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we have more shit than we need
Old 23rd June 2002
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

we have more shit than we need

without getting all bill and ted on you all, I need to break down a thought.

I often worry about my setup, things I am missing and things I feel I really need. I miss the days where I was so eager to use the few great mics I had on everything, and I would be so convinced I could rule the world with a handfull of good shit.

I now often beat myself up for using a DP rig, and often feel like I wont be doing this legitimatly until I fess up and get a Mix+ system.

I know guys with only slightly more gear than me (setup wise, but basically they have the nice rack of neve wiggy stuff) than me doing major label work, yet they also have a better network of rooms they can work out of on the label's budget.

Bottom line is that I think anyone here with a Mix+ rig ( or any decent DAW), eight channels of good mic pres. a good solid collection of mics covering one good large dia, one good stereo pair of small dias, the necessary great dynamics - a few killer comps and effects boxes, and of course a good set of monitors - anyone with that stuff, and that's alot of us here - should be able to make the shit work just as good as the big ol room with way too much shit in it.

We have it made, technology speaking - we should be working to get the best product with what we have, and not looking for another piece of gear as the solution

Why do we do this to ourselves? I know that If I viewed my racks in a different way I would be happy as can be, yet at other times I feel like I have a toy setup

As a favor to yourself, take a look at what you own - and question the gear, and then question your abilities

when I do that, I still have things I want (mainly the PT rig), yet most of it lies in getting sounds to play nice with each other...That and I realize that If I had the bucks, I'd pretty much end up with Jules' place - plus or minus a few things, but that's the direction I am headed in. By the time I get the money, who knows what I will want/need.
Old 23rd June 2002
  #2
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

its the BIG room that will make so much more of a difference than having PT.
Old 23rd June 2002
  #3
Lives for gear
 

I've been comparing the last mix I did tracked thru trident and neve pre's with a fatso and a pair of dbx 160vu's to the last record I did for the band. The last time I recorded them I was using mackie pres and was using no other outboard. Everything was done in the box..... but we did have like 3 weeks to record 10 songs. The thing I did last week was for 2 seperate 7" and we did 4 songs in 4 days including mix. Soooo anyways the last mix I did that I tracked thru all kinds of great stuff still doesnt compare to the stuff tracked thru a mackie. Sonically I'll admit its a little better, but we didnt have time to play around with amps and guitars and put effort into a really nice mix.... so the end result is I'd rather listen to the first thing I did for them even though it may lack a little depth at times.

This is making me getting a little less gear crazy and more worried about how much time I get and working as fast as I possibly can. Because in the end music comes over sonics.

I had been planning to buy a radar for a long time, but now I'm really thinking a real PT system would be best for how I work. I think I could work a lot faster and being able to do submixes before I go out to my console could make recalling mixes a little faster. So anyone know how much a used mix or mix+ is going for with an adat bridge? I definetly cant swing for HD right now.

But as for needing equipment... If I can just get the PT system a pair or distressors and the new kurzweil effect unit... ill be all set grggt
Old 23rd June 2002
  #4
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
IMHO: the more shit you have the better, just get the right shit for YOU. They are all tools. But everybody's "personal toolbox" is different. You get the stuff that makes YOUR job easier for your toolbox (studio), not the stuff that your neighbor has or is the most expensive or gets recomended in some review. I have a few $ 50 - $ 200 units in my studio that get used all the time. A 57 can be a great mic, if used for the right application. And yes, you can rule the world with a *handful of good shit*. What we are selling are emotions not dBs, and those emotions can be as good through a 57 as they can be through a 251. The sound will be different, but the emotions don't care about the price of a mic or if you have DP or PT. I agree 100% with planet red and alpha that TIME and ENVIRONMENT are the most important ingredients (good musicianship assumed) for a great record. That is one of the reasons why I decided to finally get my own studio (which I never wanted to do): I love taking my time for recording and mixing, I'm probably slower than most of memebers here, but it doesn't matter, it's on my pocket. But the product coming out at the other end is a lot better than if I had to rush in a $ 2,500/day facility. And I still can buy my own fruitbasket.heh You should be fine with what you have and be glad you don't have to do records in 2 days because you have to rent a big studio for $$$.

There is also a lot of luck involved in this business, being at the right place at the right time and finding that ONE band that puts you over the top. From then on the world will look completely different and even though you are still saying the same things as before, people will now take it for gospel. Unfortunately, it can be a long way to get there, but on the other hand it's a great time to practice. When I opened my first studio in 1979 in Hamburg Germany, I had NO clients, just a band rehearsing there, perfect time to get out the manual and find out what a dBX 160 can do when you use it exactly the opposite way than described in the manual.

Of course you need some basic equipment that you can rely on (monitors being the most important in my book) and you already HAVE a great toolbox. The next thing you need is a great band, that you click with, playing the music that YOU like, so you can create some magic, I would spend my money on finding them before I'd buy another mic.
Old 23rd June 2002
  #5
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

if you EVER find that one band grudge

i dont think its possible to have enough... i could always have more to use. but in the meantime, using what you have to its utmost and extended manner is the key.

i dont know why you would beat yourself up using DP in lieu of PT... aside from lack of a GOOD controller for it. i dont think i recall a point cursing DP as an actual APP and wanting PT. now if PT incorporated auto delay compensation THROUGHOUT, then i would want it.
Old 23rd June 2002
  #6
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

the artists are the people who find out first ...
i totally agree on your thoughts JAY .
humans are kings in turning gold into shit . the whole industry , the whole scene ... its fucked up .
i never believed in the " magic of the gear " ... to me we are almost where we never shouldnt be ... gearslutz & junkies .
there are cool artists , there is great music & good sound ...
but it looks like nobody gives a shit anymore .
99% on MTV ... argggggghhhhh ...

it really turned into a business , even the musicians , even most producers , almost anyone . i dont expect that something cool & fresh can come out with an attitude like that .

i played or worked with people who know that much about music then my neighbours do ( even less ) . they all stars , cause they know how to roll a joint .

nobody wants to work anymore , its just like " do it or die " .
i remember tracking stuff for an album years ago , in an ok studio with a great vibe . the micpre was a drawmer 1960 straight to tape . it rocked ...

i am pretty lucky nowadays if theres more then 1 good song on a cd . and all those big people ... hmmm , sorry , i dont like most of their stuff .

i know people working on some songs for their album almost for 2 years , with big names , and ... lalalalalalalalala ... BULLSHIT .

and hey michael , can u still speak german ???



heh

it doesnt make sence to own the best gear in the world if you cant record something cool .

meanwhile some nice music ( check it out ) :

Paula Cole " AMEN " , Mike Stern " VOICES " , KCs Choice " Almost Happy " ...

WHOs GONNA CHANGE THE WORLD ???


i dont have a big name ... thats why nobody cares bout my opinion ... but hey , you may be sad ,
ITS STILL FUN FOR ME
Old 24th June 2002
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Right now I have a band that did a 6 song ep at a big name $90 an hour studio in dc and..... they're coming to me to rerecord it. Not because I'm some golden eared hotshot, but I click with the guys in the band and they like the easy going vibe and they dont feel rushed. So the basic unmixed rythmn tracks already sound better then the crap they spent a good chunk of change working on.

I'm a young guy (about to turn 20) and have had some expierence in a real studio as an intern (ahem.... bathroom cleaner, coffeemaker) but I got a little money and decided to open my own little place. I'm learning a ton and at first I was afraid that since I didnt have a bunch of 1176's, a lexicon 480 and some classy vintage mics I couldnt do good work. I was definetly wrong. Im really suprised by the stuff I've been turning out and actually have a fair amount of business (normally work between 40 and 60 hours a week). So now its getting to the point where bands are taking real budgets and coming to me to do sizable releases..... in the punk rock world at least.

So my budget has been altered. Instead of a bunch of cool name gear, I want a few nice pieces and a HUGE tracking room and a lounge. I dont care if my control room looks like a spaceship, I want a comfortable place bands can do good work. I want to be confident that the vibe will help the bands play better, and ill have good enough stuff to get it recorded well. So ill be going out and buying a couple nice amps instead of a couple royers and some API pres. In the end ill be making better records and bands will be happiest.
Old 24th June 2002
  #8
Wow! What an honour to have such a deep philosophical (gearslut) conversation on the forum I moderate on! (I am serious)

Yes... sigh.

The thing that I seem to be using as a mantra nowadays is 'there is no excuse' and 'all there is left to do is... WORK!'

Jay Crouch said "I think anyone here with a Mix+ rig (or any decent DAW), eight channels of good mic pres. a good solid collection of mics covering one good large dia, one good stereo pair of small dias, the necessary great dynamics - a few killer comps and effects boxes, and of course a good set of monitors - anyone with that stuff, and that's alot of us here - should be able to make the shit work just as good as the big ol room with way too much shit in it."

BTW Jay the object of PT desire has shifted to the HD range (unless you want that 'vintage' PT sound)

More & more I have been thinking of Formula Ford as an analogy for the modern DAW - studio in a box revolution. Formula Ford is a British amateur car race classification where ALL the cars are EXACYLY the same and there is no mechanical difference, it's just down to the drivers skill - and you know what - its damn fun to watch! (Especially in the rain)

To me the music industry seems to be sitting on its hands with a 'why bother?' attitude. Managers I bump into aren't getting out of bed for bands anymore unless they can see potential of a SURE FIRE HIT. Their old throw shit at the wall and see what sticks vibe has vaporised...



Er... where were we?

Oh yes, gear...we need more! And QUICK!

hehehehe

No, ASHLEY if you trained up / worked in a world class facility you are going to understand and MISS elements from that world. If you started in your bedroom and expanded to your garage and perhaps a 2nd premises you are going to read about borrow be loaned or DISCOVER shit you like / want / feel you need / cant be without. I don't know about the rest of you but I find making records HARD.

I dunno, as the last part of my unfocussed inconclusive 'ramble' (andthankyoufolettinmexpressmacef) I would like to suggest that those of us in the 'chargeable studio game' should make ourselves LESS available to those with little talent (no low cost price deals) and MORE available to those WITH talent... Life's too short.

yuktyy

Ramble on!
Old 24th June 2002
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
vsl666's Avatar
 

wow

wow what alot of good points !

it really gives me hope ... i often get flamed for this but i really think that things are going to turn around and that the industry is going to stop commiting suicide and realise that people are not all stupid and WILL buy (love) good music
*gush*

agree with mike ... u need a good act .. all time should go into this ..

if u cant get one thing right well ..

also agree with jules ALOT .. making a record is VERY VERY
hard .. which is why you dont often hear a good one ..

but thats good 4 us right ? gives us somthing to do
my poor brain

however altho having a good act is the main thing all the ingrediants are important and we cant leave any i's not dotted or any t's not crossed ...


as jules said life is short no time 4 pratting around with bad gear

my studio mantra is

SHUT UP AND ROCK

as we all tend to talk far to much .. madd



huh what where was i oh ! yes

mikes got it in 1 you can never have to much ! *cheering*

i cant anyway ...its
just what u choose had better be right coz
alot of bad gear wont help but lead u far from the path of richeousness

jah is my co-pilotgrggt

Old 24th June 2002
  #10
Gear Maniac
 
vsl666's Avatar
 

ps

sorry ps ..

im not sure jules about this training up thing you know
i mean what can be better experiance than getting on with it
rolling up your sleaves and getting your hands dirty ?

he seems to have learnt ALOT of what not to do fairly quickley

more power to him *shruggs* just a thought ..

tho ..well anyway

xxx

one love
Old 24th June 2002
  #11
Lives for gear
 
davemc's Avatar
 

I have added more gear in the last year then I probably should off. Amek 9098, Fatso, Drawmer 1969, ISA430, KRK v6's, Sub, Pair Ntk's, Pair M160's, Sony Oxford EQ, UA 2-610 and then the HD3 192k 16/8 upgrade. Backline JCM800, Soldano, DW maple snare, 13" dark hats, 13" picolo snare, bass pod.

I can now pull a lot better sounds, although I am pretty quiet as no one has ever heard of the bands I record. Great gear will only capture the level of bands you record. I do a lot of young bands hence even with the gear it sometimes does not make the difference.

I am doing a freebie deal with a band that I know that have some hype about them (for good reasons). Even there raw tracks shit on most of the other bands I have recorded as they are really great players.

I have done the cheaper deals to get bands in and you end up with just cheap bands.
Done a couple of compilations to get my name around.
Although at the end of the day unless you have done a couple of well known bands you cannot move up.
As the first thing you get asked is who have you done that I know.

The gear craze is great, but I agree with Jules the gear is not the difference it is the band first and then the engineer that matters more.
Old 24th June 2002
  #12
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

wasnt it ed cherney who said he became a great engineer when he started working with great musicians.

and i know i have always said 90% of the sound is in the hands of the musicians, im just the icing. but that last 10% is a bitch.
Old 24th June 2002
  #13
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Let's put it that way: if you have great musicians with great songs, great gear can make the best of it but it will still be great even without great gear (good engineering/producing skills assumed), but if you have a shitty band and/or shitty songs, all the best gear will not make it better.

Quote:
if you EVER find that one band
as long as we can survive while searching, we're still pretty well off. I've tried it, but the lines: "do you want fries with that" or "paper or plastic?" don't come easy across my lips. And where else can we wear sweat pants to work and drink beer on the job?

Quote:
hey michael , can u still speak german ???
Yes, I do, even though the sentences get turned upside down sometimes and I have to think about some of the wordsheh
Old 24th June 2002
  #14
Lives for gear
 

I think the one problem all the internet groups cause is..... "i need this peice of equipment to get good _____ sounds". I'm sooo guilty of this myself.

I think its a copout to say "the reason I dont have records that sound as good as _____ is because of the gear". No one ever has the guts to say, my equipment is past where im at engineering wise. I bet some big mixer guy could sit down with my tracks recorded in my room and make it sound way better then I could. Theirs a reason he's gettin paid X amount of money to mix one song and im not. Even from talking to local engineers its always something about NEEDING more equipment. Its such a copout.

An older friend of mine has a little studio he does work in.... he's retired so doesnt do a lot but still thinks its fun to occasionally work on some acoustic hip hop type stuff. He's recording to a Tascam 1" 16 track thru a tascam 3500 with a couple lower end dbx and beringer compressors with one 1178 and an eventide 3000 and his tracks ROCK. He used to work in some bigger studios in nashville and dc area, and during the time had the setup for playing around at home.... so its typical project studio stuff from 1988 or so. He keeps it around for fun, not to make money or anything. Anyways the stuff he's doing sounds as good as the roots or some other organic hip hop thats on the radio. Because he knows what he's doing and doesnt care enough to think he needs more equipment. Instead if he wants a certain sound he tries as hard as he can with what he has even with his tascam preamps and cheap ass compressors and mostly typical dynamics with one U89 and two c451's.
I looked around his place once and you could tell not a single rack screw had been removed in the last 10 years. Because that isnt even his mindset.

So everytime I feel like I need something new, I listen to some stuff he's given me. Makes me want to go back to the studio and work my ass off..... but I still end up getting what i want yuktyy . Anyways I'm sick and managed to get myself a 103 degree fever so I'll probably read this tommorrow and realize im an idiot. 8 more days of recording till i get a break..... but i did quit real early tonight. sucks having deadlines.
Old 24th June 2002
  #15
Here for the gear
 

Never have there been so many recording studios, from the bedroom DAW to the big rooms that have survived. Even the rudimentary DAW in the kid's bedroom can do things inconceivable at a state-of-the-art studio of 1980. Gear manufacturers from the sublime to the ridiculous pump out more gizmos that are just a little better than last year's gizmo, and you've just gotta have it, dont'cha know?

Paralleling this trend is the decline in music education...I don't know what it's like 'round the rest of the world, but in the US frills like "music" and "art" are attacked with a battle axe as soon as the money starts getting tight. Combining this with the plethora of distractions available in this day and age, and a general decline in the musical aptitude of the young is apparent. Yes, there are a few bright spots here and there, and I've worked with a few of them.

So...


Proliferation of studios + decline in musical aptitude = "more shit than we need". A slightly OT interpretation of the thread header.

We don't need more studios or more gear. We need more good musicians who have something to say.

RP
Old 24th June 2002
  #16
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

well, like right now i want 2 more R121's... i COULD just substitute 57's for it for guitar instead of using my R121 on it, get a decent sound [or my CM700] but thats not what im after with how i go bout recording. now i want a R121 on the kick. i cant track live and put the only R121 i own on guitar AND kick. but i cant remember right this second what i wanted that 3rd on for... oh yeah, for when i have dual guitars tracking live.

of course, i could certainly make just as good of a final product regardless of the gear... even if i had just 57's and no R121 anywhere. its not necessarily about the bands talent, your talent, or the gear you own... sometimes you just WANT to have what you want to make what you think will ultimately sound the greatest in your third ear. and there really isnt anything wrong with that.

and re:wanting... hmm, i deal with massive limitations every single day, i dont think i have ever had a session where there wasnt some inherent limitation involved. i think it would just be an absolute dream to have everything you want to make a recording down to the smallest detail. an event where there would be absolutely no excuse for sonic disparity. of course you would need a band who also lived up to the standards of the gear, and hope to fucking gawd you dont screw the pooch anyways [although thats REALLY hard to do IMO] i have several bands that would fit that bill in mind... problem is that the labels wouldnt know WTF to do with it when the album was complete...
Old 24th June 2002
  #17
Gear Maniac
 
vsl666's Avatar
 

the thing



all this gearslut we dont really need the gear is a bit worrying ..

i mean u need certain bits of kit that do THE THING if u aint
got THE THING there aint no THING happening and well
with no THING you aint got NOTHING and then they all play
all bored and im bored and its boring so u need some things that do the THING ...whatever your THING may be ..

yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy
Old 24th June 2002
  #18
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

well said.
Old 24th June 2002
  #19
Lives for gear
 

My whole thing is that their have been a million records done with a 57 on a marshall cab running thru a neve 10xx series pre where the guitars sounded like GOD. So why dont all my guitar tracks sound like god when using the same setup? Should I go out and spend a grand on a nice ribbon, or get to the place that I too always get my guitar tracks sounding amazing with a 57.

I've heard plenty of guitar tracks done with the royer that dont even beat what I've done with a 57 and a 421 (not saying i know what im doing) but people automatically assume they need stuff when they still havent gotten the full use out of what they own. Every time I see someone say "i cant get good guitar tones with my 57" someone says "go get a royer" even though with a little work you should be able to get very good results with a 57.

I've totally been in that boat for too long. I've thought I've NEEDED certain stuff to get good recordings.... when really nice equipment is just icing on the cake, not the cake itself.

But anyways Im just speaking about what I've expierenced. I'd definetly love a shopping spree at the mercenary webpage, but I need to get over thinking I need the stuff. I hate feeling like if only I had Brand X...... These tracks would be kicking.

I know a bunch of other young guys like myself that never ask for advice on anything other then gear purchases. Never about tips and techniques.... thinking the gear itself will make a good recording. Damn this prescription is KICKING in
Old 24th June 2002
  #20
Lives for gear
 

Obviously I am assuming you own nice stuff already. Not saying if you spend a couple hundred dollars you should be able to get amazing results.....
Old 24th June 2002
  #21
Lives for gear
 
davemc's Avatar
 

Well thats thing.
I like to record bands down live and keep the lot.
That means I have to have enough good pres/mics to record a bands with 2 guitars.
It also means that when I do a 3 peice one side of my 1969 and one side of 9098 sits there doing nothing. Unless I manualy patch them, So a patchbay will probably be next.

Then you go through your phases, I like the M160's on overheads and liked then as well on guitr, I liked the NTK's for Oh's too, so the M160s go on guitar.

The UA has gone from vocals, to kick/snare, to guitars and now are used for OH's.

mmmm really need a big patchbay but they are not cheap???

Yeah I would not say my chops are the best they could be, some of the gear helps. Vocals sounded better once I teamed the Rode classic up with the ISA430. The rode lived another day, although I would like a better vocal mic.
Sometimes you sit there thinking why does the guitar suck in the mix, it is because it does. I have learned a lot of tricks from people on the web, the one thing I keep trying to get back to is "shit in shit out". Take all the EQ/compe off and listen see if it fits to start with.

Whenever I do older players or roots stuff, the mixes kick, it is just sometimes you cannot put a square peg in a round hole.
Old 24th June 2002
  #22
High End Moderator
 
mwagener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by rpowell
Never have there been so many recording studios, from the bedroom DAW to the big rooms that have survived. Even the rudimentary DAW in the kid's bedroom can do things inconceivable at a state-of-the-art studio of 1980. Gear manufacturers from the sublime to the ridiculous pump out more gizmos that are just a little better than last year's gizmo, and you've just gotta have it, dont'cha know?

Paralleling this trend is the decline in music education...I don't know what it's like 'round the rest of the world, but in the US frills like "music" and "art" are attacked with a battle axe as soon as the money starts getting tight. Combining this with the plethora of distractions available in this day and age, and a general decline in the musical aptitude of the young is apparent. Yes, there are a few bright spots here and there, and I've worked with a few of them.

So...


Proliferation of studios + decline in musical aptitude = "more shit than we need". A slightly OT interpretation of the thread header.

We don't need more studios or more gear. We need more good musicians who have something to say.

RP
amen.

On the other hand I could be on crack and would probably spend more money on that than on geartut. Gear is MY crackheh
Old 24th June 2002
  #23
Lives for gear
 
5down1up's Avatar
 

never met somebody whos doing a serious job to get his crack paid ... heh
i hope you dont have to mix your next record in jail heh

good luck

back to the topic : as far as their are some people like yall , my world is still ok , you know what you love ... and thats great .
imho u can buy all the gear you want ( even if u have some 1176 ureis - massenburg eq - hedd -6*genelc 1032a connected to a cdplayer to listen to music during your daily toilet sessions )


peace
Old 24th June 2002
  #24
Gear Addict
 

Sometimes I'm tempted to just grab a portastudio and a couple dynamics and ditch the rest, so I only have performances to focus on. Then I break into a cold sweat until I can run my fingers over my rack . . .

Bear
Old 24th June 2002
  #25
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by planet red
I've heard plenty of guitar tracks done with the royer that dont even beat what I've done with a 57 and a 421 (not saying i know what im doing) but people automatically assume they need stuff when they still havent gotten the full use out of what they own. Every time I see someone say "i cant get good guitar tones with my 57" someone says "go get a royer" even though with a little work you should be able to get very good results with a 57.
you should be able to throw up a 57 on a guitar cabinet blind and get a great sound. i've never had a problem with that.... but these days [especially recording digitally] i would much rather put a R121 on it.
Old 25th June 2002
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
vsl666's Avatar
 

gtr


it has to be said itys very easy to thro a 57 on a marshall thro a whatever and get an awful racket !##

it might not be your fault .. maybe he /she is makin an awful racket ?

what gtr ? .. what speakers in marshal ?? (celestion greenbaks required) room etc

most folk can't play the gtr thats what i put it down to
as mentioned its amazing what a good player can make sound fine ..by not overplaying leaving required space having control over how things ring on etc ...(being in the right KEY FOR ****SAKE)....well it wouldnt be a 1st!

*LOL*

grggt bloody guitarists noisey buggers

new strings ? what strings ? in tune all those real silly things ..

sorry sore point
Old 7th November 2006
  #27
Lives for gear
 
GYang's Avatar
Just thought recently about something similar.
After fully equipped 'dream' room target reached, I started to work on room 'B', now 'C'. Always something can be improved. But how to keep balance?
Yes. final result might be financially better due to increased revenue (still, that's bad way of making money), but with all that shit I feel many of us become less creative, less musical, less expressive. Less real joy after all. Expected result of expanded technical consumerism.
Lot of shit = sickness.
gimme doctor
Old 7th November 2006
  #28
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayCrouch View Post

I now often beat myself up for using a DP rig, and often feel like I wont be doing this legitimatly until I fess up and get a Mix+ system.
Wow. A Thread from 2002. I wonder if he ever got that Mix+ system he was dreaming about.
Old 7th November 2006
  #29
Jai guru deva om
 
warhead's Avatar
 

Wonder how his midterm elections turned out also.

War
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