The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Radar into Protools HD
Old 4th April 2005
  #1
Gear Addict
 
Flora's Avatar
 

Radar into Protools HD

What would be the downside of tracking on Radar for its amazing converters and then transferring to HD for common studio compatiblity, plug-ins etc. Do you think the D/As in the Radar are essential to getting the benefits of that format? thanks for any help - I'm trying to decide between getting a low end Radar system or an HD system to compliment my 2" 16 track. I have PT LE now which I could theoretically use to transfer Radar files to...
Old 4th April 2005
  #2
Lives for gear
 

The converters on the Radar don't get really good sounding till you get to the Nyquist range and up IMO. I think the D/A's have a large part to do with the sound of the system as a whole and are excellent sounding. That said, if you are tracking to 2" and planning on mixing in pro-tools or coming out of protools through an analog board, I'd just get HD and be done with it, for simplicity sake. I wouldn't bother with a low end Radar system, but a Nyquist system would be good to do digital transfers and then dump it back to the Radar for mixdown, though I'm not sure all of that would be worth the hassel. Personally, If I had a nice working 2", I'd just use that and be happy all day long. If you need pro-tools for clients, get protools. If you want Radar for yourself, get Radar. I personally have never had a fellow musician/propective client be impressed by the fact that I have a Radar system and a Trident console. They are more impressed by the guy down the street with an mbox and a mackie digital console, because automation and plug-ins are so cool. dfegad

Hope that was of some help.
Sean
Old 5th April 2005
  #3
Gear Addict
 
Flora's Avatar
 

Thanks Sean. That actually was helpful. Basically I want to get a Radar system because I think sound should come first but I'm trying to envision if theres any way I'd regret not having gone HD for any of the superficial reasons that clients might be prone to caring about. It'll be a huge investment for me so I only want to do it once (for a while anyway!). Thanks again. Tucker
Old 5th April 2005
  #4
Lives for gear
 
drew's Avatar
might make more sense to just put nice converters in front of PT. Radar's don't do tempo maps, for example. They are also limited to 24 tracks.
Old 5th April 2005
  #5
Lives for gear
 
Syki's Avatar
 

"Radar's don't do tempo maps" I don't know about your Radar but my Radar most certainly does do Tempo Maps.(Under project menu/Tempo Map)

I have a low end Radar 2 I use for my front end of my Digi 002r. It works fine, and IMHO I like the sound of Radar converters(Low end non Nyquist) better then protools. Bottom end is wider more depth.

I use a Tascam IFTAD to do digital transfers (8 tracks at a time)
You have a 2" multitrack machine, why bother with Radar?
Old 5th April 2005
  #6
Lives for gear
 
drew's Avatar
cool, glad they finally added that. i bought one of the first R24s in 2000 (sold it in 2003) and sure you could set a tempo but you couldn't do changes mid song and map out complex songs.
Old 5th April 2005
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Syki's Avatar
 

Sorry, you're right Drew , it still can't change tempos in mid song but I always think of the RADAR as a digital 24 track tape machine.....
Old 5th April 2005
  #8
Lives for gear
 
blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ziegenh5
I personally have never had a fellow musician/propective client be impressed by the fact that I have a Radar system and a Trident console. They are more impressed by the guy down the street with an mbox and a mackie digital console, because automation and plug-ins are so cool. dfegad
EXACTLY.

I've only ever had ONE client who had ANY idea what any of the gear was, and that was because he is also a very talented engineer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EVERYONE who has EVER called me:

"DO YOU HAVE PROTOOLS???"
Old 5th April 2005
  #9
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flora
I'm trying to decide between getting a low end Radar system or an HD system to compliment my 2" 16 track. I have PT LE now which I could theoretically use to transfer Radar files to...
You're missing one big piece of information. If it's a question of Radar OR PTHD, the biggest determinant of how good the Radar sounds will be what console you're running it through.

-R
Old 5th April 2005
  #10
Gear Addict
 
Flora's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syki
"Radar's don't do tempo maps" I don't know about your Radar but my Radar most certainly does do Tempo Maps.(Under project menu/Tempo Map)

I have a low end Radar 2 I use for my front end of my Digi 002r. It works fine, and IMHO I like the sound of Radar converters(Low end non Nyquist) better then protools. Bottom end is wider more depth.

I use a Tascam IFTAD to do digital transfers (8 tracks at a time)
You have a 2" multitrack machine, why bother with Radar?
For editing when needed and more tracks when needed and when the project cant afford tape and to back stuff up and to have access to a format that is more compatible with other studios i use (or at least more transportable) etc...
Old 5th April 2005
  #11
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syki
"Radar's don't do tempo maps" I don't know about your Radar but my Radar most certainly does do Tempo Maps.(Under project menu/Tempo Map)

I have a low end Radar 2 I use for my front end of my Digi 002r. It works fine, and IMHO I like the sound of Radar converters(Low end non Nyquist) better then protools. Bottom end is wider more depth.

I use a Tascam IFTAD to do digital transfers (8 tracks at a time)
You have a 2" multitrack machine, why bother with Radar?

This has been on my mind; I bought a Rosetta 800 96 for my Digi002; then the guy backed out of the deal. I think he gave me too low of a price and decided to keep it, anyway, he put the money back in my Paypal account.

So I've been thinking that for the price of a Rosetta 800 96 I could get a low end Radar and use that as the front end of my 002. Anyone have input on whether or not I should do this? One important point is that I use PTLE like a tape recorder; meaning I don't do any editing; heck, I barely ever punch in. any editing I do is super, super simple stuff, so am I the perfect candidate for an 002 Radar rig?
Old 5th April 2005
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Syki's Avatar
 

Flora wrote"For editing when needed and more tracks when needed and when the project cant afford tape and to back stuff up and to have access to a format that is more compatible with other studios i use (or at least more transportable) etc..."

But so would pro tools HD (would def. give more tracks then Radar/digi002r combo).

The Radar/ digi 002r combo gives me 56 tracks straight up and thats enough for what I do.

I am a writer producer so I couldn't care less about Client wow factor crap,I chose my set up for sound quality reasons and I think the Radar is the closest hrd disk recorder next to tape.

My opinion does not count if you are running a commercial studio though,....lol not much help huh!!

If I had the dough, and I ran a commercial studio I would by the Radar wth Nyquist converters and protools HD3 and the SSL AWS900 console (like the MPCist) But since I don't..oh well
Old 5th April 2005
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Syki's Avatar
 

Hey Max, you can probably get a Radar 2 and digi 002r for less then $5000. To me thats a hell of lot of bang for the Buck!!
Old 5th April 2005
  #14
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 

I've already got the Digi 002, and a bunch of API preamps...the Radar has always seemed like a good idea. So are there downsides? I'm so ready to just order one, but I know I'm gonna have to do some listening and reading. Any thoughts, facts, exaggerations will be seriously considered!
Old 6th April 2005
  #15
TER
Gear Maniac
 
TER's Avatar
Funny, I did a session today that came in because I have a RADAR and the client wanted to use those converters. I use mine ONLY as converters...so it can do anything my DAW does (as it's the inputs and outputs of the DAW). I really like the sound of the "classic" converters I have. I have a HEDD192, DAC-1, etc. for stereo stuff, but the RADAR converters are pretty nice sounding to me.

My favorite thing about using the RADAR as the front end of the computer? Headphone mixes on the console (after the trip to RADAR and back) sound great and have no perceptible latency.

A box with 24 a/d and d/a converters, a good clock and a nice remote with metering for under 10k is still a good deal to me. Works great here every day!

-tom
Old 6th April 2005
  #16
Gear Addict
 
Flora's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
You're missing one big piece of information. If it's a question of Radar OR PTHD, the biggest determinant of how good the Radar sounds will be what console you're running it through.

-R
Hmmm - Is that really central to this discussion? I have a Neotek Elite but if we're gonna go there we might as well talk about mics, preamps, the players, the room, the songs, whos engineering etc....right? I'm trying to eliminate those variables for the sake of hearing opinions about the sound of Radar vs. the bells n whistles of Protools. I am making the assumption that Radar converters sound superior to HD.
Old 6th April 2005
  #17
Lives for gear
 
kudzu's Avatar
 

Radar Nyquist 96K/24bit is the most robust, best sounding **** out there........ period
Its up there, price wise....but u get what u pay 4..... thumbsup
Old 6th April 2005
  #18
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flora
Hmmm - Is that really central to this discussion? I have a Neotek Elite but if we're gonna go there we might as well talk about mics, preamps, the players, the room, the songs, whos engineering etc....right? I'm trying to eliminate those variables for the sake of hearing opinions about the sound of Radar vs. the bells n whistles of Protools. I am making the assumption that Radar converters sound superior to HD.
Here's your original question. Actually you seem to be asking several things at once:
______________________________
---What would be the downside of tracking on Radar for its amazing converters and then transferring to HD for common studio compatiblity, plug-ins etc. Do you think the D/As in the Radar are essential to getting the benefits of that format? thanks for any help - I'm trying to decide between getting a low end Radar system or an HD system to compliment my 2" 16 track. I have PT LE now which I could theoretically use to transfer Radar files to...
______________________________________

First of all, don't assume the Radar converters are better. They may be, but don't assume it. Besides, "better" is subjective, so you should listen to see if you actually think that's the case.

When you ask whether the D/A's are essential to the sound, then you have to ask yourself what console they are going through. If it's a POS then the greatest converters in the world won't matter. The question is, do they couple in a nice way with good euphonic results.

Then you say you are considering getting either a Radar or a PT HD system. With HD you can mix in the box. No console, no D/A's With your new Radar, since you got it instead of an HD system, you need to mix it through something (presumably not PTLe). So to compare the two you have to factor in your analog console, because without it, Radar doesn't sound like anything. So yes, it seems germane to the discussion, if not actually central.

-R









*
Old 6th April 2005
  #19
Gear Addict
 
Flora's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=RKrizman]Here's your original question. Actually you seem to be asking several things at once:
______________________________
---What would be the downside of tracking on Radar for its amazing converters and then transferring to HD for common studio compatiblity, plug-ins etc. Do you think the D/As in the Radar are essential to getting the benefits of that format? thanks for any help - I'm trying to decide between getting a low end Radar system or an HD system to compliment my 2" 16 track. I have PT LE now which I could theoretically use to transfer Radar files to...
______________________________________

First of all, don't assume the Radar converters are better. They may be, but don't assume it. Besides, "better" is subjective, so you should listen to see if you actually think that's the case.

When you ask whether the D/A's are essential to the sound, then you have to ask yourself what console they are going through. If it's a POS then the greatest converters in the world won't matter. The question is, do they couple in a nice way with good euphonic results.

Then you say you are considering getting either a Radar or a PT HD system. With HD you can mix in the box. No console, no D/A's With your new Radar, since you got it instead of an HD system, you need to mix it through something (presumably not PTLe). So to compare the two you have to factor in your analog console, because without it, Radar doesn't sound like anything. So yes, it seems germane to the discussion, if not actually central.

-R


I hear what youre saying and appreciate the insight. I have heard the Radar and when I say Im assuming theyre better, what I meant was I already know I prefer them...but I see how that could have been unclear. And yes, I am asking several things at once. Ive been trying to weigh all of the obvious and less obvious pros/cons of the 2 formats. This thread has been useful, a healthy discussion is underway here. This would all be so easy if HD sounded nearly as good as radar.
Old 6th April 2005
  #20
Lives for gear
 
blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flora
This would all be so easy if HD sounded nearly as good as radar.
Flora, you still seem to be kind of 'missing it'...

HD is software with some processing power on the DSP cards. IT HAS NO SOUND in that sense.

It can sound just like / as good / better / worse than Radar, depending on the OTHER components used, and whether you use it for mixing.

Consider this: My HD sounds as good or better than my Nyquist Radar. So does Drew's...
Old 6th April 2005
  #21
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=Flora]
Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman
This would all be so easy if HD sounded nearly as good as radar.
I guess you've missed my point. Radar by itself doesn't sound like anything. By themselves, all you can really do is compare converters. In which case you should be talking about the HD 192 box, not the PT HD software.

Here's what I think you've already decided to do without realizing it. Get a Radar and either record to it or transfer to it from your 2". Transfer to PTle for editing, if you wish, then either transfer back to Radar or play the tracks out of PTle through the Radar D/A's and, in either case, mix through your Neotek. To put it another way, use Radar as the front and back end of PTle, and basically just use the latter as an editor and playback machine. Refuse to be bothered by the fact that you're paying for a complete turnkey recording system (the Radar) just to use the converters.

Down the line, as you start to fool around with mixing ITB you may one day wake up to realize that you haven't used your Neotek for awhile, and might wonder whether you should sell it and leap into a more full-blown PT scenario. At this point, force yourself to mix through the Neootek again. Then you'll know what to do next.

-R
Old 6th April 2005
  #22
Gear Nut
 
JohnMcD's Avatar
 

I agree with RKrizman on the fact that having the Radar as complete turnkey system and to not be bothered that you're just using the converters. I know that would bother me. But from all these permutations of passes and flip flopping between systems, wouldn't it be easier to get a few 192 I/Os? Less stuff to get in the way of signal flow etc. In this case, bypasing the redundancy of PT and Radar. 2 softwares that do similiar things.

A Neotek Elite must sound fantastic by the way. I agree that you're right about getting good converters to compliment the Neotek. However, in my opinion, I don't think using a Radar just for the converters is a solution. If you had to throw down the money for Nyquist converters, why not settle for a modular Lavry? A couple Digi 192's even?

My dream setup would be a Neve 88R running thru with either Weiss or Lavry{Gold} (or even a Genex) AD's to PT.

But back to the question at hand with the Radar. It isn't a Mackie, so no corners were cut with the converters in the grand scheme of the entire product, so you are right on the assumption that Radar would be a bad ass companion to the Neotek. But my concern is the time consuming effort in jumping platforms. To be honest, I envision more time spent transfering than the effort in getting things done in a timely manner. I know, I did this before in terms of literal transfering of files.

Between Digi and iZ, I'd probably tip my hat to iZ. I have only used Digital 192 I/O, so I can't comment on the conversion from Digidesign. I have however used Classic Radar24 along wiht many other less impressive namebrand converters.

But maybe I missed something in the middle of this thread:

Quote:
For editing when needed and more tracks when needed and when the project cant afford tape and to back stuff up and to have access to a format that is more compatible with other studios i use (or at least more transportable) etc... -Flora-
What would be the point of even using PT then? (Besides for the plug ins)

In my opinion, the difference that the Radar converters will impart on your already fabulous analog sound from the Neotek will probably be minnimal at best. I would think it would be a healthy balance to a somewhat neutral Digidesign converter sound. At least that is what I've heard about the converters. But in a good light, you'd be making an orginal sound that people could get from your studio due to the Neotek and 192 I/O sound. How many notable studios have that as a combination? How about in your area?

I'm just trying to look on the brighter side of the situation. I advise the same rather than worrying over something zoomed up in a disproportionate scale.

-John
Old 6th April 2005
  #23
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

I think there must be a way to get the Radar to stream digitally into PT in real time, otherwise forget about it. Am I right about this? Does it require buying a bunch more digital interface cards or anything?

BTW, if you don't like the way the 192 sounds, you might check out the new Apogees. I still love my old AD-8000 and the new 16 channel converters are getting rave reviews from users and interface easily with a PT HD setup.

-R
Old 7th April 2005
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Syki's Avatar
 

I can transfer 8 tracks instantly from Radar to my digi 002 and back using Tascams IFTAD (Light pipe to TDIF converter)

The UFC-24 By IZ can do 24 tracks at a time instantly-(Any supported digital input signal is available through all outputs. Multiple UFC-24s can be linked for transfers of more than 24 tracks. LED status indicators display all parameters and lock state of the source signal.)

My question is (the Weiss or Lavry gold converters you speak of) do how many tracks at 1 time compared to 24plus tracksfrom the Radar?Or am I missing something here. ( I don't know about the Weiss or Lavry you speak of.)

My signal path runs( For exp: Matrix 12- Summit TPA 200b - to Radar and if I want it on pro tools {very seldom} - IFTAD from the Radar to the digi002r) or instantly from the Radar to the oo2r by pressing record on the Radar ( just using the converters) and instantly through the if tad to pro tools using the digital inputs.
Old 7th April 2005
  #25
Lives for gear
 
drew's Avatar
i think you mean realtime, not instantly.
Old 7th April 2005
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Syki's Avatar
 

Yea thats cool real time...lol hey I'm a writer producer (I leave the major stuff for the real engineers) you do get my point though thumbsup
Old 7th April 2005
  #27
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

So do you have to record on Radar first and then actually do a second pass to transfer via lightpipe into Protools, or can you just let the Radar sit there as a set of converters and record right into Protools, using Protools as the recording machine rather than Radar.

-R
Old 7th April 2005
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Syki's Avatar
 

I can let the Radar sit there and act like a converter and go direct to Pro tools.
Old 8th April 2005
  #29
Lives for gear
 
drew's Avatar
have they made it so you don't have to have the drive mounted and spinning in order for it to pass signal yet?
Old 8th April 2005
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Syki's Avatar
 

"have they made it so you don't have to have the drive mounted and spinning in order for it to pass signal yet?"

You know I never tried that. I just tolerate the most annoying thing about RADAR
The frickin noise (Louder then my Mac)
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Newkidontheblok / So Much Gear, So Little Time
10
FOURTHTUNZ / High End
65
T_R_S / So Much Gear, So Little Time
7
Newkidontheblok / High End
14
JOHN / High End
5

Forum Jump
Forum Jump