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Digidesign: is this as bad as it looks? DSP Audio Systems
Old 13th September 2007
  #61
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
My bets are on Apple.
I'm a hardcore PT guy, but I agree.

Apple/Logic will win out.

I had a brainstorm, and I know, conceptually speaking, how and why they will win out.

--

HINT: Think iPhone and iPod.

It'll be the "Lotus 1-2-3"-style "KillerApp" of DAW -- but as an integrated solution.

Apple will be unstoppable in the DAW department.

Anyone care to venture a guess as to how they'll do it?
Old 13th September 2007
  #62
Gear Nut
 
Evil_G's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano View Post
I'm a hardcore PT guy, but I agree.

Apple/Logic will win out.

I had a brainstorm, and I know, conceptually speaking, how and why they will win out.

--

HINT: Think iPhone and iPod.

It'll be the "Lotus 1-2-3"-style "KillerApp" of DAW -- but as an integrated solution.

Apple will be unstoppable in the DAW department.

Anyone care to venture a guess as to how they'll do it?
Well, for starters, you're probably talking about how Apple now has:

1) The software and tools to make the music - LP8
2) The distribution method to get the music to the masses - iTunes
3) The cool must-have gadgets to enjoy that music - iPhone/iPod

....but there must be something more than that...maybe an accessory for the iPod that lets you use it as a stereo recorder...no....
A touch screen control surface for Logic, a la iPhone.
No....
i dunno.
Neal
Old 13th September 2007
  #63
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil_G View Post
A touch screen control surface for Logic, a la iPhone.
We have a winner!

There you go. A multi-touch interface...imagine the near-ubiquitous (in studios) 2-monitor widescreen Apple monitor setup...now with 2 horizontal multi-touch touchscreens where the "console" would be.

And Apple will be as ahead as they wanna be in developing it (and associated software) -- since it's their technology.

Not only would a Logic version like this be a "killer-app" for music...think about the implications for Final Cut, or Photoshop (is Apple gonna ever eat THEIR lunch, too?), or any such program -- with vertical monitors and horizontal desktop multi-touch monitor/controllers.

Besides, I think we're past the point of diminishing returns when it comes to computing horsepower. The watchword is gonna be "interfacing."
Old 13th September 2007
  #64
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RKrizman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by manthe View Post
Regarding the added expense of TDM - I believe it is tied to licensing and labor. For a company to release a TDM version of a plug, they much purchase the TDM API from Digi (which I understand is extremely expensive).

All of this adds up to a lot of expense that is passed on to the consumer.
That's what I mean by weird user's tax. It's a huge reason to bail on TDM as soon as possible.

-R
Old 13th September 2007
  #65
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon View Post
Both really are each. I think it's fair for him to say that PT is no longer a need for him. Several people doing post work with avid systems might say otherwise, to each his own. All that matters is that you get work done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayro_Rockola View Post
That's because Logic is a production based tool and PT is a multitrack recording based tool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melodic_disaster View Post
the latter seems to becoming just a mere subset of the former

digi really needs to buy garritan, native instruments, fruity loops, spectrasonics, synthogy, fxpansion, propellerhead

the convergence of music production and recording continues...

the whole division of labor concept is just not the trend today, is it?

Yeah to each their own. What really killed me with PT was the DV music production tool kit, the music production tool kit, and the MP3 encoder. It didn't make sense to pay extra for this. Even PTHD owners had to pay an extra $20 for the MP3 encoder when they payed $10k for the software. With Logic you could export audio in mp3 format, i had the tools needed to compose music for film, and with 3Gb of RAM and lots of hard drive space i was good on track count. Even on a native system.

But ultimately it was the composing features in Logic. Now that the editing features have been upgraded i can save some money by not having both PT and Logic systems. Even with my certification in PT software.
Old 13th September 2007
  #66
Gear Nut
 
Evil_G's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg Sartiano View Post
We have a winner!

There you go. A multi-touch interface...imagine the near-ubiquitous (in studios) 2-monitor widescreen Apple monitor setup...now with 2 horizontal multi-touch touchscreens where the "console" would be.

And Apple will be as ahead as they wanna be in developing it (and associated software) -- since it's their technology.

Not only would a Logic version like this be a "killer-app" for music...think about the implications for Final Cut, or Photoshop (is Apple gonna ever eat THEIR lunch, too?), or any such program -- with vertical monitors and horizontal desktop multi-touch monitor/controllers.

Besides, I think we're past the point of diminishing returns when it comes to computing horsepower. The watchword is gonna be "interfacing."
Yeah, I agree with you. Multi-touch control. A revolution in input devices is taking place, albeit slowly.

But the idea of a console with touch screens is not new. I have worked on Soundtracs Digital Consoles (DPC, DS-3, DS-00) that have had this feature for years. But just touch screens are not enough. I think we still need faders.
Unless they really come up with a slick way of doing it....hmmm. Can't wait to see where this goes.

Neal
Old 14th September 2007
  #67
Deleted 86c3d96
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duardo View Post
There will always be cheap software for consumers. There will always be expensive software for professionals. And most likely there will always be plenty of stuff that falls in the middle.

But I agree...doesn't make much business sense for Digidesign to sell Pro Tools software for a hundred bucks and "untie" it from their hardware...
Apple certainly isn't untying from their hardware.
Old 14th September 2007
  #68
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Dirty Halo's Avatar
 

Are tou guys crazy? Do you really think Apple is in your best concerns?

Look, I like Apple as a company, but music and anything associated is only PART of it's business, do you really want Pro Tools to go away, giving Apple NO incenetive to improve it's product, hence giving us less and less quality, options, support?

Think about it.

I know it's popular to bash Pro Tools, but think about it from a bigger and more mature stand point, please.


-a
Old 14th September 2007
  #69
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry_seldon View Post
Apple certainly isn't untying from their hardware.

+1

If you want to use Apogee's Ensemble to it's fullest potential you have to use Logic on a Mac.... It's almost like the reverse of Digidesign. Digidesign says, "if you want to use our kick ass software, then you have to use our hardware." Apple (Apogee) says, "if you want to use our kick-ass hardware then you have to use our software."
Old 14th September 2007
  #70
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Tibbon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosby View Post
+1

If you want to use Apogee's Ensemble to it's fullest potential you have to use Logic on a Mac.... It's almost like the reverse of Digidesign. Digidesign says, "if you want to use our kick ass software, then you have to use our hardware." Apple (Apogee) says, "if you want to use our kick-ass hardware then you have to use our software."
Uhh... same hardware... Bootcamp? Parralels? VMWare Fusion?
Old 14th September 2007
  #71
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon View Post
Uhh... same hardware... Bootcamp? Parralels? VMWare Fusion?

I guess I should have been more clear - I wasn't referring to the Apple computer, but rather more the Apogee interface(s).
Old 14th September 2007
  #72
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Tibbon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosby View Post
I guess I should have been more clear - I wasn't referring to the Apple computer, but rather more the Apogee interface(s).
I think that's just two simple things:

1) Apogee wanting to be able to write one driver, for one platform, which is stable, a limited number of hardware types, etc... You don't have to write for three different versions of Windows then, with 10 different motherboard chipsets, different firewire drivers, etc..

This seems trivial, but really Apogee has probably figured that 80% of audio professionals work on Macs. It's the same for photo and graphic places. They probably figured that the 20% sector of PC users weren't their target market and would take too much effort and money. Additionally, maybe they figured that the PC users weren't as likely to buy an Ensemble or whatever. I'm sure if it was in the end profitable for them, then they would have done it. They are smart guys.

2) Apple probably asked them, and perhaps has an agreement, for them to exclusively develop for the Mac for a while. Apple probably agreed to do a lot of co-branding and marketing. If you notice it's a Mac very forwardly placed in every apogee ad. It's not some Dell, Alienware or offbrand piece of junk. It's a very specific system.

Logic + Ensemble/Symphony + Mac is sold as a complete system really. They aren't trying to push the strengths of the parts. They aren't trying to sell Symphony as the best interface ever, they are trying to sell it as the best interface for Logic ever that has latency at or better than DSP based systems.
Old 14th September 2007
  #73
What has Avid done for Digi?

Hi,
IMHO, Digidesign's woes are likely the culprit of a badly executed
acquisition than their mis-steps as an independent entity. While the
acquisition was supposed to provide a synergy of application offerings
in the multi-media space, neither Protools nor Avid's video editing
software have benefited from having the other as a peer. Years later,
the integration between the two product families is peripheral at best.
Avid has banked on HD far too much .. it reminds me of the US automakers
heavy relliance on SUV / large trucks banking that there would be an
infinite supply of gasoline .. .. worse yet, Avid has not invested in this
product line nearly enough. The HD audio hardware hasnt' been demonstrably
improved in 8 years or so ... that's far too long for any silicon. Icon is
eyecandy for many studios who are getting pinched by every label that
they do business with. On the Video side of the business, FCP2 with
either an Aja IoHD (whenever they can get them out the door!) or
a Motu VC-3 box kicks Avids butt all day long.
The fact that I can purchase Logic 8 for the same price as a the music
production toolkit and have a much more capable authoring and editing
environment that can still use my HD hardware is a rather interesting
moment in my DAW usage. There *has* to be a major cost correction
and capability correction in the LE and MP product lines. They could stand
to make the pie slice a lot bigger . .. they may have to take the Digi
side of the business private in order to do the internal restructuring
and re-aligning necessary to pull it off.

With Logic 8 and Final Cut 2 Studio .. Apple is really taking their competitors
to task. Who ever is running their media authoring business is doing a
great job. Doesn't hurt they have a major cash cow (iPod, iPhone) .. but
Avid had a major cash cow too .. they just didn't leverage it very well.

jeff
Old 14th September 2007
  #74
Lives for gear
 
True North's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo View Post
Look, I like Apple as a company, but music and anything associated is only PART of it's business, do you really want Pro Tools to go away, giving Apple NO incenetive to improve it's product, hence giving us less and less quality, options, support?

Think about it.

I know it's popular to bash Pro Tools, but think about it from a bigger and more mature stand point, please.


-a
I don't want PT to go away but I want them to wake up and sweat like a MOFO - they are a little too smug for my liking. The need for DSP based solution is quickly evaporating IMO and I think they need to make some changes, soon!!!
Old 14th September 2007
  #75
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Tibbon's Avatar
Dirty Halo-

digidesign going away would not lower the amount of drive that Apple would need to make a good product. Have companies not tried to make good recording systems since Studer stopped making 2" machines?
Innovation would continue. It's not based upon Digidesign's existance.
Old 14th September 2007
  #76
Lives for gear
 

tibbon.

in my opinion any manufacturer that ignores the millions of people recording on pc's,
is ignoring a huge market. re..your comment bout mac users n "pro's.".
in my opinion the pc market will continue to be the dominant market.
for many reasons.
lots of pro users use pc's too also.
its a really fractionated market.
the only reason lots of hi end studios went mac was historical.


my feelings are the same as norths.
once 8 core pc's get ultra cheap in the coming few years i bet , to use norths words..
the need for add in dsp cards will disappear.
once 8 core pc's are at retail for 900 buks...like the quads are now,
gonna be a whole new ball game i feel.
Old 14th September 2007
  #77
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
.....lots of pro users use pc's too also.
its a really fractionated market.
the only reason lots of hi end studios went mac was historical.
........
ummmmmmm every single hi-end music studio (and artist, and engineer) that I know use Macs as their main composing / mixing / editing machine.

they might have a PC (or three) for Gigastudio - or a few might have a PC laptop -

but the elegance, and simplicity of the Mac has made it what it is in professional music.
Old 14th September 2007
  #78
Lives for gear
 
DontLetMeDrown's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmarkham View Post
...neither Protools nor Avid's video editing
software have benefited from having the other as a peer...
I just recently learned (if I understand correctly) that Avid sessions are not compatible with Pro Tools HD sessions unless you purchase "digi-translator" ($500). As a previous poster mentioned, this is the "locked-in" mentality of the dinosaurs at Digi. Shouldn't they reward their customers to offer incentive for purchasing both of their product lines? Intead they try to gouge you for even more $$$. This kinda stuff is business 101. Maybe I'm mistaken on the compatibility, but that's how I understood it.
Old 14th September 2007
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by True North View Post
The need for DSP based solution is quickly evaporating IMO and I think they need to make some changes, soon!!!

The need maybe, but the want is still there. UAD-1, Duende, Liquid Mix, Powercore. DSP is still around and wanted. Even Waves has those DSP machines to enhance processing power of their plugs.
Old 14th September 2007
  #80
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
ummmmmmm every single hi-end music studio (and artist, and engineer) that I know use Macs as their main composing / mixing / editing machine.

they might have a PC (or three) for Gigastudio - or a few might have a PC laptop -

but the elegance, and simplicity of the Mac has made it what it is in professional music.
indeed!
Old 14th September 2007
  #81
Quote:
Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown View Post
I just recently learned (if I understand correctly) that Avid sessions are not compatible with Pro Tools HD sessions unless you purchase "digi-translator" ($500). As a previous poster mentioned, this is the "locked-in" mentality of the dinosaurs at Digi. Shouldn't they reward their customers to offer incentive for purchasing both of their product lines? Intead they try to gouge you for even more $$$. This kinda stuff is business 101. Maybe I'm mistaken on the compatibility, but that's how I understood it.
That is quite true. You need Digitranslator to get the audio to/from. Unfortunately
for Digi/Avid, there's no advantage they have because the same pathway
works well to and from competitors products.

jeff
Old 14th September 2007
  #82
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
tibbon.

in my opinion any manufacturer that ignores the millions of people recording on pc's,
is ignoring a huge market. re..your comment bout mac users n "pro's.".
in my opinion the pc market will continue to be the dominant market.
for many reasons.
lots of pro users use pc's too also.
its a really fractionated market.
the only reason lots of hi end studios went mac was historical.
.
manning1,

i think the game is a little different than you are seeing it. software is being used to sell hardware. the reason apple bought logic was to sell more macs. not pc's. its one strategy by one company. seems to be working well for them. of course, its not their only package, you see the same thing with final cut, aperture. i'm surprised they haven't bought adobe and macromedia to be honest.

making logic for mac only and pricing it at $499 is to sell mac pros! not make money of the software in and of itself, and not make it so people can buy windows machines.

pc's will always be around, will always be greater in number (business apps, gaming, price sensitive basic consumer users).

macs are and have always been niche market products, and moreso high end branded lifestyle products. the commoditized PC will be around 4 ever. there will always be daw's on the pc also.

apple seems be doing quite well by ignoring the PC.
Old 14th September 2007
  #83
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True North's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonboy79 View Post
Even Waves has those DSP machines to enhance processing power of their plugs.
That reminds me I have an APA44 that I want to sell (seriously) ......... interested heh
Old 14th September 2007
  #84
Lives for gear
 
True North's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
ummmmmmm every single hi-end music studio (and artist, and engineer) that I know use Macs as their main composing / mixing / editing machine.

they might have a PC (or three) for Gigastudio - or a few might have a PC laptop -

but the elegance, and simplicity of the Mac has made it what it is in professional music.
There is no arguing that MAC's own overwhelming market share in the studio biz. I think this has less to do with the 'elegance' and more to do with the historical devlpm't of PT & Mac

PT became the predominant player in studios for various reasons. Digi chose mac primarily because of the consistency in components with each mac machine. When the industry leading DAW software adopts a platform like Mac as it's primary starting point it's not hard to understand why Macs are more predominant today in studios. When MAC took a swipe at Digi/Avid with the release of Final Cut, Digi started changing their emphasis to PC compliance.

There is no real official data on this but I am definitely seeing that PC use is on the rise for DAW users.
Old 14th September 2007
  #85
jhg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmarkham View Post
That is quite true. You need Digitranslator to get the audio to/from. Unfortunately
for Digi/Avid, there's no advantage they have because the same pathway
works well to and from competitors products.

jeff

What about Automatic Duck for FCP? It is a pain to have to shell out $500 either way to import/export AAF/OMFs. What is the path/transfer solution between Logic 8 and Final Cut Pro(no really, I am totally interested, since the Avid company can't have it's products talk to each other without additional expense)

Regards,

jhg
Old 16th September 2007
  #86
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by manthe View Post
Regarding the added expense of TDM - I believe it is tied to licensing and labor...
Try what I'm told is a massive labor expense because you can't just plug a bunch of DSP libraries in like you can with floating point plug-ins.

Most people develop their prototypes in float before even thinking about creating the same algorithms for the 56000 chip.
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