The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Over produced, well produced, and under produced Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 3rd August 2018
  #91
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
I think you went there with "mimeographed." Now let me get back to my breakfast of hardtack and Postum -- I've a tetch of the ague and I'm late for my bloodletting.
Yes, things were primitive back then--we had only just landed on the moon.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #92
Gear Nut
 

IMO the producer is the person, maybe the only person, wirh a "view " the person who gives a direction to the project , gives the songs a structure, a sound, a reason, help the artist keep focused on the project as a whole from the start to finish

Mike
Old 3rd August 2018
  #93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
A lot of music also can't be judged by recordings. Hearing the Basie Band live with no amplification blew my mind. Recordings of bands like that are a mere souvenir that reminds people of what it was like.
I did see Basie, Ellington, and Louis Armstrong when I was a kid. Kenton, Herman, Brubeck, too. Everyone else was into the Beatles...

I have to say that I really appreciate both live performances and recordings. I like being able to live with a performance. I'm still getting new stuff out of recordings I first heard a half century ago. But that may reflect my particular level of sophistication or, rather, lack thereof. Others may take it all in the first time but not me. I'm a slow learner.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #94
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I did see Basie, Ellington, and Louis Armstrong when I was a kid. Everyone else was into the Beatles...
And you probably used big words and wore high-water pants and got picked on on the playground.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #95
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikevsmike View Post
IMO the producer is the person, maybe the only person, wirh a "view " the person who gives a direction to the project , gives the songs a structure, a sound, a reason, help the artist keep focused on the project as a whole from the start to finish

Mike
Seriously?
Old 3rd August 2018
  #96
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
And you probably used big words and wore high-water pants and got picked on on the playground.
My fashion sense was cut in the early days of surf mania, so Pendleton-style plaid flannel shirts and jeans and later khakis (but polyester, it was all they had then, at least where we went shopping, but at least the flannels were wool or cotton). With regard to exposed ankles... I think my ideal was for my khakis to 'just break' on the shoes. But that may have come later, in high school.

With regard to bullies... I was doing good at my old, huge, urban middle school (good grades, friends, only one bully, a big white kid who decided I was OK after I literally decked him -- it was the one good punch I ever got in in a childhood fight and he probably would have killed me if a teacher hadn't come along and make us shake hands. But after that was cool)... doing cool until the family decided to move to a more upscale, adjacent town, with an academically miserable school system and a bunch of stuck up wannabes and 'soshes' who ran the bullying concession. All the charm of the pack in Lord of the Flies (which I read at the time... dead on).

My love of jazz and obsession with audio and hi fi pretty much pegged me as eternal victim. A role I fought at every turn, though ineffectively, as it was always pack-oriented. From football players to the tiny 7th graders, they all attacked in packs.

It made me long for my one grade school bully, who only worked solo. He was smaller than me but did the flying fists thing, no style, but a rain of blows. (He was arrested in 5th grade for stealing a car and driving to a town on the other side of LA from us -- close to 50 miles away... they found a loaded .45 automatic on the car seat next to the pillow he had to sit on to see over the wheel. This is all absolutely true.)

Anyhow, by my senior year I'd 'reinvented' myself as we'd learn to say only a few years later, got skinny, decided that the new psychedelic era of rock was finally something worthy my witheringly narrow good taste, so for once what I thought was hip and what the world thought lined up -- and then I learned how to work the 'sosh' types who clogged the hallways; when you knew their buttons, they were easy to play. Not that they were worth playing. But, you know, you're learning how to deal with society. When you've spent several hellish years being tormented by the same people, you can roll a little cynical.

I couldn't wait to get to college. And it made ALL the difference.


Anyhow, that's the long answer to that question.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #97
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimS View Post
My definition is simple: if you listen* to the song and find yourself wishing the producer had done less, it's overproduced. If you listen to the song and find yourself wishing the producer had done more, it's underproduced. If you listen to the song and don't even notice the production, only the music, it's produced well.

Or to put it a slightly different way: if you listen to the song and can imagine it being improved if different production choices were made then (at least in your opinion) the song was not produced ideally.
It *is* just opinions...you can dress up a song in an endless amount of ways...

if you want a current "hit" though, there aren't a whole lot of choices, fewer than ever, it seems...just do it pretty much exactly how a current hit sounds.
Old 3rd August 2018
  #98
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
A record producer is the same as a director in film or theater. It's somebody having a talent for drawing performances out of singers, musicians and recording engineers that are better than everybody involved believed themselves capable of. There's no such thing as "self-production" in my experience. Without a producer, recording takes many times as long, typically at least 5 times. Most successful producers have prior experience working under an experienced producer.
Well, I "self produced" all my albums, but not after listening to everything Flood did first... It wasn't until I was in my late 20's that I thought I was getting good enough to try producing.

I WAS the producer, and recorded many rock albums, and some of them were commercially successful.
Then I moved to all electronic projects, and many of those were commercially successful.

You get to a point where you can hear something and make a decision instantly whether it is "good" or not and only use the best bits.
Old 4th August 2018
  #99
Lives for gear
 
kennybro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I did see Basie, Ellington, and Louis Armstrong when I was a kid. Kenton, Herman, Brubeck, too. Everyone else was into the Beatles...

I have to say that I really appreciate both live performances and recordings. I like being able to live with a performance. I'm still getting new stuff out of recordings I first heard a half century ago. But that may reflect my particular level of sophistication or, rather, lack thereof. Others may take it all in the first time but not me. I'm a slow learner.
Agree! Nothing to do with slow learning. The great recordings contain layers of hidden nuance.

As a fan, I first hear the song. If I hear the recording first, that's usually a red flag to dismiss it altogether, or file it away as a reference track.

After I absorb the song, it might get stale fast, in which case it's dismissed and shelved.

The great ones are songs that don't get tired, and recordings that capture layers of human emotions that continue to reveal themselves over hundreds of listens. I can still listen to Ray Charles recordings, and hear nuances that I glazed over in previous listenings. Lots of Motown too.

Some of my faves are Joe Pass solo recordings, and Muddy Waters and Willie Dixon Chess stuff. Simple recordings that capture the essence of emotional communication. So deep, they are still revealing new gems after more than half a century.
Old 4th August 2018
  #100
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
It *is* just opinions...you can dress up a song in an endless amount of ways...

if you want a current "hit" though, there aren't a whole lot of choices, fewer than ever, it seems...just do it pretty much exactly how a current hit sounds.
That seems safe, but then you have to be better (or better connected) than all the other people hitting the same checklist. And there are a lot of people with that checklist.

It's a longshot, this originality, novelty, je ne sais quoi thang that brings the occasional outlier into the marketplace and then, even less occasionally makes a surprise hit out of it, but it is what happens as the audience grows increasingly bored with whatever the going thing is.

"Anarchy in the UK" had a huge swathe of the rock/pop audience shaking their heads in 1976 -- few thought it was any sort of precursor of a style that would become a fixture in the greater music scene for decades to come, but there you go. Similarly, a lot of the music that became stylistic prototypes for the club/dance pop of the last decade was just niche/outsider music in the 1990s. The slagging from mainstream musicians of desktop electronica producers was sometimes relentless -- and, well, often kind of warranted -- but look who the joke's on now...
Old 4th August 2018
  #101
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
That seems safe, but then you have to be better (or better connected) than all the other people hitting the same checklist. And there are a lot of people with that checklist.

It's a longshot, this originality, novelty, je ne sais quoi thang that brings the occasional outlier into the marketplace and then, even less occasionally makes a surprise hit out of it, but it is what happens as the audience grows increasingly bored with whatever the going thing is.

"Anarchy in the UK" had a huge swathe of the rock/pop audience shaking their heads in 1976 -- few thought it was any sort of precursor of a style that would become a fixture in the greater music scene for decades to come, but there you go. Similarly, a lot of the music that became stylistic prototypes for the club/dance pop of the last decade was just niche/outsider music in the 1990s. The slagging from mainstream musicians of desktop electronica producers was sometimes relentless -- and, well, often kind of warranted -- but look who the joke's on now...
It will be interesting to see what comes next as music sounds more in a rut than ever (to me). I can't imagine something coming even a little out of left field at this point.

Even with punk shaking things up (a little), I think in the 1970s there were many ways to produce a song...almost as many as there were artists (many having a somewhat distinct "sound"). But maybe it only seems that way to me because I'm into that period....maybe there's little difference between The Sex Pistols and The Bee Gees to someone uninterested.
Old 4th August 2018
  #102
Lives for gear
 
ponzi's Avatar
I was in New Orleans, pre flood, and there was a group of kids playing on the most beat up and tarnished brass instruments I could imagine. I contributed to their cause and they played St James Infirmary at my request. I felt it was the essence of pure jazz. My first thought was wouldn't it be great to record it, but I realized that the magic of that moment could not be bottled.

The beauty of recorded music, is a lot of magic is bottled so we can enjoy it as well as others.
Old 4th August 2018
  #103
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhamilton View Post
It will be interesting to see what comes next as music sounds more in a rut than ever (to me). I can't imagine something coming even a little out of left field at this point.

Even with punk shaking things up (a little), I think in the 1970s there were many ways to produce a song...almost as many as there were artists (many having a somewhat distinct "sound"). But maybe it only seems that way to me because I'm into that period....maybe there's little difference between The Sex Pistols and The Bee Gees to someone uninterested.
I was really excited by music going into the 1970s, there were a lot of cool ideas still in play, but as the labels became better at predicting hits and creating formulas, I found the bland music they tended to produce quite boring. And I was distressed by what happened to the hippie ethos that guided the late 60s as the mainstream culture absorbed some of the most annoying and superficial trappings of that explosion of creativity and celebration of cultural freedom. Flowered polyester hippie shirts, anyone? Horrible 'designer' bell bottoms? By 1975, I was horrified by what was happening with mainstream rock/pop. The early disco scene was dying out -- but would soon be replaced by the 'K-Martization of disco' as I called it at the time, the substitution of washed out, string-laden, sexless beat 'dance' music for the funk and R&B I'd been dancing to in the early 70s scene. Bu after the mainstreaming of disco in '76 it became so bland, so by the numbers, so uninviting to anyone but someone looking for the cultural equivalent of quaaludes...

I found I had to reach farther and farther from the cultural norm to find interesting music, whereas only a half decade or so before, innovative, creative pop of all sorts was flowering throughout the popular culture. Not all of it was equally brilliant, of course, but there was such variety, a spirit of adventure.

But, of course, it's cyclic. More periods of change and creative growth rolled through, in waves, though none quite as pan-cultural -- or interdisciplinary -- or stylistically recombinant. (I have to say, I've often found it odd how many of my now aged contemporaries have failed to see the parallels to and and echoes of the 1960s as musical upheavals have come and gone. I, myself, haven't always liked them, but at least I recognize the process.)

(And, of course, lots of flowers poked up through the concrete in the 1970s, too. But I look at the Hot Hundreds of those years and I just shake my damn head. I just wasn't a Three Dog Night/Billy Joel/Journey kind of guy. Lots of folks were. God love 'em.)

Last edited by theblue1; 4th August 2018 at 03:33 AM..
Old 4th August 2018
  #104
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ponzi View Post
I was in New Orleans, pre flood, and there was a group of kids playing on the most beat up and tarnished brass instruments I could imagine. I contributed to their cause and they played St James Infirmary at my request. I felt it was the essence of pure jazz. My first thought was wouldn't it be great to record it, but I realized that the magic of that moment could not be bottled.

The beauty of recorded music, is a lot of magic is bottled so we can enjoy it as well as others.
Oh yes. I loved Flood's productions...

Old 4th August 2018
  #105
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Those guys were out to please themselves first. That's the lesson.
Hedonism? A lesson all too common now. Think I'll pass.
Old 4th August 2018
  #106
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewire View Post
Hedonism? A lesson all too common now. Think I'll pass.
an artist making art to his own standards is not "hedonism"

there's a difference between "pleasing yourself" and "pleasuring yourself"!
Old 4th August 2018
  #107
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
an artist making art to his own standards is not "hedonism"

there's a difference between "pleasing yourself" and "pleasuring yourself"!
I totally agree. But there seems to be a certain self-indulgence that comes with the territory. No?
Old 4th August 2018
  #108
Lives for gear
 
Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewire View Post
I totally agree. But there seems to be a certain self-indulgence that comes with the territory. No?
Not necessarily - the idea should be to make the album you want to hear.

Authors often say this when asked why they've written a certain book, usually they say "I looked for a book on [fill-in-the-blank] but couldn't find one, so i wrote the book I wanted to read."

In a career that's likely to wear you down, it's better to do the work you enjoy.
Old 4th August 2018
  #109
Lives for gear
 

Ricky Nelson in his song "Garden Party" shared with the world the impossibility of wearing a collar of expectation when it no longer fit: "you can't please everyone so you may as well please yourself".
I had my first opportunity to manage a major musical change over for a well established Bluegrass Band in 1974. The band had an established instrumental star performer as leader and several very young extremely talented singer/musicians that were expertly covering first generation Bluegrass performers. The music they bought and listened to was not the Standard fare of Bill Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs and Jimmy Martin but the first generation stuff was what they were performing at gigs all over the country.
My first reorganization mtg. was to ascertain any common preference in particular songs band members held that could be arranged to fit the acoustic Bluegrass format we were in. Once the creative spigot was turned on my job to listen & evaluate the experimental arrangements these talented men were producing was a wonderful creative experience.
The weekly woodshed work took 3 months and when we went into the studio all tracks were finished in two 6 hour sessions. This was the first opportunity J.D. Crowe, Tony Rice, Ricky Skaggs & Jerry Douglas had to find their own collective musical collar.

Rounder 044 "The Old Home Place" was tracked in early Jan. 1975 and Rounder records finally got it released in late August 1975. At that point, after a fabulous, infamous 1975 festival performance season, the band had decided to pursue individual opportunities. The record reviews were mixed at best because the sound was not the expected traditional fare; but radio broadcasters loved it , played it and when JD brought an all new band to the festival scene the following spring The parking lot bands were all playing various cuts from the project.
Ricky Nelson was right: "You may as well please your self"!
Hugh
Old 4th August 2018
  #110
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewire View Post
Hedonism?
You're right. I've yielded to the musical temptations of the flesh.

From now on it's nothing but ADM.
Old 4th August 2018
  #111
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
You're right. I've yielded to the musical temptations of the flesh.

From now on it's nothing but ADM.
Which ADM?

Acute disseminated encephalomyelitis
Archer Daniels Midland
Average Daily Membership
Administrative Template
Architecture Development Method
Adaptive*Delta*Modulation
Atomic*Demolition*Munition
Assistant*District*Manager
Assyrian*Democratic*Movement

There are maybe a hundred more.
And funny how every damn acronym now seems to match a piece of gear in the GS database!
Old 4th August 2018
  #112
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Which ADM?

And funny how every damn acronym now seems to match a piece of gear in the GS database!
I want one...or two.
Old 4th August 2018
  #113
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
Which ADM?
Amish Dance Music.
Old 4th August 2018
  #114
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Amish Dance Music.
Or Acoustic Dance Music? Same thing?
Old 4th August 2018
  #115
Lives for gear
 
toledo3's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Actually the most amazing thing about music is how universal the emotion communicated can be. If ANYBODY rolls their eyes, it's just bad production that drew them into their left brain. Musicians often make those kinds of judgments but not ordinary people in my experience. Motown had absolutely everything screened by non-musicians and one result was the highest percentage of releases being hits in history.
Well, for years, I thought of many Motown recordings as sounding quite bad, and it always would draw me out of the song. Maybe not later stuff as much as maybe some earlier Supremes, Smokey...just seemed a bit tinny and not mic’ed well, even in comparison to other things recorded in the same years.

Does that mean it was bad production? I don’t think so. It meant I was a less receptive listener, and also in that case, a less experienced listener. I feel quite the opposite now, from how I felt as a kid/teen.

There are great recordings that were done with very continuous performances, great recordings that have been all chopped up and you can’t tell, and great ones that have been chopped up and you can tell but it doesn’t matter because it fits the song.

I’d make the argument (mildly), that it boils down to something more general; does the listener think that the end result sounds intentional. Perspective on that can change over time, and thus, open people up to music over time. The same way I got my head out of my butt about some Motown.
Old 4th August 2018
  #116
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

We were very aware of our sonic shortcomings.
Old 4th August 2018
  #117
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewire View Post
Or Acoustic Dance Music? Same thing?
Don't think so. Acoustic dance music, though I've never heard it called that, is an actual thing. But just like Charlie don't surf, the Amish don't dance.
Old 4th August 2018
  #118
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
the Amish don't dance.
Oops. Didn't know that.
Old 4th August 2018
  #119
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by onewire View Post
Oops. Didn't know that.
And they don't take selfies. :-)
Old 4th August 2018
  #120
Lives for gear
 
robert82's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
We were very aware of our sonic shortcomings.
Sonics be damned!
I think in the case of the rise of an artform (Motown, real R&B) sonic shortcomings can be looked past to hear the pure joy in the songs themselves.

My little AM radio was permanently plugged into my head with XERB, the Tijuana 50,000 watt blowtorch, with Wolfman Jack at the board. Part of what helped me get through my teen years.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
EthanBass / Work In Progress / Advice Requested / Show and Tell / Artist Showcase / Mix-Offs
4
jdjustice / Work In Progress / Advice Requested / Show and Tell / Artist Showcase / Mix-Offs
8
trickydicky / The Good News Channel
4
indie / The Good News Channel
6

Forum Jump
Forum Jump