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What would be a good mic (and pre) to capture above 10K of a distorted guitar?
Old 21st September 2007
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

What would be a good mic (and pre) to capture above 10K of a distorted guitar?

Hi!

I am trying to record a wide range electronic distorted guitar for an up coming project.
(3 piece melodic girl punk band)
I will ask her to play 3 or 4 guitar takes with very high boosted and low boosted, but also, I would like to record each take with 2 mics to capture the very high and low.
I have a Royer 121 and a Neve 1073 for the low part, but what about the high?
If you have some suggestions to capture the high end of a distorted guitar, esp above 10K, please let me know.

Best,
Old 21st September 2007
  #2
Lives for gear
 
jmikeperkins's Avatar
An EV RE-20/PL-20 mic can capture the high end nicely without being harsh and can be close miked. Another idea would be a room mic like a Neumann U87 to blend with your close mic.
Old 21st September 2007
  #3


Earthworks makes very accurate mics with flat response to 30k.

There are a lot of pre-amps that will suit your needs here - Mackie to Universal Audio, GML, and (again) Earthworks.




-tINY

Old 22nd September 2007
  #4
Registered User
 
Rick Sutton's Avatar
 

If you've got a guitar amp that produces anything above 10k...........protect your hearing. Ouch.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #5
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
This is not really helpful but I almost always cut off every thing above 10k on distorted guitars in the mix.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #6
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Seamus TM's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton View Post
If you've got a guitar amp that produces anything above 10k...........protect your hearing. Ouch.
Yeah, I was going to say that I think that most amps don't produce anything over 10k... the air around the amp, maybe... in teeny tiny amounts...
Old 22nd September 2007
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
Amadeuz's Avatar
 

Try the BLUE Woodpecker.
Ribbon qualities and plenty of crisp.

If you need something even sharper than this, try an akg 415e added to the Royer, and mix to taste.

It's an unusual scenario were one desires those frequencies, but hey, why not...

Old 22nd September 2007
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

Thank you very much. I will try those.

About above 10k, I sometimes boost it, and get good results for modern rock bands.
I often do that when doing loud rock bands. (limp bizkits like) You have to mic the amp anyway to match the phase and make the close miced sound.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #9
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Just FYI, just about every guitar amp speaker only reproduces signal up to about 7kHz or so, hence the reason a Shure SM57 is considered the classic electric guitar amp mic. In other words, if you're miking an electric guitar amp, don't worry about capturing 10k coming out of the speaker, because it ain't.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #10
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Yeah. I thought the whole idea of a Guitar speaker was their limited freq response in the top end.

I rarely EQ anything above 3k for Electric Guitar but if you dig it.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #11
Lives for gear
 
stagefright13's Avatar
 

Hmm an SM7B into an API 312 will capture the entire range accurately and with a little style. And you can hit the presence boost switch. Then you can decide what to lop off after that.... As far as I know amps can go to 12-15k or so depending on the amp and speaker combo. But I never actually measured it. I think when you push them the bandwidth goes down and they start compressing. To my ears anyway... YMMV

Try boosting 10k on a guitar track. You will hear it.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #12
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elambo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nama View Post
If you have some suggestions to capture the high end of a distorted guitar, esp above 10K, please let me know.
Maybe if you put a crash cymbal next to the amp you'll get something above 10k. Otherwise, ain't much happening up there (if anything).
Old 22nd September 2007
  #13
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
Just FYI, just about every guitar amp speaker only reproduces signal up to about 7kHz or so...

they don't stop there, they just start rolling off, albeit steeply. but if you crank a 16k shelf on elecs you'll hear it, there's gold in them thar hills.

personally, 7-8k is where i start rolling crap *off*, it's all just hash and fizz. 3k-5k, these are magic hi freqs for this instrument; i don't want bright, i want bite.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #14
Gear Addict
 
mahler007's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Sutton View Post
If you've got a guitar amp that produces anything above 10k...........protect your hearing. Ouch.
Indeed- electric guitar amps tend to roll off at 8KHz at the most, so if you're trying to capture something higher than that wth a mic on a speaker, good luck...

One thing I've found that works really well is combining a direct track with a mic'd track. The direct track ALWAYS seems to capture somthing special in the super high end (>8K) that the mic does not. When I have needed this part of the spectrum, I have found that mixing it in *just right* gives me a very special sound- that super articulate "pick on the string" sound that is generally not available (or even necessarily desireable in most cases) with just a mic'd track...

FWIW, when I take this approach, I often mix the direct track anywhere from 10 to 20 db below the mic'd track- just enough to add that bit of edge and articulation...

Good luck!

Cheers,
Andrew
Old 22nd September 2007
  #15
84K
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84K's Avatar
10k!!!

This is a joke, right?
Old 22nd September 2007
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

Thank you for your responses.
It is not a joke, and I am surprised.
Boosting high end of a distorted guitar was a pretty common technic, I thought.
Well, I like doing it all the time, esp when I produce loud rock bands.
I always boost high end with the 1073. (the top filter at 10K)
and boost super low end with the 1073 (40hz to 60hz, forgot exact numbers on the 1073) and match them together.

I was wondering if any (maybe a condenser mic) new mic could place in front of a loud amp, and capture the high end, so that I could get more of it by boosting it later.

Well, if this technic was not common, I should not have mentioned it. heh
Old 22nd September 2007
  #17
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm View Post
This is not really helpful but I almost always cut off every thing above 10k on distorted guitars in the mix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mumblesound View Post
Yeah, I was going to say that I think that most amps don't produce anything over 10k... the air around the amp, maybe... in teeny tiny amounts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
Just FYI, just about every guitar amp speaker only reproduces signal up to about 7kHz or so, hence the reason a Shure SM57 is considered the classic electric guitar amp mic. In other words, if you're miking an electric guitar amp, don't worry about capturing 10k coming out of the speaker, because it ain't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher View Post
Yeah. I thought the whole idea of a Guitar speaker was their limited freq response in the top end.

I rarely EQ anything above 3k for Electric Guitar but if you dig it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo View Post
Maybe if you put a crash cymbal next to the amp you'll get something above 10k. Otherwise, ain't much happening up there (if anything).
Quote:
Originally Posted by u b k View Post

personally, 7-8k is where i start rolling crap *off*, it's all just hash and fizz.


gregoire

del
ubk
.
yeah...

The HF content of distorted GTR sounds is an interesting discussion IMHO. Personally, I found when I moved over to using Pro Tools / digital - that the HF frequency range started to become 'a problem' for me - enter 'fix it' equipment like ribbon mic's and the Fatso... Perhaps the digital capture of these frequencies is actually unpleasant..?

I bet if you said something else like "What would be a good mic (and pre) to capture the higher frequencies of a distorted guitar?"

This thread would have turned out differently!

Old 22nd September 2007
  #18
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Let's clarify a little here. It's still true that there's little to nothing above 7K or so coming out of a guitar speaker. Just check the frequency range specs for your average guitar speaker (i.e. Celestion Alnico Blue = 75Hz-5kHz).

This doesn't mean that cranking EQ above that after the fact doesn't have an audible effect. But it's important to understand the reason for this, and it's not because you're boosting fundamental frequencies above 7K, it's because you're boosting overtones or harmonics of lower fundamentals. This may be more desirable than, say boosting the fundamental itself, depending on what you're looking to accomplish, which is why you can grab 10k on your EQ, crank it and hear an audible change.

But long story short, you don't need any special extended frequency microphone to capture what's coming out of a woofer, I mean guitar speaker.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #19
Gear Addict
 
dropblacksky's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nama View Post
Thank you for your responses.
It is not a joke, and I am surprised.
Boosting high end of a distorted guitar was a pretty common technic, I thought.
Well, I like doing it all the time, esp when I produce loud rock bands.
I always boost high end with the 1073. (the top filter at 10K)
and boost super low end with the 1073 (40hz to 60hz, forgot exact numbers on the 1073) and match them together.

I was wondering if any (maybe a condenser mic) new mic could place in front of a loud amp, and capture the high end, so that I could get more of it by boosting it later.

Well, if this technic was not common, I should not have mentioned it. heh


Boosting highs isn't uncommon...but I would say with electric guitars, "highs" usually refer to 5-7k or so. A lot of people I know start filtering guitars above there to clean things up. Also 40-60hz is a strange area to boost IMO...the lowest fundamental on an electric guitar is about 80hz (standard E)....you're just boosting subharmonic rumble at 40-60 hz, even if we're talking about downtuned guitars.

If you like the sound of what you're doing, that's all that matters. There are no rules, just a crapload of opinions...and mine is that 40Hz and 10K on electric guitar are weird frequency areas to focus on...
Old 22nd September 2007
  #20
Gear Head
 
SuperTorus's Avatar
 

This is a spectral view of a little distorted guitar sample I've recorded recently. Lots of stuff going on above 10khz...



Old 22nd September 2007
  #21
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
[QUOTE=Nama;1514044}
Boosting high end of a distorted guitar was a pretty common technic, I thought.
Well, I like doing it all the time, esp when I produce loud rock bands.
I always boost high end with the 1073. (the top filter at 10K)
and boost super low end with the 1073 (40hz to 60hz, forgot exact numbers on the 1073) and match them together. [/QUOTE]

Nama - FYI, boosting "10k" on a shelving EQ will bring up frequencies FAR lower than 10K. It just means that the freq. is "centered" at 10k. On the 1073 (I don't have one so I'm guessing a bit) I would assume that a boost of say 8dB would be bring up 3k at least a couple dB, it would also be bringing up 6k maybe 4dB. It depends on the slope of the EQ band. Either way, saying I want to EQ above 10K on the guitar is kind of a misnomer, but I understand what you're after. It is more likely that that is what you're hearing - vs. guitar amp freq's above 10k. Cheers, bp
Old 22nd September 2007
  #22
Gear Guru
 
drBill's Avatar
PS - try a U87 or Gefell M71 or UM70.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #23
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Gear Tramp's Avatar
 

haha!

boost it all you want! it will sound like crap in a mix!

hooray!
Old 22nd September 2007
  #24
84K
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84K's Avatar
OK. We should stop the negative talk.

How about, you post a sample to show us where you're at and see if we can relate to the high frequencies that you feel you are lacking. Let's try to make this productive.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #25
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
I am still not answering the questions, but.....


If any one has not tried it, many times using a low pass filter to cut off all the guitar hash and fizz above about 8k, when it is in the mix can actually make the guitars sound brighter.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #26
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robot gigante's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
On the 1073 (I don't have one so I'm guessing a bit) I would assume that a boost of say 8dB would be bring up 3k at least a couple dB, it would also be bringing up 6k maybe 4dB. It depends on the slope of the EQ band. Either way, saying I want to EQ above 10K on the guitar is kind of a misnomer, but I understand what you're after. It is more likely that that is what you're hearing - vs. guitar amp freq's above 10k. Cheers, bp
You're assuming correctly.

Hey Nama, have you tried using the mid band of the 1073 instead of the top shelving EQ? Maybe it's the 1073's I've been using for a long time but to my ears the mid band is simply golden for boosting the top end of guitars. I like it a lot better than the high shelf for most stuff personally, but maybe that's just me. And like dr. Bill says, what you are most likely digging when you boost the 1073 shelf is a lift around around the 3-6k range and not extended highs per se, I think.

Personally, I think the Royer/1073 is a dynamite combo for distorted guitars, and you may find that the combination of the Royer's mids and the kickass thing that the 1073 EQ does when you boost the top will get you results that you may like better than using a cleaner mic/pre combo with a more extended frequency range. I know that's the case for me.

That said, the top end on a Pacifica is pretty nice too, you may like it. It is more open than a 1073 in the top but still has the business going on with the midrange.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #27
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Sigma's Avatar
our neve 1107's added 5 dB at 5k when you turned the hf up 3db at 10k..go figure

middle meat on heavy gtrs is bet 600-800 grind is 1.8-2.2k edge is 3-5k above that and yer fighting cymbals for no reason..i never saw anyone add anythig above 5k on heavy rock gtrs
Old 22nd September 2007
  #28
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sleepwalker's Avatar
 

No offense, but I'm not sure you need special gear to capture hi frequency audio coming from a guitar amp. Also... don't expect much hi frequency audio in the first place because guitar cabs are bandpassed anyway. I suppose you could use a bass amp, a clean solid state pre, and some small diaphram condensers. Don't forget to keep that tone knob on the guitar wide open!

If I were you, I'd let other things take up that space if you want a bright record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nama View Post
Hi!

I am trying to record a wide range electronic distorted guitar for an up coming project.
(3 piece melodic girl punk band)
I will ask her to play 3 or 4 guitar takes with very high boosted and low boosted, but also, I would like to record each take with 2 mics to capture the very high and low.
I have a Royer 121 and a Neve 1073 for the low part, but what about the high?
If you have some suggestions to capture the high end of a distorted guitar, esp above 10K, please let me know.

Best,
Old 22nd September 2007
  #29
84K
Lives for gear
 
84K's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
our neve 1107's added 5 dB at 5k when you turned the hf up 3db at 10k..go figure

middle meat on heavy gtrs is bet 600-800 grind is 1.8-2.2k edge is 3-5k above that and yer fighting cymbals for no reason..i never saw anyone add anythig above 5k on heavy rock gtrs
6-800 can also be the source of mud. Sometimes I will boost 80 and cut at 800 for that modern thud-and-buzz that a lot of people like. A lot of the modern guitars get their grind at 3k. Its a buzzy world these days my friend. Tone is becoming a lost art.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #30
The Distressor's "daddy"
 
Dave Derr's Avatar
 

As has been said already... theres not a whole lot of useful stuff up above 10K on most heavy distorted guitars. Maybe some good Hiss? But Id be willing to bet thousands of favorite heavy guitar sounds could have everything above 10K removed and you wouldnt even notice... and perhaps because its already been mostly removed....

Leave the above 10K area for cymbals, vocals, acoustic instruments etc.

Looking at spectral analysis to figure out what youre missing in a sound or mix... is like looking at a painting and noting all the missing colors. Its about context and fitting together things artistically. However, I suppose sometimes its useful to find resonances or peaks.
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