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Paying for Internships, New Trend??
Old 22nd September 2007
  #61
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zuso's Avatar
 

Hahaha, well, we all know if you start sending enough money to people to teach, somehow it'll all just end up in a football program eventually......
Old 22nd September 2007
  #62
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kafka's Avatar
I think the $1000 weed-out fee is a good deal. 6 months in a working tracking/overdub studio with all the time you can eat, with a guarantee of no other interns around sounds like a solid opportunity to learn. It's definitely better than having to fight it out with 5 or 6 other people who only want to learn occasionally but still occupy your time and space.

And as far as toilets goes, I used to work in a gas station and had to clean the toilet there for $3.75/hr. I assure you that even though I was paid, I did not learn anything at that job.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #63
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman View Post
We should just get Gearslutz accredited.

Members can vote on who's giving the most informational teaching and $$$ can be sent their way.

Moderators can act as Principles.

It's the future

That's really not such a bad idea...wouldn't you rather hire someone a fellow gearslut said was a great guy/not going to irritate clients/delete the project from disk etc, rather than chancing it with a full sailer/SAEer/uni grad?
Old 22nd September 2007
  #64
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You know, it's really not to hard to weed out idiots. If they don't have a resume- out the door. If they have one, but it reads like a 4th grade book report- out the door. If they come in cocky and stoned- out the door.
One place in town has a written test for prospective interns. It's not really a pass/fail thing, it's more to see what level they're at in terms of digital transfers, protools, ssl, etc. You can muck up the test and still get in if you make a good impression, but they have you retake the test at regular intervals to see if you're learning anything. But obviously if you don't get a single question right you're not ready to intern.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #65
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
No offense man, but you have a mix/overdub room. I know, I know, it's a studio. But not the way Avatar or Ocean Way are studios. And you may very well have a studio's worth of gear in there, so you're a little closer than a lot of people with a "studio" in their spare bedroom. I think we're mainly talking about the guys with a Dell and an Mbox acting like they're Dr. Dre or whatever. I've got a mix/overdub room myself, so don't feel bad.
You should maybe do a search about Mike Tarsia and Sigma studios in Pliladelphia, then you'll immediately apologize.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #66
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Sigma's Avatar
you want to see a REAL 180 about "home studio" capabilities?...i wrote this in 2001

2001 - May: Demise Cries Unwise (Tarsia)


i have totally changed my views since then..people change.. if not why live?

i can do more with automation with my PT rig than with any analog console..i have more choices and more instances of eq's, dynamics etc than in any hardware equipment closets in any traditional studio..i don't have to worry about intermittent patch chords, banging on the side of a 910 or deciding what 4 things i get to use the pultecs on..and i don't have a session coming in behind me where i know i must finish and if i tried to reset all the gear later i'd come close but not exact

plus today acoustic design and products are well in advance of the build it and mod it as it grows on you 1960's studio construction

are the best plug in close to the originals? ..i had a designer of a well known hardware product say the clones of his stuff were 80% there..for a designer to admit that a plug in is that close prob means 90% there and i can deal with that any day when balancing cost, number of instances, maintenence and really what 99.9% of the buying public can really descern


i remember a few of my fathers mixes accidently going to pressing with the multitrack dolbys out OMG how terrible..the songs were still hits and people still glowed about the sound quality..taking oneself too seriously can be a character fault..i wish i had seen the light earlier rather than beating the large studio dead horse.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #67
Moderator emeritus
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by upinflames View Post
I've been trying to find some place in my area where I can sit in on session and do some grunt work (getting coffee/lunch and helping clean up) but haven't had much luck. I will assist/intern at any studio in Nashville/Murfreesboro/Franklin for free 7 days a week as long as it doesn't conflict with class, and would never ask question/give opinions unless given I was addressed or the session was over.
You haven't had much luck? How hard have you been trying? Off hand, I can think of a half dozen excellent engineers who don't have interns this semester....
Old 22nd September 2007
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musiclab View Post
You should maybe do a search about Mike Tarsia and Sigma studios in Pliladelphia, then you'll immediately apologize.
No, I know who Mike is and I've seen pics of his room. I'm not questioning what he does, or the results he gets. I just think a studio is someplace with a live room and a few iso booths where you can at least cut drums. This is why we get people talking about all the "phat beats" they make in their "studio", then you see some pictures and they're running fruity loops on windows 95 and their tracks are laughable. There has to be some differentiation between booth and a studio, and between amateur and pro.

If it makes you feel better I'll clarify: Sigma, what you have is a professional mix/overdub room.

Everybody happy?
Old 22nd September 2007
  #69
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
No, I know who Mike is and I've seen pics of his room. I'm not questioning what he does, or the results he gets. I just think a studio is someplace with a live room and a few iso booths where you can at least cut drums. This is why we get people talking about all the "phat beats" they make in their "studio", then you see some pictures and they're running fruity loops on windows 95 and their tracks are laughable. There has to be some differentiation between booth and a studio, and between amateur and pro.

If it makes you feel better I'll clarify: Sigma, what you have is a professional mix/overdub room.

Everybody happy?
hahahah

i never was unhappy ...

the funniest thing is and my old man drilled i in my head when i was setting up my room.."sigma's biggest hits came out of a room i hand built that had a side WINDOW with a WINDOW ac unit in the control room..and "acoustic treatment" of fiberglass hung and cut till i got a good room sound.. get over it.." [ this was BEFORE we had acoustical designers redo the room in the late 70's ] then he would name other major studios of the day and the crappy things they dealt with too

like i said before he looked a this site once and said "WTF..don't theses people have anyting better to talk about?" err he's from the Bill Putnam 90% BS 10% talent theory of engineering..when digital reverbs came out we still kept our plates but he would go.."i am not fiddling with all those parameters [lexicon stuff] ,,if there isn't a preset that i can just change the time and predelay to make it sound right i'll just try another piece of gear"..which when we were hanging out with Phil Ramone, phil said almost the same exact thing



..JDT thinks PT is incredible..

at least i don't need 6 tech people on salary to keep my room running
Old 22nd September 2007
  #70
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
You know, it's really not to hard to weed out idiots. If they don't have a resume- out the door. If they have one, but it reads like a 4th grade book report- out the door. If they come in cocky and stoned- out the door.
One place in town has a written test for prospective interns. It's not really a pass/fail thing, it's more to see what level they're at in terms of digital transfers, protools, ssl, etc. You can muck up the test and still get in if you make a good impression, but they have you retake the test at regular intervals to see if you're learning anything. But obviously if you don't get a single question right you're not ready to intern.
Gearslutz weeds out the idiots like nothing else.

It's not so much what they know or don't know, but the insistent arguing/stubbornness in the face of pride (not unlike a certian president ). It's beyond opinion after a certian point. The last I can think of started a thread about 1176's being over hyped. Then there was the SAE grad that argued with everyone about the 'sound' of tape from using ADAT's.

Probably the worst thing a school can do is give a person the belief that they actually know what they are doing. I'm not even sure if I know what I'm doing.

"I'm not young enough to know everything." --Oscar Wilde
Old 22nd September 2007
  #71
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I have to say here that not everyone that went to SAE/Full Sail/CRAS etc. is an idiot. I've met plenty of people from 4 year universities that were pretty dense as well. Plus people who came up entirely throught the studio system with no formal schooling, some of them are useless as well. I think the school thing really doesn't mean anything, if you're good you're good, who cares how you got that way?

Now if someone wants to start a thread regarding the questionable ethics and dishonest recruiting tactics that these schools use to bring in students, well then that might be an interesting discussion!
Old 22nd September 2007
  #72
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
I have to say here that not everyone that went to SAE/Full Sail/CRAS etc. is an idiot. I've met plenty of people from 4 year universities that were pretty dense as well. Plus people who came up entirely throught the studio system with no formal schooling, some of them are useless as well. I think the school thing really doesn't mean anything, if you're good you're good, who cares how you got that way?

Now if someone wants to start a thread regarding the questionable ethics and dishonest recruiting tactics that these schools use to bring in students, well then that might be an interesting discussion!
they are like trade schools offering wonderful opportunities in the wide open field of blacksmithing
PLUs
read my other post..they make it like you leave as an engineer when really you are just a novice assistant

out of over a few dozen people who assisted for me i'd say only 4 make a living music engineering in some capacity..and i only worked with the top assistants we had because nobody else could hack how demanding i was..my assistants set every thing up for tracking..i'd give them a console input and bussing list for sub groups and efx to set up for my mixes..they did alll the tape machine alignments etc etc and when i left the room to hit the head or make a call , if they were attentive, i'd let them sit on the console and cut overdubs like gtr , percussion etc to let them get a feel for pressure session work and let the clients check them out

the only thing i didn't let them do is run the tape machine when i was cutting [i had a hard tme in NY with the tape ops] i used to like to run/punch/ride myself while cutting
Old 22nd September 2007
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
I have to say here that not everyone that went to SAE/Full Sail/CRAS etc. is an idiot. I've met plenty of people from 4 year universities that were pretty dense as well. Plus people who came up entirely throught the studio system with no formal schooling, some of them are useless as well. I think the school thing really doesn't mean anything, if you're good you're good, who cares how you got that way?

Now if someone wants to start a thread regarding the questionable ethics and dishonest recruiting tactics that these schools use to bring in students, well then that might be an interesting discussion!
Well, yes. These schools advertise/market themselves as such. Think about the tuition they charge...who would really pay that kinda of coin to just start at a studio as a intern or at best, a bottom assistant (if they're lucky).

Maybe there are some students that know the limitations and unrealistic promises of these schools, but they are very rare animals. These schools are a business and the more students signing up (cash those loans), the more $$ they bring in. The only way to do so is recruit recruit recruit. How much of the real world truth will be revealed before they sign up?

The truth is that in the world of high-end recording studios not much has change in the way people get a start...from 30 years ago (before recording schools) to today. Other than there are now recording schools 'graduating' countless 'engineers' a year and less high-end studios with staff engineers to hire. These schools have to practice some fuzzy math to justify the promises they are making.

Like the Army said, 'Be all you can be'.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #74
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You guys both make valid points. The problem I had when I was starting out was that nobody would take me on as an intern since I hadn't been to school. So I did what everyone said to do and I went to school. When I got out I had to contend with everyone telling me I must not know much, because I went to school. So it's a catch-22.
Now I may be an exception to the rule, but I assure you I left school with a [B]lot[B] more knowledge than I went in with. The information is there, most of those kids just aren't that hungry for it. I know that I graduated with a lot more lab hours than I was required to have. It's just about how you take advantage of the time there. Yeah, one out of twenty SAE grads ever makes any money in audio. How many people with bachelor's degree's are still doing what they went to school for after 3 years? I know a lot who are waiting tables. There are no guarantees anymore when it comes to education. Sure the schools are misleading people with their recruiting, but the industry itself isn't helping.
And you don't have to start as "just" an intern either. I interned, but at the same time I was running live sound, tuning vocals and editing for local guys, and engineering on albums for a small gospel label. Did anyone else from my class have work that soon? A couple did. Probably not as much as me, but maybe I present myself better than they do. Some of them weren't really interested in working in the industry, they were musician's who wanted to engineer their own albums. One guy started an indie label. A few people are working in broadcast, a few more in live sound. The studio isn't the only place to find work in audio.
Old 22nd September 2007
  #75
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
And you don't have to start as "just" an intern either. I interned, but at the same time I was running live sound, tuning vocals and editing for local guys, and engineering on albums for a small gospel label. Did anyone else from my class have work that soon? A couple did. Probably not as much as me, but maybe I present myself better than they do. Some of them weren't really interested in working in the industry, they were musician's who wanted to engineer their own albums. One guy started an indie label. A few people are working in broadcast, a few more in live sound. The studio isn't the only place to find work in audio.
good points..quite a few of our assitants now do live club sound or av work or do radio advertising recording...that stuff would drive me nuts..
Old 23rd September 2007
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
Y....Yeah, one out of twenty SAE grads ever makes any money in audio. How many people with bachelor's degree's are still doing what they went to school for after 3 years? I know a lot who are waiting tables. There are no guarantees anymore when it comes to education. Sure the schools are misleading people with their recruiting, but the industry itself isn't helping. .
This gets into the whole perception of what college is or should be. Kids didn't originally go into college to make more $$$ in a job, colleges weren't job factories at first. The rich and privileged sent their kids to college for a true education across a wide variety of subjects, partly so they wouldn't be idiots and embarrass the family and partly to prepare them for taking over the family’s business/empire. They weren't interested in what income graduates made. Then came along trade schools, which specifically by design are job factories.

When more and more of middle class and lower families started sending kids to college, they demanded more of a guaranteed return on this 'investment.' Colleges adapted to this and with more and more college graduates, the business world started raising standards for positions...stakes were raised across the board.

Here is the thing about college IMO, it really teaches you How to learn...how to teach yourself to learn something on your own. A college can't hold your hand after you graduate and they can only teach you so much while in school, yet the most important thing they can teach you is how to learn on your own. Surprisingly not an easy task.

As soon as College or trade school graduates realize this, that graduating is just the start of a new education, things become much easier for them.

If it's one thing many here know about, it's learning on your own.
Old 23rd September 2007
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
good points..quite a few of our assitants now do live club sound or av work or do radio advertising recording...that stuff would drive me nuts..
Me too!
Old 23rd September 2007
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AURORA4DTH View Post
I just wanted to add a couple of quick things.
1. This is a great forum, I will be coming here often.
2. I dont mind the debate at all and i enjoy reading others views on what i did. It took me a little while to make the decision based on some of the things that you all are mentioning but in the end i thought it best to go through with it. Lets face it its not adding that much revenue to the studio but it really did weed out some kids (maybe good ones , maybe bad ones)
3. We have been in business for over 10 years in a commercial setting and have only grown so we must do something right.
4. I have actually hired 2 of my interns in the past and fired people who i thought were maybe good because they came from a "Big" school. It was amazing to see what they actually didn't know after graduation from an accredited school so to me that means nothing. I care about , as someone else mentioned, can you get the job done, and get it done well in the alloted time and be able to have good communication with the clients. I have ran into kids who have graduated that didn't even know how to speak to a client in a professional situation. Someone else said some studios do things a certain way and that is how we are, I am very picky so I am much more likely to hire one of my trained people than elsewhere. In order to keep growing i have to keep turning out good work, or work that i think is good. So far so good......
5 As audio syndicate has said Maybe i have worded things wrong, maybe next time around I will call the position an apprentice.
Anyway great thread and great forum.

Great attitude
Old 27th September 2007
  #79
Gear Nut
 

Just a quick update. The Current intern/Apprentice/ Student has asked if he may do another six months with the studio. He said he has really enjoyed the experience and learned alot. He also said he checked into other programs and evaluated his options and felt that he could learn more and get more staying with us. This is great news for me because now we have someone for another six months who already knows more about what we do than starting from scratch. Not trying to stir things back up just giving an update.
Old 27th September 2007
  #80
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Sigma's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AURORA4DTH View Post
Just a quick update. The Current intern/Apprentice/ Student has asked if he may do another six months with the studio. He said he has really enjoyed the experience and learned alot. He also said he checked into other programs and evaluated his options and felt that he could learn more and get more staying with us. This is great news for me because now we have someone for another six months who already knows more about what we do than starting from scratch. Not trying to stir things back up just giving an update.
from the git on this i lauded your approach..glad to see it is panning out well for you..

we are all in this together!
Old 27th September 2007
  #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by narco View Post
If the "intern" knows what they're doing and is an asset to the studio they should get paid, if they are learning then I don't think this sounds all that unreasonable (although at first I did until I read their explanation)

naro
Then they're an assistant, not an intern.
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