow!
I don't think that every note of the bass should be heard necessarily, in the context of the mix. It depends on what you're shooting for.
Old 12th March 2003
  #40
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malice's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mitgong
As if the bass mattered. Sheesh.
you are aware I'm a bass player, right ?

heh

malice
Old 12th March 2003
  #41
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matucha's Avatar
I'm 23...

I'm with Curve D about the creativity and artistic possibilities of computer editing... and I can extend it also to effect side.

I don't like rock, I hate the new and I accept the old one. I hate pop r'n'b/soul all over the radios...

I like jazz and creative intelligent electronic music, also ambient music...

I love sound of the old brasilian records, but I hate what the same people did in '80. The same is about older soundtracks, soft dynamic sound, powerful impressive colorful...

I myself do a sample based music with some live overdubs (more and more), but I do a lot of work after record something, not to correct the performance, just to add another performance editing effecting manipulating...

I hate autotune

It is funny I do one thing someone wrote here... I like oldschool sound but when it comes to recording I slowly demand brighter and brighter sound, just can't escape... I can see myself saying the AE to do it oldschool and then after listening a bit... "well, maybe the top end could go higher..." ;-)
Old 12th March 2003
  #42
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matucha's Avatar
...and I'm totall bass addict... bass is always centre of my compositions, mostly it is the most melodic instrument in the track! Weird?
Old 12th March 2003
  #43
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Jeez. Make one damn joke about bass...
Old 12th March 2003
  #44
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sonic dogg's Avatar
Bass players are there for the specific reason of getting the drummer up to four..............peece!
Old 13th March 2003
  #45
Gear Head
 

Cool thread, Slippy. And great opening post.

I'm enjoying the dwoz/Curve repartee. Interesting stuff.

So, SM, how would 1988's 'And Justice for All...' sound if it was recorded today?

That record has the clickiest kick ever, and NO BASS. None. Only low, woofy guitar. Even in 1988, I thought that record sounded very odd. Very, very dry compared to most of the other metal of those days. In a way, I suppose that album marked the end of long '80s reverbs, especially on drums.

But, what the hell do I know?
Old 13th March 2003
  #46
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sonic dogg's Avatar
...Wouldn't mwagener know how "and justice for all was recorded"........or am i daft?
Old 13th March 2003
  #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by sonic dogg
...Wouldn't mwagener know how "and justice for all was recorded"........or am i daft?
Yeah, I think you're right! BTW, did Wagener do "No More Tears"? That rocks.
Old 13th March 2003
  #48
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Re: 'Mix Fashion' and SELLING OUT. On any level.

Quote:
Originally posted by slipperman
[B]
My clients do not pay me for accurate depictions of reality.

They pay me to create a gigantic illusion.

The grander the illusion the more they're smiling.

Whip together a complete WHOPPER of a recording and they're SWINGING FROM THE LIGHT FIXTURES! The bigger the lie.... The wilder the applause.





It took me darn near a decade and a half to start subscribing to this mindset.

]
I've always subscribed to this mindset. It's all a work of fiction. Just like a good songwriter who doesn't bleat on and on about how he FEELS about stuff--he creates a fictional character who makes observations or enacts a drama or does whatever enigmatic thing he does in the imaginary world the writer has created. The listener hears, is intrigued or moved, goes there, experiences pleasure or interest or emotion or fascination. Records are sold. Songs are downloaded.

Like always, just make it sound good. If the vocal sounds better tuned, then tune it. If beat detective makes certain interesting things possible, then use it. More tools, more veins to mine, more ironies to convolute.

But it seems like you're talking about 2 issues here. Is the problem that you're making music that is less realistic and more "fictional", or is the problem that the fiction you're creating is some elses's and not yours? If it's totally the latter, then you are already Wiley Coyote out over the edge of the cliff and in moments you will have to look down.

If you're not in some way pleasing yourself then how do you know what to do in the course of all those thousands of decisions you have to make which you can't ask somebody else about?

Does the secret identity thing prevent you from pointing out some examples of what you're talking about?

Does HOHOHO mean you're having fun in spite of it all?

-R
Old 13th March 2003
  #49
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Does HOHOHO mean you're having fun in spite of it all?
I think it just means he can laugh at himself, whether he's having fun or not...

But, what the hell do I know?
Old 13th March 2003
  #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by G-man
Yeah, I think you're right! BTW, did Wagener do "No More Tears"? That rocks.
No I believe No more tears was done by wermans old side man Duane Barron.

KBOY
Old 13th March 2003
  #51
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Curve Dominant's Avatar
About these clicking kick drums...

I thought that started in the late 70's and very early 80's - '83, in mixes of new-wave dance records and the late-era disco that preceeded house...when those big fat compressed basslines came into vogue. On the dancefloor, the kick would get lost in a sea of mud if it didn't that click in the attack.

If I recall, that big disco hit by New Order had a nice little click mixed ever-so-subtly in. What was that song?? The one with the staccato kick.

I like to record big monster basslines that plough through the mix like a liquid freight train, so that 3KHz whack on a kick is essential.
Old 13th March 2003
  #52
Gear Head
 

Slipperman.

Quote:
I literally spent about 4000 hrs. of time in an 15-18 month period, all but LOCKED in my main mix room RE-INVENTING MYSELF and THE WAY I HEAR to fit the 'Fashion of the day'.
Had to do the same thing myself and it was probably the most difficult, and scary thing I have ever had to do in my career. I was hearing a lot of new production ideas from the younger guys and kind of got a feeling I was being left behind (Well I was). Now that may sound silly to some, but in my opinion its the sign of a good mixer that can re-invent himself, or has the ability to turn his/her hand to almost anything. I would even go further and say that its now becoming essential for all mixers to be much more diverse these days than in the past.

The turning point was when I was listening to some drum n bass one day. At first I was saying to myself "This IS Crap" but then I realised I only thought that because I couldnt do it with my analog only setup. Not only that I really couldnt understand how they Managed to warp the drums. At this time I didnt even know what a plugin was (Im not kidding) So my re-invention was a fairly long, and hard learning process from a technical and engineering point of view.
So, if I didnt meet the challenge head on I would still be trapped in time and my choice of work would be limited. It was difficult but definitely worth it.

And Im sure I will have to do it all again someday!!
Old 13th March 2003
  #53
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by sonic dogg
Bass players are there for the specific reason of getting the drummer up to four..............
Dummers count to four. A bass has four strings.

Coincidence?

I think not. yuktyy
Old 13th March 2003
  #54
Most times I just flick over to the AES switch on my Cranesong Hedd to hear The Foo Fighters "Monkey Wrench" - then flick the switch back to SPDIF to hear the mix I have up.

That gets me close to where I wanna be on a lot of mix work I do.

Lately (just this project) I 'trick out' my mix with a Finalizer for global eq & maximizing to get me in the ball park..

I will record a flat version, and a 'tricked out' Finalizer version

Then, after importing the flat version into a PT mastering session, I will use the Sony Oxford GML plug in to master it better & use the Finalizer made mix ref as a target to beat. I am storeing my Finalizer settings, they are v handy for frequency numbers, q bandwith and cut or bust levels)

Sorry if OT. Carry on!
Old 13th March 2003
  #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
Dummers count to four. A bass has four strings.

Coincidence?

I think not. yuktyy
I guess this is why I'm in trouble. Usually, the damn bass player is standing in front of me, and I can't see the strings. I'm stranded!

Also, if I join a prog-rock band, should I make sure the bass player uses a five string?

help!
Old 13th March 2003
  #56
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Re: Re: Re: 'Mix Fashion' and SELLING OUT. On any level.

Quote:
Originally posted by slipperman
[B]
I love the craft. I love the kids. Being around the boyish optimism and non-stop tom-foolery that is stock and trade at my shop is like the elixir of youth for me. We have more fun than you can shake 3 sticks at most days. I just often wonder about the 'timeless' quality of AE work that leans more to the 'depiction' and less to the 'illusion'.
We've got that in common. I've been having a blast writing songs with a 15 year old girl (yes, her mom's always in the room), which usually involves 8 hours of trying to crack each other up punctuated by a nice dinner somewhere. Dancing around inside the brain of a teenage girl is indeed rejuvenating and, despite the odds (my ears are a bit old also), the results so far are promising. (But even when we rcord a reference vocal I still reach for the U-67 and DRS-2 and Cranesong.) One song we were doing was too literally about a girl's insecurity about a boy's affections (or lack thereof). By breaking the vocal into chunks, adding extreme autotune on some, telephone eq on others, different effects, different pans, it turned the lyric into a joy/fear ride through the singer's brain, being bombarded with contradictory and incomplete thoughts. Like something out of Yellow Submarine. So by increasing the illusion, the result was a more real depiction of what it feels like to be in the singer's shoes. Go figure.

At the very least, these are interesting times.

-R
Old 13th March 2003
  #57
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Renie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jules


Then, after importing the flat version into a PT mastering session, I will use the Sony Oxford GML plug in to master it better & use the Finalizer made mix ref as a target to beat. I am storeing my Finalizer settings, they are v handy for frequency numbers, q bandwith and cut or bust levels)

Sorry if OT. Carry on!
Jules,

For this purpose do you find the GML better than outboard EQ, say a Massive Passive for example??

Thanks
Old 13th March 2003
  #58
Well, I cant afford a mastering style hardware unit like that at present.

So I dunno.

I DO like going to pro mastering when bugets permit. I figure this is the best I can do with what I got.

Old 13th March 2003
  #59
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RKrizman,
That girl is 15? Man! I thought she looked considerably older. I guess I have to bide my time Hope it all works out!
Old 14th March 2003
  #60
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by mitgong
I guess this is why I'm in trouble. Usually, the damn bass player is standing in front of me, and I can't see the strings. I'm stranded!

Also, if I join a prog-rock band, should I make sure the bass player uses a five string?
Totally. Otherwise you can't play anything in 5/4 and everyone knows that if it ain't in 5/4 it's not prog-rwak. Although you have to be careful because you might end up with subdivisions of 20 and then it's just a mess.

Right now I'm in the middle of mixing a 12 song album and the singer was listening to mixes in his car with his girlfriend yesterday. She made a comment to the effect of "it sounds like I have a pillow over my ears" on one song. Damn I suck. At least the band was here to approve it. Ah well. Bring on the high shelf!!!
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