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Can your DAW do this? (For frustrated Mixers)
Old 18th January 2003
  #31
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Quote:
There's no contradiction. Erik, Nika and GM are probably referring to HD.
If it's the same mixer at low track counts, then yes, there is a bit of a contradiction.

Quote:
And once again, even if one person finds the PT bus to be "correct" (which is somewhat measurable), someone else may still prefer the sound of another, less accurate system. Such as Paris being pushed into non-linearity.-R
Have you all ever seen the ads for the Mutsibishi 32-track digital machine from back when, endorsed by George Martin?

Digital BS has been bandied about for decades now. Ten and even twenty years ago, it was already supposedly perfect.

I haven't seen any proof anywhere that ProTools has a more accurate sound than Paris.

And what is the point, aside from swaying opinions?

If a working mixer like Brian T thinks Paris sounds more musical than PT, of what use is it to throw him some pseudo-scientific hogwash that PT is "correct" or "more accurate"? It's one thing to shovel that stuff to the home studio weekend warriors choosing what DAW to buy and what mic pre sounds best for under $500. It's quite another to dollop a helping of it to a pro that mixes music for a living.

heh
Old 19th January 2003
  #32
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon


I haven't seen any proof anywhere that ProTools has a more accurate sound than Paris.

And what is the point, aside from swaying opinions?

If a working mixer like Brian T thinks Paris sounds more musical than PT, of what use is it to throw him some pseudo-scientific hogwash that PT is "correct" or "more accurate"? It's one thing to shovel that stuff to the home studio weekend warriors choosing what DAW to buy and what mic pre sounds best for under $500. It's quite another to dollop a helping of it to a pro that mixes music for a living.

heh
I'm sure Brian can hold up his end of the discussion without you trivializing my comments. I'm sorry if you think I'm engaging in "pseudo-scientific hogwash". I find it incredible that you have such a high opinion of yourself that you continually insult anyone who doesn't agree with you. (In Jules' livingroom, no less)

Read the discussion. BT (not me)describes pushing Paris into non-linearity and enjoying the resulting sound. Non-linearity means that there is a less accurate representation of the sound. Not that that's a bad thing--in fact, it seems to be the appeal of the platform. You know, like transformers. Coloration. It's a beautiful thing.

Meanwhile, I've done his test and found the PT bus to be fairly durable. Brian modified his original position to allow for my conclusions, and is going to check things out further. It's a lively discussion among people with open minds for whom the results matter. Please don't piss in the pool.

Not being a Paris user, I haven't done any comparisons. But as far as PT's accuracy is concerned, not only did I do the test BT recommended, but I've also sent you some files which I feel demonstrate the integrity of the math in PT faders. I'm not going to hassle you about listening to them, because you're a busy guy. Fine. But if you don't, please at least allow me the courtesy of discussing this stuff with other people who may be interested in finding out what's really up.

Did I really read that you've never even used HD? Maybe you should temper your comments until you do.

-R
Old 19th January 2003
  #33
Ted
Gear Maniac
 

Brian,

That edge you're hearing is a bump in the midrange on the 192s. HD does sound better but I still don't like the edge you're talking about. It makes it a bit unnatural at the summing point on certain program material. I've found the 1-AD8KSE I kept in the rack to be more laid back and natural. When I get up and going I will do some experimenting with your ideas using the 9098i, Radar 24, & HD. Thanks for the insights.

Thanks,
Ted.
Old 19th January 2003
  #34
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
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Dear Rick,

I think we're all for open discussion here and you'll note that the moderators here delete posts very rarely (thanks in great part to the relative lack of trolling and ad hominum attacks here on GS).

The statements comparing PT favorably to Paris deserved comment because, one, the person posting them had never listened to Paris, and two, any post saying that a current DAW is perfect will look pretty short-sighted 3 years from now...it's just common sense.

About Jules...I'm here at his invite and you can be sure that he will let me know off-line if there's a real problem.

If I wrote that I've never heard HD, that was my mistake. A few months ago, several dozen engineers and I spend a day doing an HD shootout involving four independent HD systems (for more info, do a search on the High End forum here or on www.recording.org).

On the 17th, I had hoped to listen to your CD, but the session overran and we only had an hour to reset the console and prepare before the next project began. Kent, a fellow GS member who visited that day, was there -- and he very kindly lent the client a MIDI interface for the session. BTW, Kent rocks! We may see him assisting and engineering here soon.





Dear Erik,

It seems there is a difference between :

saying that the PT mix bus is broken, which I haven't heard anyone say...

saying that it's definitely open to improvement for music mixing, which is probably the position of most folks, including the many who prefer to sum in analog...

saying that it's indistinguishable from an SSL mix buss, which Digi tried to convince us of a couple years ago...

and saying that it's mathematically correct/accurate, which goes against the perception of many users.

Perhaps our ears perceive things beyond your measurements, perhaps the summing isn't as accurate as it needs to be, or perhaps "accurate" doesn't sound good to many folks. Is it the latter that you believe?

Old 20th January 2003
  #35
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
It still surprises me that anybody would trust anything digi says at this point.

They tried to prove the old mixbuss had no problems. This was bull.

The tried to make people think 888's were worth the money. They weren't.

Everybody uses someone elses plug-ins over the ones digi makes.
Wether it's compressors, eq's or reverbs etc.

So, in short, they can't produce a compressor, eq or reverb for a product they designed that's worth a crap.

Same goes for their converters.

And you trust the software they designed, that you're using to mix with is at the top of the game?


Digi is a company that produces mediocre products. Accept it.

Excuse me, can you pass the Kool-Aid please?
Old 20th January 2003
  #36
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon
Brian, I agree with your points.

I haven't heard HD yet but wouldn't be surprised if you and others are hearing a difference.
Jon,
Sorry if I mistakenly said you have never heard HD, but it was your words. That's why I've been astounded that you should weigh in so categorically on the subject.
-R
Old 20th January 2003
  #37
Lives for gear
 
RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by jon


The statements comparing PT favorably to Paris deserved comment because, one, the person posting them had never listened to Paris, and two, any post saying that a current DAW is perfect will look pretty short-sighted 3 years from now...it's just common sense.


Who was comparing PT favorably to Paris? If you mean me, I have in fact listened to Paris. And my point was simply that it's possible for PT to be more accurate and Paris to sound better. Just like any other piece of gear.

I don't think anybody has characterized any current DAW as "perfect". Accurate math ain't everything.

-R
Old 20th January 2003
  #38
jon
Capitol Studios Paris
 
jon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by RKrizman
Jon,
Sorry if I mistakenly said you have never heard HD, but it was your words.-R
You're right. I brain farted while posting that.
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