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why do the local studios suck? Digital Converters
Old 5th February 2003
  #1
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pounce's Avatar
 

why do the local studios suck?

so reading a bit today has left a question in my brain. (and i've just worked the fourth at least 17 hour workday in the last 6 days, so i'm feeling a little less cogent than usual...but there you go). so really...

why do all the local studios here suck?

your locale may be different, but i dont' know. i'm in the midwest. every local band demo and whatnot i hear from the local studios totally blows. i can't think of much at all that sounds good. in a competitive with the national stuff kind of way. always sounds muted, or with little definition, or horrible smeary effects. some of these places have much more gear than me (even though i'm a gearhound, i'm an army of one with very solid pro gear but not an endless supply of the exotic stuff). i occasionally get to use the really nice toys, but i can _honestly_ say my mixes are just plain better than the other stuff i am hearing from my fair city.

i know lack of band talent and small project budgets aren't helping. but i still think the responsibility falls on the engineers shoulders. or are we back to the every dude with a cracked copy of cubase is trying to be a "producer". jeez louise, you can have them if that's my competition. i suppose they only do projects i wouldn't do anyhow.

is it just a certain mentality? a lack of experience? am i totally wrong and am being an egostistical asshole? why all the horrible mixes. is this in any way a result of the flood of affordable recording gear making more people suddenly recording engineers?

the other engineers i meet seem to know enough technically, but don't seem to have a real good mixing style or something. one guy i know here writes in to tapeop all the time and he is the biggest ass around town i know. i also hate his band, so at least he's consistent. even people with smaller studio setups should be able to deliver the goods if they stick to the basics and do that right.

maybe it's my lack of sleep moodiness setting in. dunno. i'm actually in a good mood. and what really set me off wasn't a bad experience. on the contrary, i worked on a show last night that was wonderful. really good. and i'd be the first to complain if it wasn't. but it was great. the best i'd seen for a while, and it reminded me how the bar could be raised by a band that could deliver. with that mindset, i got thinking about how the locals stack up, and it ain't pretty. the locals just don't keep up.

there are always interesting viewpoints around here. i'd love to here good or bad input on this. this at least "feels" more like a community of peers. i dont' need a pat ourselves on the backs moment, but does this happen around you guys too? i don't know. just something i'm thinking about today. no biggie.

cheers.
paul
pounce international
Old 5th February 2003
  #2
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Kris's Avatar
It's not an easy job and there is a large/long (time consuming) learning curve. Also access to quality teachers/professionals/experts is an issue.

Just a few of MANY factors.
Old 5th February 2003
  #3
I think as long as the studios are really honest about their level of work then that's fine. But when they claim to make you sound like a really great hi-fi album (even with good musicians) and can't deliver the goods then that's wrong. I suppose a band should know better than to expect an extremely high level of quality for a cheap hourly rate too. And many times it often comes down to price for studios no matter what level the client is on. I do think that some people do happen to care a little more about the quality, on both sides of the glass, even if they are being price savvy.
Old 5th February 2003
  #4
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bjornson's Avatar
 

I dont live in columbus but a good friend of mine does .... her names Jen and she works at circa music. She used to work for me and I KNOW her work doesn't suck. I think they might be kinda expensive but thats what you charge when you don't suck. Call there and tell Jen Dave Bjornson sent ya, she'll hook you up.
Or in your up for a 3 hour drive come to pittsburgh and work here for a while we'll put you up and take GOOD care of you.
Old 6th February 2003
  #5
Gear Maniac
 
out1ear's Avatar
 

I know what you mean. I live in Atlanta.....while it has it's share of great studios(southern tracks,stonehenge,rubyred,DARP,etc) the majority of studios are pathetic. The other day I was just looking around for a cheap room with some decent gear and all I found were a bunch of guys charging 40/hr for cubase, sm57's, and blue tube mic pres.

I suddenly realized that my modest home studio blew these rooms away and I though "what is wrong with these people?"

I suppose they're more suited for artists who just a recording, not a good recording.
Old 6th February 2003
  #6
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

i found out two things the other day... first, my rates are way too low... second, my recordings are much more clear than some of the other studios in the area.

am i going to raise my rates for local stuff? probably not. although i hope what some people heard the other day who made the comment send more business my way.
Old 6th February 2003
  #7
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Meriphew's Avatar
 

Now that the cost of buying halfway decent recording gear is low enough, you have the weekend warrior types sticking their toes in the water. Sometimes they have some talent. Most of the time they're hacks.
Old 6th February 2003
  #8
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
i found out two things the other day... first, my rates are way too low... second, my recordings are much more clear than some of the other studios in the area.

am i going to raise my rates for local stuff? probably not. although i hope what some people heard the other day who made the comment send more business my way.
Tell me about it. I think that's the problem that a lot of mid-level studios are at. They can charge more and should but can't because the market won't support it. So the rates drop and start to spiral downwards. It's pretty depressing. I'm gonna do some more laundry now...

Hey, there's an idea... sell the gear and open a laundromat!

Nuk Nuk!

Seriously, the AE thing is a skill set that takes a long time to get a grip on and even more time to get really good at. After 6 years of working as an assistant and/or on my own (and many more of 4-tracking) I finally feel like I have half a clue and can live with most of what I do. That's not saying it sounds good to me, but I don't cringe when I hear it A/B'd to something on the national level.

What really kills me is that even though I charge about the same or a little more then most of the other rooms around here and my stuff sounds better (IMHO) people will still book time at the other studios. Maybe they like that recorded in a closet with lots of effects added later demoy sound. I sure as hell don't.
Old 6th February 2003
  #9
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
...I finally feel like I have half a clue and can live with most of what I do....
I only feel like I have half a clue after 40-some years!

I've had epiphany after epiphany of stunning sounds being extraordinarily simple to get when the right player, the right instrument, the right strings, the right drumheads or the right tuning is involved. This is why interning someplace that great music is being made is so important.

I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine who is one of the leading motion picture location mixers. He had just gotten off the phone with a pretty famous engineer-producer who had fallen on hard times in the record business and wanted to move into doing film work. Almost anybody can run a board. but the thing that makes a great location mixer is knowing exactly what kind of tape to use to prevent a given kind of costume from rubbing against the mike that's hidden in it. It's knowing how to suggest a better way to shoot a scene from a sound standpoint to an egomaniac director of photography.

Anyhow, the point is that most of it really does happen in front of the mikes so if the local studios suck, there's a pretty good chance that most of what they record also sucks.
Old 6th February 2003
  #10
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I only feel like I have half a clue after 40-some years!
Cool!!! You mean that sometime in the next 15 years I'll start to get the idea that I almost know what I'm doing!!!

Thanks for the heads up Bob!!

After almost 25 years (almost 30 of being in audio, but only 25 of it spent in little rooms with no windows and big speakers) I was really starting to bum out that 'cause I don't know ****... but I guess if I just stick it out a little longer..............
Old 6th February 2003
  #11
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Tim L's Avatar
 

I have two guy's on my street alone that do the single mic Cubase thing. The "work" sounds atrocious but they book more than I do because they're less expensive and they do rap... I've tried, I just can't do it.


One thing I've learned though... the minute you think you've got a clue, you're ****ed!
Old 6th February 2003
  #12
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Tim L
...the minute you think you've got a clue, you're ****ed! ...
Ain't that the truth!
Old 6th February 2003
  #13
s2n
Gear Nut
 

You live in Ohio.
Old 6th February 2003
  #14
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out1ear's Avatar
 

I think not knowing what you're doing is a great thing! everyone has to start somewhere and each mistake you make is a learning experience. There's no textbook way to approach what we all do. Expirimentation is a good thing no matter how you come about it.

It's pretty mind blowing to hear your skills progress and it's an exciting thing. I'm relatively new to recording(about 5 years) and I seem to learn something new everyday.

In the sceme of things.......I don't know ****, but I'm happy with the way my stuff sounds(for the time being atleast )

But I'm a young guy(22) and I plan on having atleast 50 more years to perfect my craft!
Old 6th February 2003
  #15
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Midlandmorgan's Avatar
 

Another Viewpoint

As a closer to 50 than 40 local guy working 40 hours a week and another 50 in a fledgling 'regional' studio, just let me say...


ouch.


Haven't heard any 'local' stuff from Ohio, but some of the best work I've heard yet as far as honesty vs pop production value have come out of local and regional studios in Texas.

And to be fair, some of the worst sounding crap ever pawned off as music has come out of national, if not world class, endeavors.

I honestly believe in my naivatte (sp?) that there is room in the market for studios such as mine, putting out products at the very best of the musicians' and my equipment's capacities will allow.

Perhaps the engineers you've heard put less than 100% into a project if they think the musicians/songs suck... if that's the case, then those people will likely fade away, allowing the more legitimate studios like yours (and hopefully mine) survive and thrive.

And, when all else fails...just read my tag line....
Old 7th February 2003
  #16
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chap's Avatar
 

This thread is why I tell people
"the only place I'm local is here"

Seems to work.
Old 8th February 2003
  #17
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Tim L

One thing I've learned though... the minute you think you've got a clue, you're ****ed!
Totally. I'm always really cautious of people that say "I'm great" because they usually suck the hardest. The people that say they aren't good are the ones that are decent and growing and learning. And yeah, I finally feel like I have half a clue. Now all I need is the other half of the first one and the other 50 and I'll be heading somewhere.

I'm still tossing that laundromat idea around.
Old 8th February 2003
  #18
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Olhsson
I only feel like I have half a clue after 40-some years!

I've had epiphany after epiphany of stunning sounds being extraordinarily simple to get when the right player, the right instrument, the right strings, the right drumheads or the right tuning is involved. This is why interning someplace that great music is being made is so important.

I had an interesting conversation with a friend of mine who is one of the leading motion picture location mixers. He had just gotten off the phone with a pretty famous engineer-producer who had fallen on hard times in the record business and wanted to move into doing film work. Almost anybody can run a board. but the thing that makes a great location mixer is knowing exactly what kind of tape to use to prevent a given kind of costume from rubbing against the mike that's hidden in it. It's knowing how to suggest a better way to shoot a scene from a sound standpoint to an egomaniac director of photography.

Anyhow, the point is that most of it really does happen in front of the mikes so if the local studios suck, there's a pretty good chance that most of what they record also sucks.
Right on!

I was reading down this thread and was going to say exactly what Bob has.

I can't remember the number of times I have heard bad tapes out of even good studio's and vice versa, purely down to the talent in front of the mic.

I personally believe that good engineers and producers can get pretty good results on almost anything when working with talent. Possibly they can also limit the damage of bad talent too. Maybe this is why the pro-tools systems are so popular with the industry.

I find two camps in the music industry these days. Those that make recordings with talented artists and can capture that, and those that record less than talented artists, throw most of it away and reconstruct using elements of the original. I don't hold anything against the latter as it is a talent I do not posess or wish to aquire, but its not a talent you see in your local studios.

In my work I come across a lot of engineers, many with quite a few years under their belts, truth is about 10% are really any good, maybe another 30% are competent, the rest I wouldn't let near a session.

regards

Roland
Old 8th February 2003
  #19
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Roland's Avatar
Right on Brother!!!

The day I go to a session and I don't learn something new, is the day I think about giving up!

Thats what I love about this job! I feel comfortable with my abilities these days, but I still find each day brings new challenges and I'm not too anal about it. Makes me laugh when I see engineers with 5 years or less experience in the business and a client list that reads like a who's who. I always reckoned that however much natural talent an engineer has it takes a good ten years just to learn the ropes.

My 2 cents worth anyhow!

Regards


Roland
Old 8th February 2003
  #20
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sonic dogg's Avatar
I gotta agree with Bob...Long ago and far away when i KNEW that all I ever wanted to do was produce records and record stuff,I worked with a partner at a 'medium end' studio..at the time it was medium end...now it would barely be a dining room home set-up....anyway...good mics and quality control of sound was the vibe...MOST of the 'talent' knew so much more about what they wanted that at some point you had to just throw up your hands and "record what you did" for them....and for the most part they left with sub-par performances of what they originally intended to have...so perhaps,in conclusion, its not the AE's who are at fault for the studio suking but simply the STAR TALENT who've paid for it to be the way they want it and since theres major stifling of a learning curve when yer a STAR it simply sucks....I think that a good producer, one whos got an interest in the engineering side of it, and knows a bit about people could make any studio set-up sound good....unfortunately theres not that many good producers and really, how hard is it to concentrate on engineering a quality AND play nursemaid to a bunch of egos on any project...
Old 8th February 2003
  #21
Quote:
Originally posted by Roland
Makes me laugh when I see engineers with 5 years or less experience in the business and a client list that reads like a who's who.
Damn, I'm going on 3x's that amount of years from humble beginnings (still at humble beginnings really....) and my client list looks like a who's who of karaoke 12 year old country wanna bees and 16 year old punk kids who think they are the next nofx.
Old 8th February 2003
  #22
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by slipperman


I also want to make audio recording a 'life experience' for everybody involved. ie. HAVE SOME FUN MAKING THE RECORD.

It's amazing how the way it feels making a record has this way of coming right across to the listener!
Old 9th February 2003
  #23
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pounce's Avatar
 

i think the real difference as evidenced by this thread is giving a ****. (in my grand naivete) i keep hoping there are people in this business that still are in it for the "right reasons". i do run into people who don't really have a passion for this, and i sometimes wonder why they got into the business. i am reminded of the difference when i run into folks really tuned into music who really keep the creative thing happening. maybe it's simply harder to groom that here in the midwest?

i am constantly suprised by how much i learn all the time, and as has been stated earlier, how easy some sessions can be when the talent is really there. stuff just seems to happen effortlessly. a different band could use the same gear in the same room and not sound the same as a band with a great set of players.

oh well, the upswing of this is that i've also been lucky to run into good engineers travelling through. they just don't seem to stay here. and the level of competition or training or something just doesn't seem to have made the local small and kinda mid sized studios competitive. we don't have any real big size studios. even the mid sized ones have some good gear, so now i dont' know if it's more a matter or engineering talent or band talent. i am happy, and not -too- suprised to see that there is such a healthy attitude about learning and caring in this forum. it's probably why we are here in the first place. i just needed to vent the first day i posted about this, mostly because i need to believe that i can do the level of work i want to. that it's not an impossible goal to do real good work for folks here in the midwest with modest gear. (by that i mean solid pro gear in a sensible signal path, but not necessarily all the exotic stuff i'd like). so the reassurance that i am not condemmed to mediocre engineering is am important one. the folks around here are not coming out with a quality of engineered stuff i am comfortable with, so i just have to buck up and continue to follow my ears and heart and make the best i can so that at least my work doesn't constantly sound like some damn "demo".
Old 9th February 2003
  #24
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by pounce
i think the real difference as evidenced by this thread is giving a ****. (in my grand naivete) i keep hoping there are people in this business that still are in it for the "right reasons". i do run into people who don't really have a passion for this, and i sometimes wonder why they got into the business. i am reminded of the difference when i run into folks really tuned into music who really keep the creative thing happening. maybe it's simply harder to groom that here in the midwest?

i am constantly suprised by how much i learn all the time, and as has been stated earlier, how easy some sessions can be when the talent is really there. stuff just seems to happen effortlessly. a different band could use the same gear in the same room and not sound the same as a band with a great set of players.
I think that the engineers you meet with 20+ years in the business that don't seem to give a ****, probably used too. But I can understand why they become that way. Sitting in a darkened room for all those years, working with more often than not indifferent talent for 15 hours a day, then being told by so called indifferent talent that the reason the tape doesn't sound good is their lack of skill as an engineer, not a lack of talent in front of the mic!

Things I have learnt in my 24 years in the business.

1. Sometimes a turd is a turd, learn to recognize it, do your best, but don't beat yourself up over it.

2. Some clients will never be satisfied even if its great.

3. Doesn't matter what you have in the rack, if you are good at your job and the talent is there you can make it happen on a Mackie with an Adat and a few Shures.

4. Getting a big warm sound doesn't rely on having a rack full of vintage valve boxes and analogue tape!

5. Good talent is easy to record.

6. Spending 15 hours a day recording gets counter productive, Even the best talent only has about 6 hours creative ability in a day.

7. When a performer tells you after the third take he can get it better, keep that take as you are on the downward hill.

8. Try and learn something new every day.

9. Always have a back-up plan if you want to experiment.

10. I have never yet worked with a great musician who didn't have a great sound, so capturing that is both flattering to them and beneficial to the project (can also get you more work).

11. Don't waste time experimenting if the players are ready to go. Nothing more frustrating from a musicians point of view than waiting for the engineer to compare the esoteric qualities of different Oxygen free cables. (Truly I know a very well known engineer guilty of this one!)

I'm sure there are many others but these imediately sprung to mind.

Regards


Roland
Old 9th February 2003
  #25
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davemc's Avatar
 

Most of us got into the industry as we enjoy music.
Its a whole lot easier to setup a studio or a band today then it was when I started years ago. Back then midi was brand new, I dreamed of owning a 16-24 track recorder and was thrilled to get a 4 track cassette tape. Studios where 5-10 times more expensive for somewhere 24 tracks and up. They had little editing so you would have to learn your parts or be down thousands of $$'s quickly. Although you really had to be signed to afford to record.

Now even the smallest mackie/adat studio can turn out quality work, although now a lot of musicians are not as skilled, the AE are now expected to polish that turd after only a few takes.

There has always been crap bands out there, its just a lot easier for them to record now. The expectation level of young bands that come through is amazing, somehow it just does not click for a lot of them. How you sound is what will get recorded. Somehow they think you wave a magic wand and they're bad playing will just be edited away in a few seconds.
Then there are all those digital CD quality studios run by a full-qualified engineer straight form SAE last month. The problem is that the more services available the cheaper people expect them because of competition, how are you going to compete with a studio at the back of someone's house running at US$8/hour.
You can't.

So back to the start you got into this to record music you personally like, So try and do more. Although to make money out of the studio you will sometimes have to do work you should not be doing. So just grit your teeth and think of the money, and do not ask the drummer who keeps time in the band as you know the answer will be "I just follow the guitarist".
I also find it hard not to give band constructive help, although as a friend pointed out to me. They think there perfect, you are the one that has faults doubting there perfection.
Old 9th February 2003
  #26
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by pounce

... i keep hoping there are people in this business that still are in it for the "right reasons"...
I think you have to be in this business for the love of the craft and the people. It certainly isn't about the money or getting laid although people seem to have have amazing fantasies looking at us from the outside!

Speaking for myself, I'm a real junkie for musical character. I'd much rather see people banging on pots and pans in front of the microphone than using the latest "cool" gear. "As good as" is another big trap. I'd add a number 12 to Roland's list which is that I like to always throw some kind of wild-card in. This forces me to learn and to make a decision about whether or not at least one aspect of the project is working. It keeps me objective and off auto-pilot.

The folks at the labels are also generally in it for the right reasons. They are struggling with a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation of immense proportions now that Madison Avenue has clamped down on what you can get on the air and Wall Street has clamped down on label management.

I also make sure that I'm always working on at least one or two things that I love even if it means doing it practically for free. It keeps the fire going in the furnace.
Old 10th February 2003
  #27
Here for the gear
 

i suck

and I know it. I don't have big gear, I don't have my own uber studio. I know I suck, and I want to learn more. I don't care
about the money, I don't care about getting my name out there. I want
to make music, good music. I know next to nothing, I have technical
problems with my setup, I have for years. I nmy opinion the problem
is that technology is getting cheaper and cheaper. In the 'old days',
it took a good amount of cash to a: build, b: get into a good studio. Then you throw producer fees on, and AE fees on. Now you're
looking at several hundred an hour...it was usually a turn off for
'bad' talent. Now though, anyone can go spend 2k and get 'decent' gear. Which doesn't help at all. Now the same ****ty talent can
afford the guy with the cubase rig. And those guys will make money. because the market will bear it. Most 'musicians' I know cannot
afford, without 'being signed' to go, on their own, to a 'reputable'
studio and do their thing. Most 'musicians' I know can barely
afford coffee at Denny's.

Me? I still try and learn. I will continue forward with my cubase
rig(if i can get it working correctly). I will continue to write
music for me, and record music for people who want to be recorded. I
make no claims of greatness. Why lie? I suck, but I know it...and I go forward.


t
Old 10th February 2003
  #28
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

Getting back to the question, we can sum it up like this:

A. The buy in price of having a studio is lower thus effecting;
1. The hourly, daily, weekly rates charged by studios
2. The formation of AEs doesn't follow the traditional path of science student A/V club musica-phile or musician interning in a place where music and other things are being recorded then becoming an assistant engineer who's actually allowed to record things then being trusted enough psychologically, administratively and technically to follow a project on his own then maybe being able to rub 2 sticks together and start his own studio or become a wandering AE.
3. Musicians buying their own gear.

Without a lot of explaination I would like to say that it looks like the same old crap shoot to me but there are a lot more players.

Musicians are not always well informed as to which studios are the quality studios and musicians book their own demos. How much? How many tracks? What kind of board? The problem these days is that there's so much for the musician to read that he sometimes forgets he's a musician and thinks he's an AE, which he's not, because he's well read. As with all other things, knowing this (how to find a good studio) takes experience. Musicianship has also undergone a similar change as that of the studio (see above, outline subject A, replace the word AE or studio with the word musician), modern technologoes have made music makers of non-musicians (not always bad). Traditionally a musician might have found a good studio through playing with someone else, Now it doesn't seem as likely.
There is really a lot of music going on, maybe too much, there are even those who make music as a type of gambling investment instead of for the love of music. Out of all this music, how much of it can be really good? Of that amount how much of that will find it's way to a good recordist? Of that amount how much will find its way to the public? There are many more variables.
It's crappy everywhere, saturated. The law of percentage that rules this relationship between music, the musician, the recordist, the distribution and the market and quality is still in effect but has overblown its limits, the proverbial cup has runneth over.
Yet some of us are still working in or have good places and others are planning them. Some are starting their careers as interns in a quality facility and some are buying a PC with a sound card, it's not to say that the latter won't receive a proper education but it will probably take longer and be more painful.
Cheers to all who give it a go!
Old 11th February 2003
  #29
Lives for gear
 
Fibes's Avatar
 

Audio engineering is full of toadies and wannabees, that's why these boards are so popular.

The local **** in "tow-town" (columbus, OH) sounds crappy because you are in the center of the ripples. There are plenty other cities that have that same crap factor. I used to love playing at bernie's and a few of those other joints around town because the local bands always had some serious **** going on. It's too bad that they aren't going to the right places to record it.

Damn i miss the late little John (the dwarf) and Batman (the drunk homeless guy). Columbus is a cool town except for the tow trucks. We had people give blood the day after our show so they could help get our van out of the pound. that's a cool town.
Old 11th February 2003
  #30
Lives for gear
 
Tim L's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
... And yeah, I finally feel like I have half a clue. Now all I need is the other half of the first one and the other 50 and I'll be heading somewhere.
You and me both...
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