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DSD.. Opinions?
Old 30th December 2002
  #31
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

weird the pic go? and wuz that analog TAPE or just analog circutry.... BIG difference.
Old 31st December 2002
  #32
Lives for gear
 
Volodia's Avatar
 

jessy you've got it the wrong way . DSD is not PCM . Most of the converters used today are Delta sigma technology (ie 1 bit) . The signal is then converted to PCM downsampled and decimated . So it's the other way around. the great advantage of DSD is that you can convert it to any format 24/192 ,16/44.1.... It's a much better way to store things because you're not stuck with a format. 3us was used to show that even at 192 Khz some information was missing . Tests were made that show that humans can sense stereo differences of 3us . at 44.1 you have an information every 22us . at 192Khz 1 every 5us . High sampling rate is not just to have high frequencies ,it's to have a more continuous representation of the sound (like analog). But nobody is putting a gun in front of you to buy DSD . You can stay with vintage 16bit/44.1 if that's your pleasure ;we're just having a discussion about what's around the corner and what are our feelings about it .AFAIK I'm excited by a technology that would be closer to analog , even if I know I could be disapointed . I use PCM Digital every day quite successfully but I would trade it anyday if something better comes up .
Old 31st December 2002
  #33
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
High sampling rate is not just to have high frequencies ,it's to have a more continuous representation of the sound (like analog).
Yes indeed - micro-accuracy in timing matters! The more data we have between the "holes" the closer to reality it will sound.
Old 31st December 2002
  #34
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Volodia
jessy you've got it the wrong way . DSD is not PCM . Most of the converters used today are Delta sigma technology (ie 1 bit) . The signal is then converted to PCM downsampled and decimated .
Aw man I feel rotten about rubbin you up the wrong way - yeah it'd be great if this sacd stuff was for real, and yeah I'd get real excited too. But man youre showing exactly how these cons are kidding you by making you believe that a 44.1 system only outputs stuff every 22us outta your monitors, thats totally wrong. Go talk with any geek who knows about analog converters! And then you go figuring its better to record, process and mix in some format that needs converting back to the very darned thing they say is busted and theyre tryin to make you believe is obsolete! Then the same cons that are sellin you this stuff even got the nerve to admit that they themselves are converting it backward and forward to PCM, like the format they say is broken, so you can mix it and stuff! They sure must be laughin at yer, maybe theyre wagerin bets right now to how far they can go like its some kinda sad game of chicken? I mean like what the hell can they tell you next time around, like yeah man its PCM all along but our PCMs better than yours and like man youll go believing that too?!!
And then you go tellin me that this 1bit data formats so great when every darned geek in the business seems to have sussed already that its limited to the performance of the old converter tech that got chucked out like 5years ago by the chip makers. Hell man what more evidence do you guys need?
No offence but this ****s winding me up, there aint no reason for me to say more. Lie down and be fleeced if you dig magic, but I sure as hell don't like being treated like a lamb and bull****ted like a mule. I aint no bright geek but I sure as hell aint no ****** either!
Old 3rd January 2003
  #35
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Volodia's Avatar
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jessel_toby
[B] youre showing exactly how these cons are kidding you by making you believe that a 44.1 system only outputs stuff every 22us outta your monitors, thats totally wrong.

Nobody's saying it's outputing stuff every 22us but that it's capturing it every 22us . I know that a converter recreates a continuous wave but the problem is in what's being captured .
Old 6th January 2003
  #36
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Volodia
[B]
Quote:
Originally posted by jessel_toby
youre showing exactly how these cons are kidding you by making you believe that a 44.1 system only outputs stuff every 22us outta your monitors, thats totally wrong.

Nobody's saying it's outputing stuff every 22us but that it's capturing it every 22us . I know that a converter recreates a continuous wave but the problem is in what's being captured .
No man thats the same thing and you havent understood how sampling works. It doesn't matter that you grab the samples every 20us at all, like all this does is make you a 20khz limit to the audio you can get out of the rig. Can you hear more than that then? Hell I see theres no point in bangin on about this stuff here is there?
Old 8th January 2003
  #37
urumita
 
7rojo7's Avatar
 

Most of the DSD gear records at 24/192 also, and will convert to 16/44.1 if you really want to
Old 11th January 2003
  #38
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It's interesting to me as I read over these three pages that the only detractors of dsd are the people who say nothing about ever having heard it. I had the pleasure of being in the room when Mytek demo'ed their 2trk sacd recorder for Sony. Sony wants to have a box they can send to mastering houses and commissioned Mytek to build one. They have a set of references that are straight transfers from analog masters and were comparing the Mytek box to the super-duper Sony reference.

I was floored. I've never heard recordings sound so much like what comes off the busses. As Bob says, there are variations from recording to recording (the James Taylor in the Sony demo, which we know was recorded 16/48 to 3348, is no huge impression, for example.) But when it is great, it's just amazing. If we're talking about the same thing, the Tom Jung recording is incredible. 5 mics direct to disc in surround. Breathtaking.

Before griping, listen.
Old 11th January 2003
  #39
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally posted by robdarling
It's interesting to me as I read over these three pages that the only detractors of dsd are the people who say nothing about ever having heard it. I had the pleasure of being in the room when Mytek demo'ed their 2trk sacd recorder for Sony. Sony wants to have a box they can send to mastering houses and commissioned Mytek to build one. They have a set of references that are straight transfers from analog masters and were comparing the Mytek box to the super-duper Sony reference.

I was floored. I've never heard recordings sound so much like what comes off the busses. As Bob says, there are variations from recording to recording (the James Taylor in the Sony demo, which we know was recorded 16/48 to 3348, is no huge impression, for example.) But when it is great, it's just amazing. If we're talking about the same thing, the Tom Jung recording is incredible. 5 mics direct to disc in surround. Breathtaking.

Before griping, listen.
My feelings generally - but would it not make more practical sense for the industry to develop say 64bit/96 PCM with ultra stable clocks and thereby gain both extended frequency response and greater resolution in the all important 10-20khz band?

Oh, and a predictable migration path from where we are now?

Must get to hear some of this soon - I work with NAIM Audio a lot and they are planning some interesting DSD/PCM listening tests.

Having been involved in these kind of 'discuss-guments' for over 20 years now I can't help but be slightly cynical about the motives of Sony et al.

BTW Anyone remember the Sony multitrak ad from the 80s showing a 3348 on the back of a Mitsubishi pick-up? The headline read "Mitsubishi make great trucks!".

I still bought an x850 in preference so what do I know!



Old 12th January 2003
  #40
My mastering engineer at Sony studios London palyed me that James Taylor recording... he had it on disk playing in a special player... sounded nice.. MNo wonder he had a copy if Sony commissioned the recordings... makes sence now... I should give him a call soon ashley.....

Old 12th January 2003
  #41
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by ZeroSphere


I still bought an x850 in preference so what do I know!
The perfect example of how much BS is flying when it comes to this issue. That was a 15 bit recorder and it still trounces a lot of contemporary 24 bit gear.

This whole thing is all about implementations as opposed to anything theoretical. When Dr. Lip****z finally gets PCM perfected, hopefully he'll let us know. Meanwhile we all have recordings to make and will be using whatever sounds best to us even if it is good old "imperfectable" analog!
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