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How do you guys deal with plug-in delay
Old 22nd December 2002
  #1
Gear Head
 

How do you guys deal with plug-in delay

This is a subject that has really become a hang up for me.

We all know that when working digital in PT and adding a plug-in on a channel will delay the sound a couple of samples.
Say we send a snaredrum on to two busses and add a compressor to one of the channels, they start to phase, add two more effects and they will start to flam, its easy to see that when we done with a whole mix, adding different effects on the channels, nothing will be in time, we will have lost the timing in the music.

Now my question: How do you deal with that? Do you pick up your calculator and timeadjust all channels so they are in time again?
Or do you move the audiotrack the number of samples the plug-in has pushed the sound?
Or do you simple just dont do anything cuz its such a small different in time and noone will probably notice?

/Mandiil
Old 22nd December 2002
  #2
Re Pro Tools:

Here's the thing... it's MOST troublesome to folks dealing with multi mic / live drum kit recordings, where phase relationship is crucial.

Midi folks who chirp - 'its not a problem for me!" are a drag. If it dont bug ya "BUTT OUT!" madd

Anyhow....

I use Time Adjuster plug in

I use it to make all the sample delays in the kit channels the same figure..

I use it on bass to keep the same (or change) the phase relationship on Amp & DI signals.

I dont use busses...(much)
Old 22nd December 2002
  #3
Re: How do you guys deal with plug-in delay

Quote:
Originally posted by mandiil
This is a subject that has really become a hang up for me.

We all know that when working digital in PT and adding a plug-in on a channel will delay the sound a couple of samples.
Say we send a snaredrum on to two busses and add a compressor to one of the channels, they start to phase, add two more effects and they will start to flam, its easy to see that when we done with a whole mix, adding different effects on the channels, nothing will be in time, we will have lost the timing in the music.

Now my question: How do you deal with that? Do you pick up your calculator and timeadjust all channels so they are in time again?
Or do you move the audiotrack the number of samples the plug-in has pushed the sound?
Or do you simple just dont do anything cuz its such a small different in time and noone will probably notice?

/Mandiil
Yeah I have a nice,big,beautiful calculator near by!!!

Also a cheat sheet with every possible combination(auxes pre/post,aux send through aux input..blah,blah,blah).

Working with HD helps(lots of extra tracks for those sends and mults).

Did you say its no big deal?(77 samples at 44.1k is a big deal!!!)

Its a bitch I know(copying and shifting tracks), but right now its the only way.grudge
Old 23rd December 2002
  #4
There is no TimeAdjuster for LE right?

What do you guys do? If the track is 77 samples delayed, you just nudge it 77 samples before it's original time? How do I do this if the nudge only goes 'till 1ms?
Old 23rd December 2002
  #5
Gear Maniac
 
RSMITH123's Avatar
 

Re: Re: How do you guys deal with plug-in delay

Quote:
Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Also a cheat sheet with every possible combination(auxes pre/post,aux send through aux input..blah,blah,blah).
Any chance of you posting or emailing a copy of the "cheat sheet"?
Old 23rd December 2002
  #6
no ssl yet
Guest
My new workaround (Never done yet but Just thought of)

Use Time Adjuster. Then add adjustment for a bus based bounce (when the track is processed where it needs to be).

Bounce to another track. And make the first track inactive with inserts in place.

This way you have your processing and you can always return to your original
Old 24th December 2002
  #7
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

wanna have the "cheat sheet" as well .

jeronimo you have to switch from hh.mm.ss to samples .
the spot function can do it as well .
[ dont know bout LE ??? ]

Old 24th December 2002
  #8
Re: Re: Re: How do you guys deal with plug-in delay

Quote:
Originally posted by RSMITH123
Any chance of you posting or emailing a copy of the "cheat sheet"?
I got the cheat sheet of the DUC.

Just do a search on plug-in delay.

The only trick is HD, the higher the sample rates the less the delay.

If you guys have trouble finding it on the DUC, I will gladly post it.

Good Luck.
Old 26th December 2002
  #9
Gear Head
 

Well, yes you can use the same plug-in on every track, but for me that is not an option since my system fast would be maxed out in a mix.
Btw, thanks for all respons

/M
Old 26th December 2002
  #10
C'mon... there might be a fix for that...
Old 26th December 2002
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Mike Jasper's Avatar
Plug-in delay on Digi001 using Pro Tools LE

For the most part, there isn't any plug-in delay using Pro Tools LE on a Digi 001. Unless, of course, you're actually using delay.

There are a few plugins that add some delay, but they tend to be two-buss limiters. Here's what Digi says at its site:

Quote:
Most RTAS plug-ins have zero delay. However, some plug-ins (such as those with lookahead like Maxim or L1), add delay.

It is important to realize, however, that Pro Tools LE always has a minimum through delay based on the H/W Buffer Size (setups>Hardware window). This setting is independent of any plug-ins and adding plug-ins does not necessarily add any additional delay above the H/W buffer value (because Pro Tools LE is a single processor system).

On the other hand, if the algorithm needs to buffer up many samples before it can do processing (e.g., DINR) or needs to do lookahead (Maxim, L1), then it will add delay and this delay will NOT be compensated for.

Practically speaking, Pro Tools LE does NOT have delay compensation, although in many case the plug-in delay will be zero and therefore compensation won't be necessary.
I don't entirely get the H/W Buffer size delay. I do get that if it's set at 256, say, and is throughout the recording, then it's not going to make any difference at all, since every track will have the same amount of delay. But if you record tracks with the buffer set at 128, then get a Hardware Buffer error and increase the size to 512, will that make a difference?

I don't know.

Jasper
Old 26th December 2002
  #12
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 

My cheatsheet is my "ears"... I don't really care what's correct... I care what sounds good. That being said, I cntl click to at least know what up with the plug in delays... the a/d d/a conversion delays I do my ear.
Old 26th December 2002
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Mike Jasper's Avatar
Yeah, that would be my take on hardware buffer too. Of course, I'm just quoting the Digi company line above, so I feel compelled to add...

I know there's plug-in delay with Altiverb. Big enough to hear and the plug-in will tell you how much delay there is. The quote from Digi above was taken on August, 2002, so maybe they didn't consider Altiverb then.

Jasper
Old 27th December 2002
  #14
Maybe it's just me... but today I tried this:
I found out the delay in samples, moved the track ahead by the same amount of samples (snare track w/ 4 plugs).
And then... the snare started to sound punchy... maybe was some... psychoacoustics... but... I love the way it sounds now...
Old 27th December 2002
  #15
Quote:
Originally posted by e-cue
My cheatsheet is my "ears"... I don't really care what's correct... I care what sounds good. That being said, I cntl click to at least know what up with the plug in delays... the a/d d/a conversion delays I do my ear.
I used to do this by my ears, but I found out that at different sections it would sound stronger, and when you have so many tracks to deal with when doing ad/da and AES conversions it gets sick.
Old 27th December 2002
  #16
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

PT-le doesn't have the basic interchannel delay and headroom problems a TDM system has although you need to watch out for things like "look-ahead" limiters that have delay built it.
Old 27th December 2002
  #17
Gear Addict
 

Thanks, Posterchild for running that test. I'm using DP, and I assume it behaves more like PTLE, since both are native systems, than TDM systems. Someone let me know if I'm wrong. Thanks again.
Old 27th December 2002
  #18
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

and again , thrills the man ...

"by ears" ... 1 sample forward , 1 sample back ... why would you do that ??? ( takes forever )

why would i spend hours to get some good takes and then screw em up again in fact of plugin delays , i move the tracks , EVERYTIME .
maybe thats the only advantage of having a tiny pt .
having access to 100s of plugs and i would probably end up moving tracks all day long .

heh

hey thrill i did a search , xxxxx matches , but couldnt find the " interresting stuff " ... your sheet would be more then welcome .

thx
Old 27th December 2002
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
cram's Avatar
 

Ummm, I use PARIS, what is this 'plug-in-delay' that you speak of?

Ducking-and-Running...

grggt heh fuuck
Old 27th December 2002
  #20
Lives for gear
 
e-cue's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by cram
Ummm, I use PARIS, what is this 'plug-in-delay' that you speak of?

Ducking-and-Running...
Yeah, if I was on a Paris, I wouldn't use any of those crappy plug in's either.

Sidenote: Notice my # of posts...(888 at time of post)

I fear by the time these DAW's get auto delay compensation under control, the continents will have drifted back together again, forming New Pangaea.
Old 27th December 2002
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
cram's Avatar
 

888! The number of the beast!
Old 28th December 2002
  #22
Ok for everyone that asked, here is the "cheat"sheet I use to calculate the delays in PT(Mixplus). For HD, some of the numbers are different(I'll try to update it later).

Again I wish I could take credit for it(the list was posted by Steve Macmillan, so you know its legit!!).heh

I hope someone gets something out of it.


Peace.


audio out thru a buss to an aux is 6 samples

audio out thru a buss, recorded on a track is 10 samples

audio out thru a buss to an aux, thru a buss to an aux is 12 samples

audio out thru a buss to an aux, thru a buss, recorded on a track is 16 samples

audio out thru a pre send to an aux is 6 samples

audio out thru a post send to an aux is 10 samples

audio out thru an analog output, thru an analog input, to an aux is 77 samples

audio out thru an analog output, thru an analog input, recorded on a track is 81 samples

audio out thru a post send to an analog output, thru an analog input, to an aux is 81 samples

audio out thru a post send to an analog output, thru an analog input, recorded on a track is 85 samples

master faders across busses or outputs add no delay
Old 28th December 2002
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Mike Jasper's Avatar
You would think I would know better by now not to trust anything I read on the DUC.

In general, most RTAS plugins have no delay. But some do. I just tested my Waves/Rennaisance plugs and here's what I found:

LI limiter - 64 samples
RenVox and RenComp - 64
C1-Comp-Gate - 340
C1-Sidechain - 340
C4 - 64
L1- 64
Ren DeEsser - 65
Ultra Pitch Shift - 8154-8198

Yeah. I tested Ren DeEsser twice and got 65 rather than 64. Beats me. All tests were run at 24-bit, 44.1 and what I did was run a snare sample audio track out to bus 1&2, then recorded another audio track using bus 1&2 as the input.

The other Waves plugs showed no delay whatsoever. I would strongly suggest you run your own tests so you'll know for sure.

Jasper
PS -- This is for PTLE using a Digi 001. Audio out to a buss produced ZERO delay.
Old 28th December 2002
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Zep Dude's Avatar
 

Here's a down and dirty method for lining up NON PHASE LOCKED tracks. Delay grouping.

You may find that depending on how you're processing them, groups of tracks fall into certain delay ranges -drums/bass one group, brass/vox/guitar another group, items with live inserts to analog another group etc.

Create stereo aux's for say 0-80smpls, 80-160smpls, 160-240smpls or however you like and then put the time adjusters here to line things up. Of course you'll still want to do exact alignment of phase locked tracks like drums but this method will get the overall song in the general ballpark and save a lot of dsp worth of time adjusters. If you end up adding some plugins to a track and increasing it's delay, just change it's ouput assignemt to the correct aux.

Zep
MajesticMusic.com
Old 14th March 2003
  #25
Gear Head
 
rnt_u_listnng's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Mike Jasper
In general, most RTAS plugins have no delay. But some do. I just tested my Waves/Rennaisance plugs and here's what I found:

LI limiter - 64 samples
RenVox and RenComp - 64
C1-Comp-Gate - 340
C1-Sidechain - 340
C4 - 64
L1- 64
Ren DeEsser - 65
Ultra Pitch Shift - 8154-8198
Mike,

I just ran these tests for PT6 on an 001 with the Waves 4 and Autotune 3.2. These are the results I obtained:

Autotune 630 Samples
Q10, RBass, REQ6 - 0 Samples
TrueVerb - 0 Samples
RenVerb - 412 Samples
RChannel - 65 Samples
RComp - 64 Samples
C4 - 66 Samples
Metaflanger - 4 Samples
C1 Comp-sc - 340 Samples

For each of the verbs and flanger, I set delays/predelays to minimum in the setup and recorded the first visible wave location. RenVerb was in Hall setup.

I also ran some tests with the aux busses. Using the sine wave test described, I used a send, pre fader to send the signal to another aux channel (Aux2) and from there to a track for recording. I also repeated this test by daisy-chaining multiple auxes together using the busses always ending in a recorded track. That is the output from Aux 2 was sent via bus to the input for Aux 3 and from there to the input to Aux 4 and then to a track for recording. The origination signal was always sent to Aux 2 via a prefader send. I am certain this isn't very clear.

Anyway, I chained together as many as four aux channels and never received any delay in the signal. I think this is quite different from the results you received.

This is great information to know. I also went out of my system via S/PDIF to a HEDD and back in via S/PDIF. The delay was 1037 Samples! This amount of change makes a huge difference in the sound if not adjusted.

Old 14th March 2003
  #26
Gear Nut
 

I attended one of the PT6 demos thrown by Digi in my area and you can be sure that the first question I asked was "WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO DO AUTO-DELAY COMPENSATION FOR TDM" . The digi guy swore to me that it was under consideration, but it would of course require a complete rewrite of the mixer to be possible. I guess we can dream
Old 15th March 2003
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Mike Jasper's Avatar
You did good, man. It's a question that keeps needing to be asked.

Jasper
Old 15th March 2003
  #28
Yep! Keep fighting the good fight!

A packed demo room at trade show is where Digi should hear what we want from their system.

Digi have yet to fully meet the rock n roll engineers needs and that is depressing.

lack of Auto delay compensation and Sends on the fly

make real "vibe killers"
Old 15th March 2003
  #29
Gear Nut
 
heartsoffire's Avatar
 

While this solution is a PAIN for most of us, I have found if I AudioSuite most of the plugs, that there is no delay. AudioSuite does not institute any delay when it processes the track.

What I've been doing lately is mixing with the RTAS plugs to get as close to the sound I want, then AudioSuite things like the Bass, drums, and maybe guitars. This also gives me more CPU to deal with vocals and BGV's where latency isn't nearly as obvious.
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