The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
rec BIG GTR (no u cant di it!)
Old 20th December 2002
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
vsl666's Avatar
 

rec BIG GTR (no u cant di it!)

dear sirs/madams

i have recentley decided to play all my gtr parts going thro a uni vibe and then turning my amp up to 12 ..coz it err 2 louder innit ?

this is i have discovered a find thing to do but unfortunaTLEYgrudge
the mic amps and mics i have at my disposal seem to think otherwise...i cant record it well with the chains i have

soooo this is bad news coz i need a new chain but good news for the same reason...

i have but a 57 on but it sounds awful
my elux 251 seems not really that impressed
aND THE V76/72'S AT MY DISPOSAL DISTORT#
no variation i have seems not to distort unless i put the mic
20 feet away ..

will a royer be ok or will i just break the ribbon ?
will a viper distort as well ?
what will work well and make the sound of the bassmans jenson blues come out of my speakerrs ?

any advice appreciated ...

ps hi all how ya doin .. bit buissey at present (with aformentioned gtrs)



yuktyy
fuuck
Old 20th December 2002
  #2
Jax
Lives for gear
 

Turn it down a little. Does anyobdy here really try to record with say, a marhsall stack completely wide open? What's the point?
Old 20th December 2002
  #3
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
Turn it down a little. Does anyobdy here really try to record with say, a marhsall stack completely wide open? What's the point?
Moving air, you gotta move air (via the speakers that is). It is the reason why I prefer lower wattage cabinets (Vintage 30s come to mind or the 25W Greenbacks), because they physically move more. I'm using an ENGL Savage 120 amp which is about twice as loud as the dual Rectum Fryer (which is on as well for the low end) and you wont be able to go into the live room when it's blasting away, even with shooting headphones on people get sick to their stomach in there, but to me it makes all the difference.

The Royer R-121 is about an inch and a half from the center of the speaker and it sounds great. Another cool mic for cleaner stuff is the GrooveTubes AM62 (I think it's called AM67 now). Preamp is either the Chandler EMI stereo or most likely the Crane Song Spider (love that tape knob).
Old 20th December 2002
  #4
Lives for gear
 
sonic dogg's Avatar
well....yeah....and MW has never recorded loud guitars.....ever....glad yer back.....
Old 20th December 2002
  #5
Jax
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener
The Royer R-121 is about an inch and a half from the center of the speaker and it sounds great. Another cool mic for cleaner stuff is the GrooveTubes AM62 (I think it's called AM67 now). Preamp is either the Chandler EMI stereo or most likely the Crane Song Spider (love that tape knob).
Ok I gotta move air (was that me? oop... excuse me heh).

I've been getting away with recording bass and drums with scratch guitars first then o-dubbing real guitars, but still never extremely loud. The line above about putting Royers into that environment made me gasp I must still be afraid of these mics because I wouldn't think to put them into the meltdown zones like that. If it can be done without regularly having to ship them out for new ribbons I'm there. Are your mics getting thrashed that way?
Old 20th December 2002
  #6
Gear Guru
 
Drumsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
Turn it down a little. Does anyobdy here really try to record with say, a marhsall stack completely wide open? What's the point?
Because that's the tone you want or need at that given point.
Old 20th December 2002
  #7
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
. . . Are your mics getting thrashed that way?
Not at all. Before I had the 121s I used Fostex M11RP ribbon mics. They kinda look like an old AKG D12 almost a square block. With those mics I had to "subscribe" to ribbons. I have five of those and kept rotating them between the studio and Fostex for new ribbons. I still use them for room mics.

No problem with the Royers. They take off that ugly super high end (created by the output transformer in amps, and which you hear if you slightly cover your ears with a finger) and make it all smooth and fat. Also if you put them that close, you don't get much room from the other side (fig 8). I have also tried using the R121 from the backside, but mainly for acoustic guitar. It's a little brighter that way but it can't stand as much level for some reason.



The SM7 got replaced by another R121 during recording and the TLM103 didn't work out at all. I have yet to find a good application for that mic (ebay, maybe)
Old 20th December 2002
  #8
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 

Damn Michael . . . I popped a ribbon in one of my Royers. Good for you to be able to pull that off. Rick at Royer was a great guy to deal with. I also had an outside engineer do "something" to my Stereo Royer and again, Rick took care of things quickly and with class.

We never did figure out what happened to the 121 (or the Stereo mic for that matter) as they never saw the kind of volume or rush of air that should make them pop. Never saw phantom or any sort of 'patch in' pops. All the pres are in order as I had them checked.

We wondered if the engineer dropped the Stereo mic . . but there were no marks etc. . . . unless he dropped it on the carpet. I use the Stereo for OHs sometimes . . . so it has never seen amp volume.

Anyway . . they got them both back to spec.

They are GREAT mics aren't they? I know Jules and I used to talk about the Stereo mic a couple of years ago. I believe he has one as well.
Old 20th December 2002
  #9
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Did it pop because of high levels? I can't really imagine, if you heard the power it takes from the ENGL. Jules you got the ENGL too, are you using the 121 on it?

Yeah, I want to check out that Royer stereo mic, heard a lot of great stuff about it.

Alpha, can you hear me? Didn't you subjet the 121 to massive levels as well?
Old 20th December 2002
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener
Yeah, I want to check out that Royer stereo mic, heard a lot of great stuff about it.

Alpha, can you hear me? Didn't you subjet the 121 to massive levels as well?
I have put it in front of some loud ass amps . . . no problems. Not as loud as you are talking . . I don't think.
Old 20th December 2002
  #11
Gear Addict
 
mdbeh's Avatar
 

I've got a Sank-modded Beyer 160 w/RCA ribbon. It sounds really nice on guitars, but I've been afraid to shove it in too close on the big guys. Sounds sweet on my Fenders and Emery, though.

I've gotta check out an R121 some time.
Old 20th December 2002
  #12
Jax
Lives for gear
 

Thanks, Michael. The pics tell it like it is. I used to fear putting one of my 121's in front of the kick until fellow GSz assured me it was ok, and could even be good (lol). Loud Amps have been the last horizon for the Royers but now I'll give them a shot of real level without trepidation.

My git player's Pod Spider doesn't sound that great at any level, but we have a 1x15 Marshall lead that has some attitude and I'll let it fly next time. Something about single speaker amps, I guess. My old ('65?) 1x15, 15 watt Fender Musicmaster Bass amp has more personality than most Marshalls that ever roll in. Some guitar tech told me that Clapton used to use one of these.
Old 21st December 2002
  #13
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
Thanks, Michael. The pics tell it like it is. I used to fear putting one of my 121's in front of the kick until fellow GSz assured me it was ok, and could even be good (lol). Loud Amps have been the last horizon for the Royers but now I'll give them a shot of real level without trepidation.
I'm kind of in a different situation then you. I'm a bit intimidated after sending them back once. I know, next time . . . I'm paying! Got my one free ribbon.

Funny thing is . . . . Rick at Royer said, he had never seen a ribbon "disappear" like the one in my Stereo Royer. He said there was nothing left of the ribbon and said everyone was laughing about it! I KNOW he can't wait to see what I send him next time! lol

Hell I REALLY take care of my stuff . . . . I have no idea what happned to it. I use the Stereo for OHs and I had used it a couple of times to record a acoustic guitar, singer and room mics.

A couple of times I used it as a hammer to nail some nails and once as a plumbing tool . . but that shouldn't hurt it!
Old 21st December 2002
  #14
Jax
Lives for gear
 

You didn't put your 121 too close to anything strongly magnetic, did you? If so, there might be a little metal strip that was once the ear of that mic stuck to something. I'm kidding, but I guess it could happen.
Old 21st December 2002
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
You didn't put your 121 too close to anything strongly magnetic, did you? If so, there might be a little metal strip that was once the ear of that mic stuck to something. I'm kidding, but I guess it could happen.
I asked him about that type thing (magnetic problems)
He said it was not a concern to the mics.
Old 21st December 2002
  #16
Jax
Lives for gear
 

I don't know why he told you that 'cos in the manual, it says to keep 121's away from metal shavings and the like because they can become magnetically attached to the ribbon. I wonder what that sonds like?
Old 21st December 2002
  #17
Lives for gear
 
Knox's Avatar
 

oh sure (metal shavings) . . I was talking to him about other mics metal bodies, things like that. I asked him about storing them in mic locker, would it be wise to keep them away from other objects that could be magnetic. He said that was not an issue.
Old 21st December 2002
  #18
Whenever I get a silica Gel bag in some hi fi or camera equipment, I keep it to toss into my mic locker / plastic container...

Old 21st December 2002
  #19
Jax
Lives for gear
 

That'll help keep capsules dry, but you can't stick a silica bag on your fridge door....
Old 21st December 2002
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Tim L's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener
... I have also tried using the R121 from the backside, but mainly for acoustic guitar. It's a little brighter that way but it can't stand as much level for some reason.
For anyone interested this is from the R-121 manual (pg 16):

"It is important to note that the SPL handling capability of the rear side of the R-121 is less than it's front side. When tracking loud sounds from the front side, the R-121's design allows ample space for rearward excursions of the ribbon. However, tracking on the backside causes the ribbon to move forward towards the front side of the microphone, where the dampening screen is much closer to the ribbon element."
Old 21st December 2002
  #21
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Wow, a guitar recording thread and I haven't been around for a few days. Too busy recording basics with a band and dealing with a crashed 2" deck. I hate it when shit breaks in the middle of a session. Good news is that it's up and running again and I didn't need any parts. Between working and whatever I haven't been around here much. I digress...

I spent all day Saturday getting sounds for a 4-piece band, 2 guitars, bass drums and another hour or two on Sunday fine tuning things. One guitar player has a reissue Bassman with a THD Hotplate that sounds fuckin' awesome. He's also a great player and sounds good playing through just about anything. So, I threw up a Baby Bottle and ran it into a Telefunken V672 with a 20dB pad on it. We then spent the next 25-30 mintues fine tuning the mic position and ended up with it about 10" back from the cab, about even with the bottom of the cone and slightly off-axis. If it was lower it was too dark, too close and it got wonky, too close to the dust cap and it pulled out this upper mid hash that I can only describe as flemmy (like the shit in your throat in the morning). I have a picture on the camera... maybe next week.

The second guitar player has a DeVille 4x10 which just doesn't sound good for this band. We struggled with mic choice, placement, knobs on the amp and stuff for over an hour before we settled on something that was just "ok". That ended up being another Baby Bottle > V672 on the front with an SM57 on the back into the console and summed to one track. The mic was about 6-8" off the cab, slightly higher then the top of the amp and angled down.

We finished tracking basics Thursday around 6pm and called it a day because everyone (including me) had a gig that night. Today me and the one guitar player (Pete, the Bassman guy) went through all his tracks from basics and figured out what was good and worth punching in and what was total ca-ca. Then we spent an hour or two going through guitar amps because we're starting guitars at noon. Pete is really into organic sounds, overdriven tube amps and no preamp fuzz. The other guitar player, Jay is a preamp distortion guy so we were trying to figure out what will work for him so we don't waste a ton of time today. Damn, that's 8 hours from now, I should get some sleep.

So far we've decided that we don't like the Marshall 4x12 with 75 watt Celestions as much as my homebuilt 2x12 with Vintage 30's. The Dual Rectifier is totally out of the running, it might get used on a solo or other overdub but it really sounds like crap next to the other amps. The JCM800 sounds great, as does a Fender Princeton (70's) running into the 2x12. The VHT Pitbull is kind of nice and might get used on two of the songs and some overdubs but for Jay we're thinking the 800 and Fender should cover about 85% of it. Pete is going to use his Bassman and a Vibrolux for most of the stuff with the odd Marshall solo here and there. At least that's what the plan is.

I'll probably set up most of the usual suspect mics. A few 57's and 421's, a 414, Beyer/Sank M260DX for room (these amps are LOUD), the Baby Bottles and an Oktava MC012. I might also pull out the TLM103 or at least have it close by. Oh, and I also have a pair of PZM's out that were the drum room mics. We want to try and keep it organic.

Michael, it's interesting to see that you have four 4x12 cabs with one mic on each. Also, more interesting is that the mics seem to be aimed right at the dust cap. How can you get something that isn't so bright and piercing out of that? Usually whenever I have a mic (especially the 103!!!) on the cap it sounds like ca-ca. Were there any room mics not shown in that pic? What heads were driving those cabs.
Old 21st December 2002
  #22
Engle sure is loud!

Yes I use a Royer too..

often into a 1272 pre. (1073 module using no eq)

Michael hve you auditioned the new Boogie 'recording' pre amp yet? can you see what it sounds like out of the Engle power amp when you do by any chance please? (cause thats how I can see myself using it most times)

Old 21st December 2002
  #23
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by mwagener
Alpha, can you hear me? Didn't you subjet the 121 to massive levels as well?
yep... remember me playing you that CD when i was there and on that last feedback note is sounded like the speakers were about to blow up? i believe that was the ribbon on the royer... i stick the royer right up on the grill most of the time, but it always ends up a tad off axis which i think helps with the SPL capabilities.

i too track with the guitar amps balls to the walls. the orange OD120 i use is almost always at 10 on the master gain. my fender bassman is always daisychained from channel 2 to channel 1 and both those volumes up to at least 7 or 8. the sound city 120 is unbelievably loud to get it to sound right... cant even go in the room really while playing.

typically my guitar setups are: royer 121, crown CM700, SM57, U195 into either chandler EMI, flamingo [in FAT], or API's.

more times than not i have to make the guitars "less big" to fit with the rest of the action in the mix.


one of the cooler guitar sounds i have come across lately is on the [newer] fu manchu where apparently they used danelectro plexi's straight into marshall 2k's... really tight and big sound. but shit, most of the "size" is in the guitar players hands. i can make a shitty tube silvertone 10" combo sound huge in the right players hands. i have actually heard a 8" peavey practice amp at low volume sound like a wall of stacks played by one guy once.
Old 21st December 2002
  #24
Lives for gear
 
Tim L's Avatar
 

My favorite hvy gtr "start point" lately has been the R-121 about an inch off the grill directly out from where the dust cap meets the cone, turned slightly away from the cap and towards the cone. From there it goes into the Phoenix (DR2146) and then either the Distressor, SC2.2, or a dbx 160x (I'm really diggin' the dbx on gtr lately for some reason).

The space I'm using doesn't handle massive pressure levels all that well, both from an acoustical standpoint inside the room and a "fucking with the neighbors" one as well. Though I can go fairly loud, balls out stacks are not an option in my little cave...(I lament). My work around has been the THD Hotplate. I get a nice medium between driving the power tubes at a much lower SPL and not getting shut down by the neighbors (they never have but why piss them off). Granted you won't get the same air movement or "speaker break" but it works great just the same. The THD's an invaluable tool for me!

I know I'm probably in the minority on this but backing off on SPL's quite often sounds bigger to me anyway... has anyone else come across this?
Old 21st December 2002
  #25
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Jay Kahrs
[B . . . Michael, it's interesting to see that you have four 4x12 cabs with one mic on each. Also, more interesting is that the mics seem to be aimed right at the dust cap. How can you get something that isn't so bright and piercing out of that? Usually whenever I have a mic (especially the 103!!!) on the cap it sounds like ca-ca. Were there any room mics not shown in that pic? What heads were driving those cabs. [/B]
The main cabs used are the ENGL vintage 30 (bottom right) which is not too bright and the '69 Marshall 25 Greenbacks (top left) which has not a lot of top either. The photo might be giving you some false info about the positioning. The 121 is at the edge of the dust cap and so is the AM62. The 800 Marshall (bottom left) is just used if there is not enough high end, because the top on that one just pokes your eyes out. The Fender (top right) is also only used to mix in 50 to 75% with one of th other cabs mainly for midrange. Yes, the TLM sounded like crap, centered or not, as I said in my post, I yet have to find a good use for it.

The heads used are;
ENGL Savage 120 Special Edition on the ENGL vintage 30 cab
Mesa Dual Rectum Fryer on the 800 Marshall
ENGL "Blackmore" edition 50 W on the '69 Marshall cab

Other amps used as needed are:
Marshall 50W plexi (old ACCEPT amp, remember "Balls To The Wall"? That one)
Rivera 2X100W stereo head (?#)
Fender Twin silverface combo
Ampeg something 15, which is actually part of a bass 15" cabinet -amp combo, where the amp sits upside down in the cab for transport,
and of course the old ADA MP-1 with dual Macintosh 100W poweramps. Those are actually Transistor HiFi amps but they have an output transformer and distort nicely when driven hard.

Most of the time I only use one cab with one mic for a track, unless I want to add some frequency that's missing in the particular guitar used. The reason all the mics and cabs are set up is so I can compare the different sounds sitting in the track when approaching a new song. In some cases the '69 Marshall and the ENGL cab are connected to the same amp and in other cases I use a different amp to power each cabinet. If I use more than one mic, they are all phase aligned with the LittleLabs IBPs, which almost act like some kind of EQ in that case.

I remember times when we had 16 mics on 4 different cabinets in three different rooms (Dokken "Under Lock And Key") and ended up sendig the bus through a Fostex 4 track, because George Lynch liked the distortion he got with his Fostex at home. The 4 track was hidden under a blanket under the console, but that's actually the guitar sound on that album heh


Quote:
Michael hve you auditioned the new Boogie 'recording' pre amp yet? can you see what it sounds like out of the Engle power amp when you do by any chance please? (cause thats how I can see myself using it most times)
Jules, the guy dropped off the Recording Amp after the guitar player went already back home. I have to do a few more tracks in January on which I will try out this amp.
Old 22nd December 2002
  #26
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Interesting. As a side note, after reading your post before my session yesterday I had the guitar player read it too. The Dokken reference might've been too much though, we all kept looking at each other and saying "Dokken!!!" Well, ya had to be there because it was pretty funny.


Anyway, we started Jay's guitar overdubs. We ended up going with the Princeton driving the 2x12. The JCM800 sounded nice but just wasn't fat enough for him. We're using an EQ pedal on some songs just to boost the amp and kick the input a little harder. I've got a Baby Bottle and SM57 set back from the amp, maybe a foot back and the capsules are aligned with each other. I also have a 421 in the back of the cab and a 414 in omni maybe 5 feet back and just over the top of the cab. Preamps are

Baby Bottle > OSA, SM57 > V672, 421 > 1272 with console EQ to get rid of the real mud and just add thump, and 414 > Daking > Aphex Expressor. I've got all the mics coming up on the console and I'm bussing out through an 1176 on the way to tape. The 1176 is doing a few things for me. It's a final level control even though I'm not compressing with it. I'm also cranking the input gain on it to get a little more grind and bite when needed. Also, if I do need a bit of compression it'll take care of the job. So far I've only compressed one song to tape and the sound is pretty fukkin' cool IMHO and the rest of the band agrees. Hell, when Jay came out of the room and heard it after his take he thought it was pretty bitchin'. I usually don't compress guitars to tape, only if it will help the part and that definatly helped.
Old 8th January 2003
  #27
Gear Maniac
 
vsl666's Avatar
 

thanx

thank you all esp micheal for your replies..

sorry i have been (and am still) absent but the juggernaut
that is my life wont wait for me...madd #

so i wont blow the royer ?

mm i'll rent one so m ok
πŸ“ Reply
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
πŸ–¨οΈ Show Printable Version
βœ‰οΈ Email this Page
πŸ” Search thread
♾️ Similar Threads
πŸŽ™οΈ View mentioned gear