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Digi 003r BLA mod and PTLE or Ensemble and Logic 8
Old 14th September 2007
  #1
Digi 003r BLA mod and PTLE or Ensemble and Logic 8

I have an onyx 1640 and Logic Express. I'm looking to make my set up more professional...

The Apogee Ensemble looks JUST like the Digi 003 in the back. Protools is considered by many the best audio editing program. Logic is better for composing, or so I hear. I don't like the proprietary interface sceme of digidesign but I want the best program/interface combination for slick performance and simple, great sounding audio. I assume the Ensemble will be better than the Digi 003 but I think the Black Lion Audio mod would make them pretty close in quality and price.

If Logic 8 is just as good as Protools 7 LE for audio editing, which it seems it may be close, it will be basically the same thing with better availabe interfaces for around the same price (right?).

I'm all for digidesign going down! They had their fun but it seems like they can't keep up. Their refusal to make it easy or cost effective to get 12-16 quality channels going in, and their stupid interfaces that must be plugged in to mix.

Your thoughts?
Old 14th September 2007
  #2
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carlheinz's Avatar
 

NOT WORTH MODDING AN 003.It sounds very good.Puts My 002 to dust.
Old 14th September 2007
  #3
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naethoven's Avatar
 

Hey, just thought I would chime in. If its staying with the industry standard, and having the ability to work in pro studios with ease you are after, I hate to say it but go with PT. You simply must be fluent in it to work in pro environments. If you are just interested in doing your own music, I'd take the Logic+Ensemble ANY day over PTLE. Several reasons. Apogee has best conversion (according to most) hands down. I live in Nashville and there are pro studios here running Pro Tools HD that use Apogee converters with them instead of the Digi ones because they sound better. Also, Logic Studio is $500 and MUCH more flexible than proprietary PT. I sadly am stuck with PT because I MUST be fluent in it in order to ever get any work downtown. Don't get me wrong, PT is very nice and extremely easy to use and have good workflow, and there are some features in PT that are great that Logic does not offer. I have not even used Logic, but just because of all the limitations of PT, if I didn't care about recording people for money, I WOULD DEFINETLY GO WITH LOGIC AND ENSEMBLE. (Also, with Ensemble you get 4 high quality pres!)

Nathan
Old 14th September 2007
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6dyslexicelephnt View Post
If Logic 8 is just as good as Protools 7 LE for audio editing, which it seems it may be close, it will be basically the same thing with better availabe interfaces for around the same price (right?).
I would be SO happy if things were that simple!
No, they are still different applications with different workflow, different GUI and still have different ways of achieving things. If you like Logic then stick with it, if you don't, go with Pro Tools. I use both, along a whole bunch of others heh
Old 14th September 2007
  #5
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jordanh's Avatar
 

which ever works for you man... I have an ensemble (which I love) and Logic 7 and I am extremely happy...but I cant wait to upgrade to L8!

That being said, I do use pro tools all the time at the studios at school and whenever I'm in a big studio...
Old 14th September 2007
  #6
I was hoping that logic 8 would be so great it would change the way us "middle people" go about recording audio. Everyone loves having 16 channels in/out without having a tricked out digi or a 10,000 plus PTHD system. The middle of the line band recording set up is wrought with compromises no matter what choice you make.

BUT the whole "industry standard" thing has really been bothering me...

I record music on my own a lot so having great sound above anything is very important. However I have been recording bands more and more seriously and reinvesting in some "real" gear.

I guess I'll have to decide which is more important in order to make a decision. Digi 003 and recording other peoples music, or Logic + Ensemble for my own. I wish I could afford both
Old 3rd February 2008
  #7
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DHfromcali's Avatar
 

digi 003 rack experience

I use my Digi 003 rack with some nice outboard dbx 786 mic pres and record into PT for bands and live instruments most of the time. I also use Logic Pro 7 for composing, sound design, etc.
I'll be honest, the mic pres on the Digi 003 are really quite bad. If you buy an M-Audio Audio Buddy (two channel mic pre for about $85) you will see these are even better than the 003 pres. This is sad.
The bonus of the 003 is that you can use it with Logic as well, even though the converters are not good either. I would say get a cheaper Digi hardware, more expensive converter, and use both Logic and PT for each of their strengths. Many people I know use both programs because neither is great at both audio recording/editing and MIDI.
Logic is absolutely the best for composing within.
Old 3rd February 2008
  #8
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uncle duncan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6dyslexicelephnt View Post
I guess I'll have to decide which is more important in order to make a decision. Digi 003 and recording other peoples music, or Logic + Ensemble for my own. I wish I could afford both
I'm afraid I'm missing the point. Why would a digi 003 be better for recording other peoples music? Can the 003 give you zero latency monitoring of inputs for the headphone mix? Can it give you plenty of track inputs for live recording? Can you do faster-than-realtime bounce mixes when you want to give the client rough mixes of the days' work?

I've been recording other people's music for years, and I've never had to mess with PTLE, or PTHD. On the rare occasion when I have to move files to a PT-only studio (read - old school), I either send them a stereo mix, or they send me one. When I'm done, I bounce the new files all starting at zero, and they're imported back into PT. But I'm working in DP, which, I've heard, is very similar to PT, so I think I've got it easy. At least DP has transpose (pitch shift) for audio, which, I just read, is not a feature in PTLE. And DP has a graphic pitch correction window, much like Autotune, another feature missing in PTLE. But, since these features aren't in Logic or PTLE, I guess they're not relevant to your dilemma.

The point I'm trying to make is, if you compare features, I think you'll find your answer. Specifically, if you could use Logic's VI's and Apple Loops for composition, PTLE would be a really bad choice. However, if you base your decision on name recognition, or if you equate the 'PT standard' issue with running PTLE (the PT substandard), all I can say is, good luck.

A side note: A recent poster was asking the best way to get Garage Band files into PT. I think the Garage Band/Logic format is going to become a big part of the emerging market, and being fluent in those programs could help you expand your client base.
Old 3rd February 2008
  #9
Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle duncan View Post
I'm afraid I'm missing the point. Why would a digi 003 be better for recording other peoples music? Can the 003 give you zero latency monitoring of inputs for the headphone mix? Can it give you plenty of track inputs for live recording? Can you do faster-than-realtime bounce mixes when you want to give the client rough mixes of the days' work?

I've been recording other people's music for years, and I've never had to mess with PTLE, or PTHD. On the rare occasion when I have to move files to a PT-only studio (read - old school), I either send them a stereo mix, or they send me one. When I'm done, I bounce the new files all starting at zero, and they're imported back into PT. But I'm working in DP, which, I've heard, is very similar to PT, so I think I've got it easy. At least DP has transpose (pitch shift) for audio, which, I just read, is not a feature in PTLE. And DP has a graphic pitch correction window, much like Autotune, another feature missing in PTLE. But, since these features aren't in Logic or PTLE, I guess they're not relevant to your dilemma.
whilst I agree with lots of your points - I'd correct a couple of points. Yes, you can do zero latency with 003 (low latency mode). You can use up to 18 inputs if you need to (is that not enough for most situations? If you've got enough room to set up more than 18 sources, you probably need an HD rig anyway).

As for pitch shift - I'd guess that elastic audio can do everything DP can do regarding pitchshifting on the fly, and more. And personally, I'd rather do tuning in a dedicated program (AT or melodyne) than in the main thing. Most people who operate a commercial studio would require AT anyway.

I think the OP should try both software on a tracking and then a mixing session if possible, and decide which works best for them?
Old 3rd February 2008
  #10
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Beastie

Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
whilst I agree with lots of your points - I'd correct a couple of points. Yes, you can do zero latency with 003 (low latency mode).
low latency mode?

how?

im running logic through a 003rack and use tools and would love to get both to run with lowest latency possible

how please?

thankyou very very much...

ive been lost in this for a while now!
Old 4th February 2008
  #11
I now have Logic 8 and a Digi 003r w/ PTLE.

From my experience, Logic works great for me and gives me no hassles. Since I wasn't involved in recording when all studio engineers knew protools and tape in the early days of PT, the familiarity of PT has no factor in my decision. Logic 8 to me is protools without the hassles of latency, proprietary interfaces, or high cost for a high quality system (PTHD).

I'm not trying to say anything against people who love PTLE. For me, overall, L8 seems like a no brainer and I couldn't think of anything better for an "everything" audio/midi recording program.
Old 4th February 2008
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beastie View Post
low latency mode?

how?
Go to Options -> Low latency monitoring.
Old 4th February 2008
  #13
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I've been using PT from 001 to HD3 over the past 8 years (appox). I have just started to use Logic 8 with the Ensemble, writing songs with a friend of mine and it works like a charm. I even sold my Karma key board and bought a CME midi controller, again great stuff. BUT on the weekend I used Logic 8 in a pro recording session and it took like forever to complete the tracking. I can't believe the method of punch-in recording just so I can hear the pre-roll before a take. Also Logic kept freezing and I had to reboot it far too many times. I really hope I'm doing something wrong here.

nIC
Old 4th June 2008
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

here's a thought... go logic/ensemble, then get an mbox2 and ptle second hand. upgrading ptle to 7.4 is like $80usd.

if you have a project that needs protools, you can back the ensemble into the mbox2 via spdif and still have decent sounding pre's and conversion, if you need to do drums or a live thing you can always track in logic and bounce across to ptle for edit and mix. you can also monitor through the ensemble for your mixes via spdif. what you'll basically be doing is using the mbox2 as a dongle and a digital input and output for ptle.

my 003r is up on ebay at this very moment because this is what i plan to do. i like using ptle, but:

- lack of adc,
- the fact that i can't mix/edit on the road without lugging the 003 along,
- the plugin suite in logic compared to ptle is very strong, some nice reverbs and bits and pieces
- the fact that i just bought an ensemble and am freakin impressed...

so i am jumping across to logic as my main daw. i am thinking it'll be nice to work with as well, the limited contact i've had with it gives me confidence that it's fairly intuitive.

ymmv, but this solution gives you the best of both and is cost effective.
Old 4th June 2008
  #15
Gear Maniac
 

I know it sounds stupid...but why not getting both ?
Logic Scenario:

Enemble as Interface - Logic as DAW - Firewire Cable Nr1 to Mac

PTLE Scenario:

003 as Interface - Ensemble (standalone mode) as input 09-16 via Adat - PTLE as DAW - Firewirecable Nr2 to Mac

You just plug the FW in u need for the Situation youre in.

this way you get 16 (or 18) inputs for tracking...some better then others...and u got the best of both worlds to keep things "open" for now.

Cheers Markus
Old 4th June 2008
  #16
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ddageek's Avatar
 

First off I dumped the PT expanded mix system after 10 years, Went with logic and end up with a 002r soon to be modded by BLA (full blown signature mod).
Logic was fun at first and slightly more DSP efficient ( plugin wise) than LE.
But it was frustrating heres why!
1. Work flow I thought it was my old digi Biases but after reading Mixermans rants I find le more suited for mixing!
2 The Tweakhead modded 002 I heard came closer to my Lavry DA10 than either a Metrichalo 2882 or Apogee Ensemble! and while more expensive it could befinanced incrementally (bought the 002r and can work with while saving for the mod)
3 Even lowend clients wanted PT and many projects started on PT so it made sense to go back to PT!
4 Missed alot of plugins that were RTAS/TDM Kept asking where's my Massey!!! (projects were also coming in with lots of Bomb factory stuff that some clients loved)
Old 4th June 2008
  #17
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I was in a similar boat as the original poster. I own a 003r and was frustrated with the crippling of PTLE so I bought Logic Express for $199.

I do all of my tracking and editing in PTLE, consolidate the files then simple import them into Logic. Logic has ADC for my UAD plugs, a ton more tracks, way better CPU efficiency and because I bypass my 003 all together I think it sounds way better than PTLE.
Old 4th June 2008
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by moma View Post
I know it sounds stupid...but why not getting both ?
Logic Scenario:
Enemble as Interface - Logic as DAW - Firewire Cable Nr1 to Mac
PTLE Scenario:
003 as Interface - Ensemble (standalone mode) as input 09-16 via Adat - PTLE as DAW - Firewirecable Nr2 to Mac
You just plug the FW in u need for the Situation youre in.
this way you get 16 (or 18) inputs for tracking...some better then others...and u got the best of both worlds to keep things "open" for now.
This is an old post but still relevant I think. I now have Logic 8 and a Digi003r (which I hate). I'm probably going to switch to something else like and Ensemble or Fireface and try to get a crappy Mbox so I can still use PT when requested. I work mostly as a "producer" in that most people want me to be creative and "do my thing" and they're not going to tell me what program to use.

I've heard there's a way you can easily export tracks between PT and L8 and change formats with a simple program. I would like to get into that so I can use PTLE as little as possible...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev. Robb View Post
I was in a similar boat as the original poster. I own a 003r and was frustrated with the crippling of PTLE so I bought Logic Express for $199.

I do all of my tracking and editing in PTLE, consolidate the files then simple import them into Logic. Logic has ADC for my UAD plugs, a ton more tracks, way better CPU efficiency and because I bypass my 003 all together I think it sounds way better than PTLE.
I definitely agree with Rev. Rob on all of these points. I find Logic Express to be superior to PTLE in every way. To everyone out there considering the switch, you can get Logic Express 7 NIB on ebay for maybe 40 bucks. When you have some more cash, if you like the program, you can upgrade to Logic 8 Pro for $300. I'm using L8 right now and I like it a lot
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