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Yamaha Pm 1000 and M 1532 mixing desks how they sound so good
Old 31st January 2008
  #1
Gear Head
 

Yamaha Pm 1000 and M 1532 mixing desks how they sound so good

HI All ..

I purchased a Yamaha m 1532 about 5 years ago for home studio. Was told they were made really well with discrete op amps etc...After long use ..Yeah they do sound really good and I have worked on alot of high end gear....I still use alot of utboard gear..but this guy ..sounds great for general pre amp use and mixing ...ie summing...I have seen them advertised as a poor mans 1073 and a neve they are certainly not but I would love someone to explain what discrete means to me...My advice if you see one of these grab it I paid $1500 Aussie dollars and wouldnt let it go for triple that...Would love to know your thoughts and explanations...

Thanks

BA
Old 31st January 2008
  #2
Lives for gear
 
127Riot's Avatar
 

I love yamaha...
Old 31st January 2008
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
blackwatch5805's Avatar
 

i own a pm2000 and couldn't be happier.
Old 3rd February 2008
  #4
Lives for gear
 

"Discreet" circuits generally refer to individual transistors, resistors, caps, etc... that make up an opamp's components.

An IC is all of these components in a DIP package or in certian cases in an 8-legged can.

The fact that a circuit is discreet or not doesn't say that much about sound quil;ity on it's own, but discreet components usually run with higher voltage rails than ICs.
The fact that you have 48V single or +/- 36V, 32V, 24V power rails as oppossed to a +/- 15V supply rails means that you will have much higher amnounts of headroom.
(not all DIP ICs run at +/- 15V, but DIP ICs don't operate at as high avoltage level.)

I don't think that a PM1000 (or 2000) is a discreet circuit design.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but the are certianly not a "poor man's Neve" anything.
Well, maybe if the man was really poor and had really tin ears.

I remember when PM1000s came out.
I have suffered through quite a few evenings of mixing rock-n-roll on them.
I know where #001 and #002 are.
They were Showco consoles that replaced the "superboards" and all of the acts Showco did in the '70s used them.
#001 and #002 were first used on Led Zepplin, but saw duty with many other acts in the late '70s like The BeeGees.
#001 is a 24 channel console and #002 is a 16 channel.
The larger (#001) was the F.O.H. console for Led Zepplin.

#001 is owned by C&W giant Ray Price and it sits in a barn on his farm in East Texas.
I have lost track of #002, but it was in a number of rock clubs here in Dallas, TX back in the '80s.

I was going to buy #001 and part it out, but I'd go to hell for dis-honesty.
Old 3rd February 2008
  #5
Lives for gear
 
jchadstopherhuez's Avatar
 

until i can reallistically afford a 32 ch daking desk...

i am pretty happy with my yamaha pm2000.

it sounds great for what i do. it can take a pounding, and sound great. its got alot transformers...and that sounds good to me.

eq's are certainly not in the api/neve class...but who cares. its a solid desk. i use the preamps all the time for tracking..and i have alot of higher end stuff to use...daking ,1064's, altec, api, sytek...etc.

solid board, i was lucky to find mine in mint shape.

would i prefer to have a neve 80 series or a trident a-range...yes, but i got my yamaha for less than 2 grand...nothing out there that can touch this thing in my opinion until you get up to trident 80 (which i used to own), neves, or stuff that is closer to 20 grand. i have never heard the new toft mixer...so i will leave that out.

i like the yamaha.

best,

jchristopherhughes
Old 3rd February 2008
  #6
Gear Nut
 

I'm fairly certain the pm1000s are all discrete, though i've never heard one myself.

I Did own an m1516 and it sounded great. it does have transformer in/out and discrete mic pres and a output amps. the 1516 is like the baby brother to the pm2k. same mic pres, same EQ (except the high band has a fixed freq...). both sound good. I've upgraded to an auditronics 501 and i like it better, but i made some good recordings with the 1516.

kevin
Old 3rd February 2008
  #7
Gear Addict
 

I had a complete 16 ch pm1000- I sold off all the modules and kept 4 ch strips and 4 output trannies. I got'em powered up and modded for about 70 buck for four. Do the mods recommended by Jim Williams, There are two caps you should change the value of. These are actually insane pres and are IMO on par with some of the more highly priced class A discrete Mic Pre EQ legends. They don't sound like anything I've used but have tons of vibe. I would nt want to record an opera or orchestra wth them though. I was going to change the eq values but I was very happy with the mid selections for vocals, electrics, and acoustics. I still might mod the shelves though. The EQS are great and while they can't perform surgery, they are a great additive EQ, IT's just like adding a colour.

I painfully regret parting out that board.

cheers
Old 4th February 2008
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Yeppers....

The PM1000 IS a discreet design.
It also has coils for the EQ.
The EQ was pretty limited.

The real problem I had with those consoles was that the front end (mic pre-amp) was either too low or just slamming into distortion.
The poor metering ballistics made the solo section useless when trying to set front end gain structure.
They were either noisey or distorted.

I guess if you want some "color" added to you stuff then you could use a PM1000.
It'd be "color" that I wouldn't want.

They go down in live mixing annals as one of the worst consoles to deal with.
The actual channel strip could be OK, but the gain structure of the console was awful from input to output.
In fact, I have brought up the 'popularity" of PM1000s to a bunch of old guard guys and it brings quite a laugh without exception.

There is a reason that they can be bought so cheap you know!

Older isn't neccesarily "good."

Nest we'll se the original little 6 channel TAPCOs being foisted as "good as a Neve."
Old 4th February 2008
  #9
Gear Addict
 

I noticed a big difference in clarity or punch when running just through a modded channel vs running from a buss output of "entire console". I was n't sold on the sound of the latter. I think Yamaha "srewed up" some values in summing buss/summing gain stages. This is one the reason I considered the Pm1000 to be impractical as a console.

Maybe Jim Williams will chime in on this.
Old 4th February 2008
  #10
Lives for gear
 
jchadstopherhuez's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
These are actually insane pres and are IMO on par with some of the more highly priced class A discrete Mic Pre EQ legends. They don't sound like anything I've used but have tons of vibe. I would nt want to record an opera or orchestra wth them though. I was going to change the eq values but I was very happy with the mid selections for vocals, electrics, and acoustics. I still might mod the shelves though. The EQS are great and while they can't perform surgery, they are a great additive EQ, IT's just like adding a colour.

I painfully regret parting out that board.

cheers

i think that is the cool thing about these desks. they do have a sound. you may hate it...i know alot of folks that do. i happen to not be a fan of ssl's....i had one for years..but what do i know.

the yamaha works for me. i choose the pres over some of my more "hi-fi" pres like daking, sytek, neve 1064, hardy...for certain sounds.

i may try some eq mods....i dont use eq alot, i have some daking modules i like alot when i do.....but may be worth trying out.

best,

jchristopherhughes
Old 4th February 2008
  #11
Lives for gear
 
thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1979 View Post
I noticed a big difference in clarity or punch when running just through a modded channel vs running from a buss output of "entire console". I was n't sold on the sound of the latter. I think Yamaha "srewed up" some values in summing buss/summing gain stages. This is one the reason I considered the Pm1000 to be impractical as a console.

Maybe Jim Williams will chime in on this.
Yep, I stand by the fact that you need to hear a modded mic pre before you can begin to Judge, even if you have worked on them a ton. I know they used some incredibly low values in places that basically acted as a severe bandpass. Getting the right stuff in there really opens them up.
Old 5th February 2008
  #12
Lives for gear
 
Beyersound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbbubba View Post
Yeppers....

The PM1000 IS a discreet design.
It also has coils for the EQ.
The EQ was pretty limited.

The real problem I had with those consoles was that the front end (mic pre-amp) was either too low or just slamming into distortion.
The poor metering ballistics made the solo section useless when trying to set front end gain structure.
They were either noisey or distorted.

I guess if you want some "color" added to you stuff then you could use a PM1000.
It'd be "color" that I wouldn't want.

They go down in live mixing annals as one of the worst consoles to deal with.
The actual channel strip could be OK, but the gain structure of the console was awful from input to output.
In fact, I have brought up the 'popularity" of PM1000s to a bunch of old guard guys and it brings quite a laugh without exception.

There is a reason that they can be bought so cheap you know!

Older isn't neccesarily "good."

Nest we'll se the original little 6 channel TAPCOs being foisted as "good as a Neve."
Right you are DBBubba! I also spent many a night wondering why these consoles were held in such high esteem, especially when trying to get a decent drum sound!!! They are well built, the front end does sound pretty good, but as you stated they have strange gain structure issues. The EQ center frequencies were laughable especially the low end, even back in the late 70s early 80s. The first console I ever mixed on was one of those 6000 series Tapcos(with the "big" 8ch expander!), one thing I will say about it is that it was much more musical and had much better gain structure than the Yamaha!
Old 7th February 2008
  #13
Gear Head
 

Thanks all for getting back to me...and thanks for the explanation on discreet.

I must admit that the gain structure on the pre amp is something I may agree with...SOMETIMES it is either to loud or too soft cause it jumps mainly at 10 or 15db intervals.....but that is a rarity..I guess Recording is so different to using these desks in a live sense...I have been producing records for 18 years ..and would never think of walking up to a live guy and tell him I reckon the snare is to loud...and I wouldnt expect him to come in the studio and jump on my desk thinking he knew all about tracking...anyway...I think your right...these guys are not neve's but definately have their own distinct flavour....And it is not a bad sounding one...I use the pre amps occaisionally as an option to my aea trp pre and my amek...9098...and it does sound very smooth and warm...I then also use the board to mix ...ie summing desk with a ssl style compressor across the master inserts...and that works real well....I normally mix on a v series neve..and that is my weapon of choice but sometimes bands these days cant afford that....This is a great second option....Ok

For the price I reckon their an awsome board to have in your arsenal...along with some great outboard gear...

BA
Old 19th January 2009
  #14
Here for the gear
 

I have used PM1000's in live context for years. Cut my teeth on one back in the 80's. Yeah they have a problem with the headroom on the subs. And there is no proper stereo buss. Just 4 busses matrixed to 4 busses. And some have a habit of going into oscillation when sends/subs are cranked.
From what I understand the submasters are basically padded down versions of the mic amp.
On the other hand, I have used PM1000's for recording and find the mic pre to be pretty awesome. The eq is good in some limited instances. If you are only ever subtracting freqs its kinda nice and smooth. On kick the 4k is actually nice.
Now if I was recording stuff besides metal, punk or hip hop I wouldn't want something so colored and gainy sounding. Acoustic guitar isnt gonna sound good. Neither is most folk music.
But I love what these things do for guitar! And with the right kit and mics they kill on drums. you just gotta evade that output buss!
I think where these guys excel is when you are recording on prosumer DAW hardware. It's such a polar opposite of the sound you get out of MOTU/Maudio meets Mackie.
I am actually looking at a few milkcrates full of PM1000 parts that are gonna end up as a small side car with some kind of mixbuss. The rest is goin up on the bay.
Old 4th March 2012
  #15
Here for the gear
 

Apples & Oranges

Quote:
Originally Posted by brendley View Post
Thanks all for getting back to me...and thanks for the explanation on discreet.

I must admit that the gain structure on the pre amp is something I may agree with...SOMETIMES it is either to loud or too soft cause it jumps mainly at 10 or 15db intervals.....but that is a rarity..I guess Recording is so different to using these desks in a live sense...I have been producing records for 18 years ..and would never think of walking up to a live guy and tell him I reckon the snare is to loud...and I wouldnt expect him to come in the studio and jump on my desk thinking he knew all about tracking...anyway...I think your right...these guys are not neve's but definately have their own distinct flavour....And it is not a bad sounding one...I use the pre amps occaisionally as an option to my aea trp pre and my amek...9098...and it does sound very smooth and warm...I then also use the board to mix ...ie summing desk with a ssl style compressor across the master inserts...and that works real well....I normally mix on a v series neve..and that is my weapon of choice but sometimes bands these days cant afford that....This is a great second option....Ok

For the price I reckon their an awsome board to have in your arsenal...along with some great outboard gear...

BA
Your Right, 1st the PM Haters are "Live Sound Guy's" and no doubt Know their ****. 2nd they're referring to an UN MODDED PM 1000 Board, NOT "MODDED" PM 1000 modules ( Lunchboxed) . 3rd Once "Modded" they'll compare very favorably ( and in some instances KILL) any "Boutique Pre" out there in a RECORDING SITUATION.I own an All Analog "Old School" Recording Studio in Brooklyn and the "Modded Japa-Neve's" are my "Go To" Pre for electric guitar,I own a Stephen Sank "Modded" T.L Audio PA-2 and a Tab Funkenwerks V-72 in addition I have a "modded" Altec 1599b & a Jim Williams "modded" Soundcraft Delta 200....I can get any texture from classic EMI ( V-72) to Pristine Un Colored High Speed Non-Texture ( Audio Upgrades) and STILL the PM 1000 is my first choice for electric guitar ( once "modded") I highly recommend and applaud the purchase and if you "mod" them correctly you can laugh at the guy who bought DW Fearns, Brent, Manly etc.. Let your EARS decide not your eye's or supposed "pedigree".
Old 4th March 2012
  #16
Lives for gear
 
greatgreatriver's Avatar
 

I love my simple and small vibe looker ->> Yamaha RM804. The preamp sounds good, don't know why but it works great for my needs. I could easily do a whole record with those pre's.

Peace
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