The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Horizontal monitor speaker - tweeter inside or outside
Old 7th January 2008
  #1
Lives for gear
 
TobyToby's Avatar
 

Horizontal monitor speaker - tweeter inside or outside

I am rearranging my place at the moment. I tried both horizontal placement versions, with the tweeter inside and outside. It seems this either sounds alright. Just for curiosity, is there any scientific explanation for a positioning which should be favored. -I can't see a rule, one studio has the tweeter outside, an other one on the inside. It almost seems like a religious or random thing.
Old 7th January 2008
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Savernake's Avatar
 

I'd like to know this as well, though the one thing I have been told is that upright is better anyway. Not sure why.
Old 7th January 2008
  #3
Lives for gear
 
TobyToby's Avatar
 

I reckon, if the speaker are upright you will have more of the same distance from all the speaker cones to your ear. But upright is not allowed in my place
Old 7th January 2008
  #4
Lives for gear
 

Most monitors are DEFINITELY designed to be oriented one way or the other.
It also seems that horizontal with the tweeter above the woofer is the preferred design.

Here I say that and I have a pair of JBL 4401s on my meter bridge that are not sitting horizontal.

Also, all of the pairs of Yamaha NS-10s that I have ever seen were lying on their "sides."
I guess that in all of the years that ANY monitors sat on the meter bridge of consoles I used, being able to see past them was a prime reason they were lying down.
You get used to them lying down, so they stay that way!

It definitely moves the image inward by a few inches to have the tweeters on the inside.

I guess that the distance from where the monitors physically sit and where the listener sits is going to dictate the best position to a degree.
The triangle between the drivers and the listener will have longer sides (by a few inches) if the tweets are oriented outside of the LF drivers.

This makes me want to play with my JBL 4401s now!
Old 7th January 2008
  #5
Whenever I've had to do this, I just "defaulted" to having the tweeters on the outside, seemed like that would give the widest breadth to the overall sound... but I never even thought about it, just did it, instinctively... like the way I do pretty much everything.
Old 7th January 2008
  #6
Gear Head
 

I know when I was watching some video on Mercenary of them trying out a pair of Focals, one of the first things they did was turn them on their side. Who knows why, though.
Old 7th January 2008
  #7
Lives for gear
 
McPhaul's Avatar
I know that they are not the best, but from the Event manual for the TR8's ..."When placing them in a horizontal positioin, orient the cabinets with the high frequency drivers pointing to the outside, away from each other."

I assume that it would be the same for other monitors as well.

http://www.event1.com/index/manuals/TR_man.pdf
Old 7th January 2008
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Since bass info is typically centered in a mix and since mids and highs are more directional in nature, makes sense to have the woofers to the middle.
Old 7th January 2008
  #9
Lives for gear
 
Mike Brown's Avatar
 

Congrats on the monitors!

Eh its fairly subjective me thinks.

Most monitors i've seen on their sides are tweeters out. This gives a "wider" stereo image as the tweeters (hf) is more "directional" than low frequency content.

Keep in mind though I am sure many people on GS have their monitors the other way and make astonishing mixes.

Try both ways/upsidedown/rightside up (who cares if the labels are upside down!)

Also - as long as it ends up sounding good... who cares?

Rock on dude!
Old 7th January 2008
  #10
Lives for gear
 
TobyToby's Avatar
 

My monitors are designed to be upright, but this is against my desk form factor.

I moved those beasts twice and did some more focused listening tests with tunes from Eric Serra - The Professional, Anna Nebretko-La Traviata, Pain- Nothing Remains the Same . . . in each case.
Now, for myself, I have noticed a bit better image definition if the tweeters are on the outside –just as they have been positioned since years in my former room.
Old 7th January 2008
  #11
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TobyToby View Post
Just for curiosity, is there any scientific explanation for a positioning which should be favored. -I can't see a rule, one studio has the tweeter outside, an other one on the inside.

the one that offers the best balance of a sound you like and performance that delivers. the only way to suss that out is to try it.

not all tweets fire the same top-to-bottom as they do side-to-side, so some monitors really don't perform well on their sides. but the consequences of having the tweeter closer to your ears than the other driver(s), or vice-versa, should be pretty obvious even on casual listening. phase relationships change, and you'll hear a different balance across the spectra. imaging will be different too.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 7th January 2008
  #12
Lives for gear
 
plexisys's Avatar
 

tweeters to the outside ALWAYS.
Old 18th October 2013
  #13
Here for the gear
 

Tweeters to the inside...

Alesis makes a good case for inside tweeters in their documentation. It creates a smoother, more consistent sweet spot, despite the illusion of a "narrower" image. Neumann's new KH310 monitors are sold individually as left/right units, and they place their tweeters to the inside as well. I own a pair of these and have tried them both ways: I much prefer the inside tweeters for a more natural, honest sound.
Old 21st October 2013
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Harvey Gerst's Avatar
The Trident HG3's are designed with inward facing mids and highs.
Old 21st October 2013
  #15
Here for the gear
 

I don't know what the scientific explanation for such placement would be, but speaking from the firsthand experiance ... I experimented with my HS50s ... had them laying horizontaly both with tweeters outside and inside ... I liked the sound and definition better when tweeters were outside ...sensed wider soundfield and separation when they were outside BUT ... eventually I placed them vertically as they were supposed to be and the difference was quite obvious... when they were placed horizontally there was considerable loss of depth and dimension ... reverb tails especially were not as defined, as well all the depth dimension was reduced and blurred...
That was my experiance ...

199
Old 24th June 2014
  #16
Here for the gear
 

I just rebuilt a pair of old vintage Sony 12", 3-way, hi-fi speaker cabs to take about 9.5 inches of height out of them so they'd fit under a custom console I'm installing. They are some of the best sounding hi-fi speakers I've ever heard which is why I couldn't bare to part with them.

Everything was stacked before (which is partly the culprit for their excessive height), but now I've turned the mid-range and tweeters so they are in-line horizontally above the woofer. I obviously made the speaker pair mirror images, but I'm wondering which way will sound better before permanent installation, tweeters out, or mid-range out, when the woofer is still below both either way?

I'm certain that trying it out both ways and actually listening will be the best option, but it's interesting to learn what others have tried and are saying.

I shall try and post my update once I've tested it both ways and have determined a winner. What I'm hoping my conclusion NOT to be is that mucking with the original cabinet design prevents good sound regardless of positioning.

Only time will tell...
Old 24th June 2014
  #17
Lives for gear
 
hasbeen's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by gyrofly View Post
I just rebuilt a pair of old vintage Sony 12", 3-way, hi-fi speaker cabs to take about 9.5 inches of height out of them so they'd fit under a custom console I'm installing. They are some of the best sounding hi-fi speakers I've ever heard which is why I couldn't bare to part with them.

Everything was stacked before (which is partly the culprit for their excessive height), but now I've turned the mid-range and tweeters so they are in-line horizontally above the woofer. I obviously made the speaker pair mirror images, but I'm wondering which way will sound better before permanent installation, tweeters out, or mid-range out, when the woofer is still below both either way?

I'm certain that trying it out both ways and actually listening will be the best option, but it's interesting to learn what others have tried and are saying.

I shall try and post my update once I've tested it both ways and have determined a winner. What I'm hoping my conclusion NOT to be is that mucking with the original cabinet design prevents good sound regardless of positioning.

Only time will tell...
Post a pic or two?
Old 16th March 2017
  #18
Here for the gear
Tweeters inside ;)

Hi there, i was just trying different speaker positions lately and saw this studio in this manual with the tweeters inside.

https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...1A/ds1031a.pdf

Just tried it, and i can say that with the tweeters inside you get a more controlled sound. Less stereo image (coming from the high freq, but better from the mids - tested with percussions etc), little more bass, center distinction and i like the mids a bit better. I have them quite wide open. Will work a bit and see how it translates in the real world !

Changing position seems to be a good way to check older mixes again!
Old 11th May 2019
  #19
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariskokou View Post
Hi there, i was just trying different speaker positions lately and saw this studio in this manual with the tweeters inside.

https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...1A/ds1031a.pdf

Just tried it, and i can say that with the tweeters inside you get a more controlled sound. Less stereo image (coming from the high freq, but better from the mids - tested with percussions etc), little more bass, center distinction and i like the mids a bit better. I have them quite wide open. Will work a bit and see how it translates in the real world !

Changing position seems to be a good way to check older mixes again!

It seems to me there is some confusion in the manual. One photo (the larger of the two) shows the tweeters on the inside while sitting on the console meter bridge. Then below that to the right it specifically shows the monitors in Horizontal Position with tweeters facing outward.

My take, based on absolutely nothing, and this being Gearslutz the tweeters should be outside with the woofers to the center. This way the lower frequencies even though they are less directional will hit the body better you can feel the sum better. Having the high frequencies to the outside allow them to strike the ears more directly giving the ear sensation that higher frequencies provide. I find clarity with the higher frequencies separated in this way. Again this is based on nothing except years of experience mixing live monitors for rock bands. Tweeters Out.
Old 13th May 2019
  #20
Gear Nut
 

the HEDD type 07 manual says that vertical orientation is preferred, but if horizontal is required, the tweeters should be on the inside.

Quote: "otherwise the acoustic image will be distorted."

-John
Old 13th May 2019
  #21
Gear Addict
 

I'm buying into the Tweeters inside argument. i had always assumed that it should be the other way around - but old dogs don't mind new tricks : occasionally.
Old 13th May 2019
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Bstapper's Avatar
 

It is a matter oh physics and geometry.

The answer is dependent on the coverage pattern of the high frequency assembly, physical obstructions, the width of speaker placement, and distance to the mix position. First step would be to determine if the coverage pattern is asymmetrical and is conducive to being rotated without detriment.
Old 13th May 2019
  #23
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Many home studio rigs I've worked have been in rooms that had so little treatment, I couldn't close my eyes and accurately point at the tweeters. So tweeters in vs out would make no difference.
Old 13th May 2019
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bstapper View Post
It is a matter oh physics and geometry.

The answer is dependent on the coverage pattern of the high frequency assembly, physical obstructions, the width of speaker placement, and distance to the mix position. First step would be to determine if the coverage pattern is asymmetrical and is conducive to being rotated without detriment.
Thank you! I'm reading this thread and thinking "No one is saying it depends on the width and distance!"

It only took 11 years from when the thread was started until you finally said it

Simply: Try to have the 2 tweeters and your head form the 3 corners of an equilateral triangle. If your set up is such that the speakers must be relatively close together then put the tweeters to the outside but if the speakers are placed wide then tweeters on the inside. Listen and adjust.
Old 13th May 2019
  #25
Gear Addict
IMO, vertical alignment is the way to go.

Here's why:
Let's say you're working on a track, and you've got a triangle and the floor tom both panned the same amount to the left.

With tweeters outside, the triangle will be perceived to be further left than the floor tom.
Tweeters inside will result in the reverse.


All of that is assuming that you're perfectly on-axis with the monitor. As soon as you move to the side, you're likely to get a dip in the output as you're creating a path length difference between the tweeter and midrange driver.

It's not such a big problem for 3-way cabinets with the bass driver to one side (the KH310 is fine, for example) as the path length difference will still be small compared to the longer wavelength of the low/mid crossover.

Chris
Old 13th May 2019
  #26
Lives for gear
 
Bstapper's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
IMO, vertical alignment is the way to go.

Here's why:
Let's say you're working on a track, and you've got a triangle and the floor tom both panned the same amount to the left.

With tweeters outside, the triangle will be perceived to be further left than the floor tom.
Tweeters inside will result in the reverse.


All of that is assuming that you're perfectly on-axis with the monitor. As soon as you move to the side, you're likely to get a dip in the output as you're creating a path length difference between the tweeter and midrange driver.

It's not such a big problem for 3-way cabinets with the bass driver to one side (the KH310 is fine, for example) as the path length difference will still be small compared to the longer wavelength of the low/mid crossover.

Chris
This is just my opinion, but you are "swatting a gnats" here. I doubt the final orientation of a listener's system is going to be optimal enough to call someone out for a triangle being a few inches different in a stereo mix than anticipated - and that is assuming that by the time the audio reaches your ears that you have indeed been able to tell the two sources are not in the same space.

It is more important, in my opinion, to make sure that you are not introducing physical reflections from other equipment, that the tweeters are optimally equidistant from each other and the listening position, and *most important* that you have not completely destroyed the monitor's ability to do its job by rotating a speaker that has an asymmetrical horizontal/vertical coverage (without rotatable high frequency drivers) so that the "wide" coverage pattern is not vertical instead of horizontal.

I see folks rotate speakers all of the time without also rotating the drivers to accommodate for the correct intended coverage pattern which is going to result in all kinds of issues that are undesirable, to say the least.

Especially with studio monitors where wave guides sometimes veer into the esoteric.

Cheers,
Brock
Old 13th May 2019
  #27
Lives for gear
 

There can't be a science behind it until manufacturers actually start publishing coverage data!

I just took a quick look through a few common monitors documentation and NONE of them list dispersion or coverage info. Why not? Is it because you are going to point these directly at your head and listen from 3 feet away and that's it?

I work in cinema and all cinema speakers list what the vertical and horizontal coverage patterns are. Some even give you the option to rotate the drivers (as mentioned above).

An example is a unit I'm working into a design currently, listed as 30 degree vertical and 80 degree horizontal. You can imagine how this would change if it were laid on its side.

So are most monitors just firing at 90 degrees by 90 degrees then? Maybe tighter?

As far as I'm concerned, in a well designed system and room, tweeters in or out should not make a difference. With speakers standing vertically, do your hi hats sound like they are higher on the vertical plane than your bass guitar?


EDIT: Funny, I was just thinking about the fact that in my Mackie HR824's, the tweeter doesn't rotate but the logo does! They must work fine tweeters in or out as the logo can go either way!
Old 13th May 2019
  #28
Lives for gear
 
Bstapper's Avatar
 

I think most of the low end stuff they intend to be close enough to conical coverage with a large enough coverage pattern that they just don't bother with including the info in the specs. But there are definitely those out there that should as you can look at a waveguide for a lot of them and know immediately that it isn't a symmetrical conical coverage pattern.

But when you move up the foodchain they seem to be more prone to publishing the info.

Here's a higher end JBL - lists the info. Waveguide is obviously asymmetrical just by looking at the design:
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/r...08p-mkii#Specs

Here's the cheapie JBL. Same science behind the waveguide and obviously a wider horizontal coverage when oriented correctly but no data:
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/r...s/lsr305#Specs

And yes - totally agree. They should all be publishing the info and if an unaware user rotates that poor puppy so that they suddenly have 120 degrees of high frequency spraying vertically onto every surface then things are gonna' get iffy.

Cheers,
Brock
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
rjay / Low End Theory
17
ShaneFontane / So Much Gear, So Little Time
1
jbible / So Much Gear, So Little Time
4
bachconnelly / Low End Theory
7

Forum Jump
Forum Jump