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Digidesign: is this as bad as it looks? DSP Audio Systems
Old 13th September 2007
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
AVID owns Digidesign. I've heard that AVID is loosing money, that Pro Tools sales are on the decrease etc. Here's what Yahoo Finance says about the situation (see the image - the red line is Avid, the blue is Apple). I don't know much about finance or stock market (I'm not really interested in the topic either), but is the situation really as dramatic as this chart suggests? I don't want Avid/Digi or anyone else to go downhill - but to me, this looks like they've been going steadily in the wrong direction for two years now - which at least could be taken as an indication of a need for rethinking their product range - soon.

I have no reason to use Pro Tools Anymore with the release of Logic 8. Digidesign has released software synths but they're really buggy. i was using structure in a session and there were missing samples plus it was really slow. Logic comes with a lot more in the software synth department.
Old 13th September 2007
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walth View Post
I have no reason to use Pro Tools Anymore with the release of Logic 8. Digidesign has released software synths but they're really buggy. i was using structure in a session and there were missing samples plus it was really slow. Logic comes with a lot more in the software synth department.
That's because Logic is a production based tool and PT is a multitrack recording based tool.
Old 13th September 2007
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayro_Rockola View Post
That's because Logic is a production based tool and PT is a multitrack recording based tool.
Both really are each. I think it's fair for him to say that PT is no longer a need for him. Several people doing post work with avid systems might say otherwise, to each his own. All that matters is that you get work done.
Old 13th September 2007
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayro_Rockola View Post
That's because Logic is a production based tool and PT is a multitrack recording based tool.
the latter seems to becoming just a mere subset of the former

digi really needs to buy garritan, native instruments, fruity loops, spectrasonics, synthogy, fxpansion, propellerhead

the convergence of music production and recording continues...

the whole division of labor concept is just not the trend today, is it?
Old 13th September 2007
  #35
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Of course you can't compare the two, they do very different things and sell very different products. Just because Apple sells pro audio and video applications doesn't mean that they are comparable. Apples rise have to do with switching to Intel and stuff like that.

As for PTHD sales and Apples pro audio sales, they are also completely different. Logic targets a very different group of people than HD does. One is hardware the other is not. One is expensive as hell, the other is not.
Old 13th September 2007
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stiff View Post
Of course you can't compare the two, they do very different things and sell very different products. Just because Apple sells pro audio and video applications doesn't mean that they are comparable. Apples rise have to do with switching to Intel and stuff like that.

As for PTHD sales and Apples pro audio sales, they are also completely different. Logic targets a very different group of people than HD does. One is hardware the other is not. One is expensive as hell, the other is not.
Apple is clearly selling software to sell hardware. in that respect, they are similar. Apple is in the hardware business and so is digi, even though digi goes into apple's product.

run logic on two 8-core, 16mb ram mac pro's (total of 16 cores, 32gb ram) on logic node for $18k. That's a compelling alternative to pthd. It also has the midi flex and instruments etc. they look not too far away from PT as of now. depends on your budget i guess.
Old 13th September 2007
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
AVID owns Digidesign. I've heard that AVID is loosing money, that Pro Tools sales are on the decrease etc. Here's what Yahoo Finance says about the situation (see the image - the red line is Avid, the blue is Apple). I don't know much about finance or stock market (I'm not really interested in the topic either), but is the situation really as dramatic as this chart suggests? I don't want Avid/Digi or anyone else to go downhill - but to me, this looks like they've been going steadily in the wrong direction for two years now - which at least could be taken as an indication of a need for rethinking their product range - soon.
That's showing stock price which may or may not reflect what's going on within a company. There are all sorts of overvaluead and undervalued copmanies being traded.
Old 13th September 2007
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melodic_disaster View Post
.....
run logic on two 8-core, 16mb ram mac pro's (total of 16 cores, 32gb ram) on logic node for $18k. That's a compelling alternative to pthd. It also has the midi flex and instruments etc. they look not too far away from PT as of now. depends on your budget i guess.
yes... but...... as someone who has done a lot of editing and mixing in various DAWS.... ProTools stomps on all other comers, in my opinion.

and HD-TDM can do (basically) zero latency - that a native system can't get close to....

+/- 1 sample latency...

Old 13th September 2007
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
yes... but...... as someone who has done a lot of editing and mixing in various DAWS.... ProTools stomps on all other comers, in my opinion.

and HD-TDM can do (basically) zero latency - that a native system can't get close to....

+/- 1 sample latency...

My PT HD rig had higher latency than my native rig has now, and I'm not even using new, fast & fancy converters (today's AD/DA converters are faster than those produced a few years ago).

It's the monitoring solution that's different, not the latency situation.
Old 13th September 2007
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeaudio View Post
My PT HD rig had higher latency than my native rig has now, and I'm not even using new, fast & fancy converters (today's AD/DA converters are faster than those produced a few years ago).

It's the monitoring solution that's different, not the latency situation.
HD2 or HD3 accel can do +/- 1 sample latency - out to analog and back in... with delay compensation on....

native cant.

Old 13th September 2007
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
HD2 or HD3 accel can do +/- 1 sample latency - out to analog and back in... with delay compensation on....

native cant.

According to Digidesign (and my tests) the latency from input to output during record is 105 samples, which is almost 2.4 ms @ 44.1. You can't compensate something that happens in real time anyway - maybe we are talking about two different topics?

Converters alone often use a millisecond each, so it's not possible to send stuff out and in again (via the converters) with only one sample delay.

The interesting thing is from an analog source into the system and analog out again, which always means two conversions.
Old 13th September 2007
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonboy79 View Post
I said Pro audio did I not? Saying "pro" and "pro audio" are two totally different things. My point was Avid doesn't have a ton of little gizmo's for the general masses to enjoy and thus increase market value. While Apple does get used a lot in Pro Audio via their computers and Logic they don't have near the amount of Pro Audio equipment a company like Avid does. Also, where did I say never? It's like you took a few words I said and compiled it into what you wanted it to say, little ridiculous if you ask me. If you're going to quote me, quote me properly.
I support you 110 percent!!!

Old 13th September 2007
  #43
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Tibbon...re..."I can't see how..."
time will tell., if i'm right.
and be driven by the market.
bobs right...markets saturated.
Old 13th September 2007
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I just think the pro audio and video markets are pretty well saturated so there is no reason to expect further growth. That doesn't mean Avid won't sustain a dominant role for some time to come.
It seems guys here are overlooking this. Also Digi faces the possibility of obsolescence due to technological advances. It may very well be new chips and not other companies that have been Digi's enemy. It's a much bigger enemy than a competitor. Also the decline in budgets for end users means they'll eventually be looking for a bargain product.


(Also, guys I like to see discussions of the Market/investments. If anyone is interested in learning more about investing. I can post a link to some of the best books on corporate valuation/finance (THEY ARE FREE BOOKS).

Let me know
Old 13th September 2007
  #45
the market demands a native solution. Digidesign has to release a native version of HD, not LE pro or whatever... Native HD at $499 or less. if not bye bye. of course studios will continue to use PT HD in its current form and not suffer if Digi looses the mid and low end market, but it is these lower level markets that generate revenue for product development and support. Apple has somewhat moved this revenue source to its iPod and music sales through the ITMS, so gives them more leverage to bring out applications at lower prices. It is a break even or loss leader for their hardware (although reality is, with the volume that they will be selling, i'm sure Logic 8 Studio will actually be profitable). the biggest commodity is of course the experience of the engineer, and what platform he is trained/productive/competent on and for the most part, that is PT. but if PT does not gain back the low end market share, the next generation of engineers could care less if their workplace has PT or not.
Old 13th September 2007
  #46
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I consider myself very 'mainstream' in my thinking and logic. I am the proverbial statistic that companies can typically count on in terms of purchasing and tracking my wants and needs.

That said, perhaps it might carry weight if I say (and I mean this VERY sincerely):

If Digi were to go native, open PT to any interface, drop the fictional track-count limitation, add native support for VST/VSTiadn delay compensation, I would drop ANY DAW I was currently using and literally run out to buy it @ US $799! (it might be smart to bundle a select set of plug-ins.)

Name it Pro Tools Native, perhaps offer packages like other providers with different plugs, synths and features (like beat-detective, etc.) for priced ranging from US $499 to $999.

Perhaps it is just my naive opinion, but I believe if Digi did this, they would wipe the floor with most other platforms.

I LOVE Pro Tools. I have LE on my system, but I never touch it. I plan to move to HD at some point...maybe. If they went native, there'd be no 'maybe' about it.

Hell, I'd even pay up to $1200!!

I know this isn't exactly germane, but I thought I'd post it in case Digi is watching
Old 13th September 2007
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
HD2 or HD3 accel can do +/- 1 sample latency - out to analog and back in... with delay compensation on....

native cant.

Apogee's Symphony gets the same latency as PTHD. I've tried it, and its awesome. I'm sure Digi has something up their sleeve too. Everyone was sure Logic 8 was not coming, now everyone is sure Digi has nothing coming.

What I am sure of is that consumers are winning here. The Apple/Apogee partnership has created a real alternative to Pro Tools which makes for more choice and more competitive pricing, all which is good for us consumers.

Yea capitalism!!!
Old 13th September 2007
  #48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonboy79 View Post
Isn't the comparison of apple and avid kind of like apples and oranges? Avid deals with a lot of pro audio stuff while apple hits the consumer market in a huge way with ipods, iphones, imacs and so on. It's better to compare apple to microsoft.
Agreed when comparing companies. Although even that analogy's a bit apple and orangey (no puns intended).


But... the significance for PT's continuing position in the hosted DAW market may be significant. With Avid's star falling rapidly (a 25 percent drop in equity stock prices in a year), it may well eventually affect their business plans with regard to Pro Tools and may eventually affect their ability to continue improving products -- especially cost-intensive proprietary hardware development.

Avid may decide to sell off the Digi division in order to reinvigorate their core business... but that's just an off-the-top guess, based on what other companies have done in such circumstances.
Old 13th September 2007
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Agreed when comparing companies. Although even that analogy's a bit apple and orangey (no puns intended).


But... may eventually affect their ability to continue improving products -- especially cost-intensive proprietary hardware development.

Avid may decide to sell off the Digi division in order to reinvigorate their core business... but that's just an off-the-top guess, based on what other companies have done in such circumstances.
I think that cost-intensive hardware is actually their cash cow..

-R
Old 13th September 2007
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manning1 View Post
add in the fact that even a lot of free plug ins are dam good.
Also add in the fact that high end, expensive plugins can be very disappointing, and paying the extra bite to get TDM versions does not affect their quality AT ALL. It's just some sort of weird user's tax. I mean, consider the hassle and expensive of all the Waves stuff, which I barely use anymore, compared to the excellent and inexpensive plugs that Massey is kickng out.

-R
Old 13th September 2007
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I just think the pro audio and video markets are pretty well saturated so there is no reason to expect further growth. That doesn't mean Avid won't sustain a dominant role for some time to come.
Where it's not saturated is in the growing new generation of composers/musicians/producers, like my 11 year old daughter who is getting into Garage Band. If she agrees to keep up the piano lessons, I'll be rolling in a new iMac (which we need anyway) with Logic 8 and we'll all be having some fun.

In other words, the part of the market that's not saturated is the part that isn't interested in and can't afford PTHD.

-R
Old 13th September 2007
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RKrizman View Post
Also add in the fact that high end, expensive plugins can be very disappointing, and paying the extra bite to get TDM versions does not affect their quality AT ALL. It's just some sort of weird user's tax. I mean, consider the hassle and expensive of all the Waves stuff, which I barely use anymore, compared to the excellent and inexpensive plugs that Massey is kickng out.

-R
Regarding the added expense of TDM - I believe it is tied to licensing and labor. For a company to release a TDM version of a plug, they much purchase the TDM API from Digi (which I understand is extremely expensive).

Plug-in providers need to port their plugs to TDM, so there is also the additional labor costs associated with it. Consider that the TDM market is relatively quite small compared to the native market. This makes it far more difficult for a company to recoup their developement/porting labor costs, because the volume just isn't there. As such, they must factor in a large portion of the labor costs to the per-unit price of a TDM plug-in.

All of this adds up to a lot of expense that is passed on to the consumer.
Old 13th September 2007
  #53
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When looking at and comparing company financials, we should keep in mind we are looking at parent companies.

To do a fair assessment, one would need access to data supporting a direct comparison of Digidesign to Logic and the ROC/COC or ROE/COE for each..
Old 13th September 2007
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no ssl yet View Post
When looking at and comparing company financials, we should keep in mind we are looking at parent companies.

To do a fair assessment, one would need access to data supporting a direct comparison of Digidesign to Logic and the ROC/COC or ROE/COE for each..
Agreed, but in general I believe the question is, "Is Avid in a strong financial position?" and the answer seems to be, "Maybe". I think if anything, it puts Avid in a position for a takeover if the slip any more.

They only have a market cap of 1.07 Billion. That's not much. Less than half of what it was in 2005. Apple has around 12 Billion in cash reserves (if not more now).

Apple could make their competition go poof tomorrow if they wanted. Literally. They wouldn't even have to spend a billion, they could spend half of that much with a properly structured hostile takeover.
Old 13th September 2007
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddS View Post
Apogee's Symphony gets the same latency as PTHD......
it is my understanding that Symphony can get down to about 64 samples, and that is totally awesome, but that is not the same as +/- ONE sample that HD-TDM accel can do....

usually not an issue, but in certain situations - it is a deal breaker.
Old 13th September 2007
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
it is my understanding that Symphony can get down to about 64 samples, and that is totally awesome, but that is not the same as +/- ONE sample that HD-TDM accel can do....

usually not an issue, but in certain situations - it is a deal breaker.
Like said earlier in this thread, the roundtrip in ProTools HD (AD -> PT DSP mixer -> DA) is like 105 samples.
Old 13th September 2007
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
Like said earlier in this thread, the roundtrip in ProTools HD (AD -> PT DSP mixer -> DA) is like 105 samples.
I was about to say, no converters have that low of latency (DSP native or TDM). None. There is no such thing as zero latency.
Old 13th September 2007
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeltaM View Post
Like said earlier in this thread, the roundtrip in ProTools HD (AD -> PT DSP mixer -> DA) is like 105 samples.
sorry..... I'm not being clear

I'm talking about an existing audio track in a DAW.... converted to analog, then back in to digital, with hardware (analog compressor, or EQ) on an aux insert.... and back into proTools... with delay compensation on.....

it is +/- one sample..... and it is my understanding that DP and LOGIC cannot do this.

or have i missed it?
Old 13th September 2007
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
sorry..... I'm not being clear

I'm talking about an existing audio track in a DAW.... converted to analog, then back in to digital, with hardware (analog compressor, or EQ) on an aux insert.... and back into proTools... with delay compensation on.....

it is +/- one sample..... and it is my understanding that DP and LOGIC cannot do this.

or have i missed it?
Ah, you mean the latency compensation error is maximum one sample, that's correct. In ProTools the latency is always rounded off in the same direction, so I've heard ppl report it's actually better to add another sample of latency yourself to result in the smallest actual timeshift error.

Actually in other DAW's, this works exactly the same. Cubase/Nuendo or Logic with Latency Fixer or any other DAW all have a latency error of less then 1 sample on outboard loops. Check also your other thread: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/logic...pensation.html

Because with Logic and Latency Fixer you choose your compensation value yourself (rather then using Digidesigns standard values when using 192 convertors), you can adapt at once the closest possible compensation already.
For some reason Digidesign choose not the closest possible compensation, but just the nearest samplevalue higher (or lower, dunno by mind, anyway, not the closest one) rather then the actual latency...
Old 13th September 2007
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tibbon View Post
Agreed, but in general I believe the question is, "Is Avid in a strong financial position?" and the answer seems to be, "Maybe". I think if anything, it puts Avid in a position for a takeover if the slip any more.

They only have a market cap of 1.07 Billion. That's not much. Less than half of what it was in 2005. Apple has around 12 Billion in cash reserves (if not more now).

Apple could make their competition go poof tomorrow if they wanted. Literally. They wouldn't even have to spend a billion, they could spend half of that much with a properly structured hostile takeover.
Well this is close to true (It seems true, but I'd have to look over the financials to say they could get half for 1/2 a billion. After Digi decides to take steps to defend its position, it would probably cost a bit more.)

But is it worth it to Apple is the question. How much is the entire market worth and if Digi is on the decline how much would Digi's acquisition really be worth? LOL If you have any idea of timing (potential) LOL Let me know so I can buy a bunch of Digi right before they are bought.

You've peeked my interest. I'm gonna go pull their annual report and analyst reports etc....
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