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Bob Clearmountain talks about the Pod! Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 11th September 2007
  #181
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amost's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
I agree with this - it is much more difficult to get a good distortion sound out of a POD than a clean sound.
weird, see I think the clean sound kinda sucks worse in the Pod. I mean it's clean but it jut kinda lays there.
Old 11th September 2007
  #182
Gear Nut
 

OK, let’s all calm down now. I’m really sorry to have caused such a commotion. I should have learned after the tissue-paper-over-the-NS10M-tweeter thing to just keep my trap shut! I just never think anyone’s paying that much attention—jeeeeze!

Anyway, I would just like to make sure you all know that I think Line 6 makes some tremendous products. As I said in the original quote, I use Amp Farm all the time without any problems, other than the fact that I’m a ****ty guitar player. I also agree whole-heartedly with those who have pointed out that the Pod’s clean sounds can work quite well in a mix. It’s really just the over-driven, “tube amp” distortion-type sounds that I have a problem with.

They say a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, but sometimes it can help explain things that otherwise make very little sense. I mean, why do I have such a hard time with the Pod’s distorted sounds? Amp Farm—although not as good as a well-recorded, quality guitar amp—will deliver quite acceptable results. The Pod is made by the same company, so many of the algorithms are, more than likely, quite similar. I don’t know a lot about digital technology, but I’ve picked up a bit by hanging out with the brilliant folks at Apogee, so here’s my partially educated theory:

Once a guitar sound becomes distorted, the waveform becomes extremely more complex than if it were a clean, more sine-wave like sound. These complex waveforms can be quite a bit more difficult for digital converters to deal with, which is why good converters tend to be rather expensive. Cheaper converters will either filter the high end away too soon reducing the 'tone' or they will alias and create nasty artifacts that weren’t in the original signal. So I’m thinking that, because the Pod is a very reasonably-priced, well-built little box, most of the expense went into the slick form-factor, the excellent user interface and developing the algorithms, so there probably wasn’t much left over for the converters. Perhaps this is why it sounds rather nasty on those complex wave forms?

It’s just a theory.

Look, it’s not that I necessarily think the Pod’s sounds are bad, it’s just that something very odd happens when I (notice that I said “I”—not anyone else) try to fit a distorted Pod guitar sound into a mix. I can get almost any other guitar sound to work. It drives me nuts!

Clearmountain
Old 11th September 2007
  #183
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Bob-

Glad to see you joining in the thread. Since you're here, if you wouldn't mind answering a question it may clear a few things up...reading the quote in the original post it made it sound more like your negative experience has been with tracks given to you to mix that were done through a Pod, is that correct? Have you had much experience working with a Pod yourself? I'm just wondering if your negative experience has more to do with the way the tracks were recorded than with the Pod itself.
Old 11th September 2007
  #184
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Bob-

Great to have you here. For my part, even though it may not have sounded it, I was pretty calm in my response. Like Duardo, I think having the person who's quote we're discussing actually here is a great opportunity to continue (or bring back) a meaningful dialog on this whole POD deal :-)

I'll second his question about working with the POD tracks... Obviously when using Amplitube you have the ability to tweak and tweaze the tone with your own hands and ears, and not get handed someone elses idea of what good guitar sound is. (I know I've been handed badly tracked material from lots of people and it drives me nuts when I can't get things to sit right because of a tracking flaw)

So I guess I'll second his question... I read your part about the converters and that seems to make sense to me, esp if you've played exensively with hardware PODS with the same result.

Once again, it's great to have you here! I look forward to this discussion :-)
Old 11th September 2007
  #185
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travisbrown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MixShmix View Post
Once a guitar sound becomes distorted, the waveform becomes extremely more complex than if it were a clean, more sine-wave like sound. These complex waveforms can be quite a bit more difficult for digital converters to deal with, which is why good converters tend to be rather expensive. Cheaper converters will either filter the high end away too soon reducing the 'tone' or they will alias and create nasty artifacts that weren’t in the original signal. So I’m thinking that, because the Pod is a very reasonably-priced, well-built little box, most of the expense went into the slick form-factor, the excellent user interface and developing the algorithms, so there probably wasn’t much left over for the converters. Perhaps this is why it sounds rather nasty on those complex wave forms?
I've never A/B'd the digital and analogue outs on the POD. If the above were the case, perhaps using the digi out or USB would work better. Then you don't have any converters to deal with. Well, the input converters, but no-one is complaining about those yet.

I guess the one wouldn't experience the same conversion problem with VST/AU/RTA amps like Guitar Rig, etc. either.

Bob theorizes that the problem may lie in that distorted sounds are so complex. If this is the case, and if it's not converters, then perhaps it is that such complex sounds can not be modeled well yet. Insufficient algorithms or some other such hocus pocus. I think this is one of the reasons realistic modeled pianos are so difficult to attain - the algorithms to create the bloom must be incredibly complex. Sample-based pianos still sound better from what I've heard.

All this being said, The Edge used a lot of Line 6 distortion on How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb and it sounds pretty good. They even made him a custom rack unit because he'd save four presets on his stompbox modeler, then start another. He had such a collection of L6 distortion modelers that he couldn't take them all on tour so he requested a rack unit. I think this eventually became the DM4Pro.
Old 11th September 2007
  #186
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travisbrown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by MixShmix View Post
Once a guitar sound becomes distorted, the waveform becomes extremely more complex than if it were a clean, more sine-wave like sound. These complex waveforms can be quite a bit more difficult for digital converters to deal with, which is why good converters tend to be rather expensive. Cheaper converters will either filter the high end away too soon reducing the 'tone' or they will alias and create nasty artifacts that weren’t in the original signal. So I’m thinking that, because the Pod is a very reasonably-priced, well-built little box, most of the expense went into the slick form-factor, the excellent user interface and developing the algorithms, so there probably wasn’t much left over for the converters. Perhaps this is why it sounds rather nasty on those complex wave forms?
I've never A/B'd the digital and analogue outs on the POD. If the above were the case, perhaps using the digi out or USB would work better. Then you don't have any converters to deal with. Well, the input converters, but no-one is complaining about those yet.

I guess the same would hold true for the VST/AU/RTA amps like Guitar Rig, etc.

Bob theorizes that the problem may lie in that distorted sounds are so complex. If this is the case, and if it's not converters, then perhaps it is that such complex sounds can not be modeled well yet. Insufficient algorithms or some other such hocus pocus.

All this being said, The Edge used a lot of Line 6 distortion on How To Dismantle An Atomic Bomb and it sounds pretty good. They even made him a custom rack unit because he'd save four presets on his stompbox modeler, then start another. He had such a collection of L6 distortion modelers that he requested a rack unit. I think this eventually became the DM4Pro.
Old 11th September 2007
  #187
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Bob Ross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
I've never A/B'd the digital and analogue outs on the POD. If the above were the case, perhaps using the digi out or USB would work better. Then you don't have any converters to deal with. Well, the input converters, but no-one is complaining about those yet.

Actually, I presumed those were the converters Mr. Clearmountain was complaining about.
Old 11th September 2007
  #188
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FireMoon's Avatar
Would this be the same Mr Clearmountain who made an absolute Pigs Ear of the Free recordings by adding totally spurious, and totally uncalled for, reverbs on everything and , to this day, seemingly, doesn't understand why every Free fan thinks it sounds bloody awful??heh
Old 11th September 2007
  #189
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMoon View Post
Would this be the same Mr Clearmountain who made an absolute Pigs Ear of the Free recordings by adding totally spurious, and totally uncalled for, reverbs on everything and , to this day, seemingly, doesn't understand why every Free fan thinks it sounds bloody awful??heh
You are correct, sir. I also feel that abomination sounds like crap, and am totally embarrased about it. I really sucked back then, didn't I? What's worse than the 'verb is the outrageous use of drum samples! This is not a valid excuse, but at the time I was doing what I thought the record company wanted (they liked it) and sampling was a new, fun thing. I was hired to make it sound somehow different, and that's what I came up with. Being a Free fan myself (believe it or not) I would have done anything just to get my hands on those tapes and hear how they were recorded—to be able to solo each individual track—wouldn't you? That was really fun! Sorry it had such **** results.

I can't listen to it now. I would advise others not to as well. The original mixes are perfect!

And how would you know what I do or don't understand?
Old 11th September 2007
  #190
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travisbrown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross View Post
Actually, I presumed those were the converters Mr. Clearmountain was complaining about.
But that would mean putting distorted signal into the POD. Possibly, but I don't think Bob meant that unless we are talking about a signal chain other than guitar -->POD, since he's theorizing about the converters not being able to handle distortion. I assumed he meant output converters.

By the bye...anyone hear of any POD Mods?
Old 11th September 2007
  #191
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soundawg's Avatar
 

I have to agree with Bob here - my experience with the pod was this...

A) I have used boogie and fender and marshall in my band with no problem.

B) I try and I like the pod pro (on my own)- so I take it to rehearsal and try it with the band

C) I can't get my sound to sit right (live or studio)

Strange - but I like the ease of use, fast dial in to a new sound, like the sounds etc... but I just can't fit in with this thing.

It's starts out too quiet and can't seem to be heard - so the drummer asks for more volume from me - I turn up - now I'm way too loud.

Eventually the band asks me to dump the thing and go back to any other alternative... I couldn't agree more.

Pod to me sounds OK on it's own and as a practice tool (if you can ignore the latency) - but doesn't seem to stick out, or stay where it is supposed to in a mix.

Soundawg
Old 11th September 2007
  #192
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colinmiller's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMoon View Post
Would this be the same Mr Clearmountain who made an absolute Pigs Ear of the Free recordings by adding totally spurious, and totally uncalled for, reverbs on everything and , to this day, seemingly, doesn't understand why every Free fan thinks it sounds bloody awful??heh

And the same guy who brought the art of enginering and recording to a level never before seen. The same guy who raised the industry standards and who's work was so good that it shaped the trends of music itself. Everyone no matter how good the are has failed on a project from time to time. There isn't an engineer alive whom I haven't heard do a crappy job on something. But the real measurement isn't only their failures, but their entire work. Can you say you have had as many successes as he has?
Old 11th September 2007
  #193
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MixShmix View Post
You are correct, sir. I also feel that abomination sounds like crap, and am totally embarrased about it. I really sucked back then, didn't I? What's worse than the 'verb is the outrageous use of drum samples! This is not a valid excuse, but at the time I was doing what I thought the record company wanted (they liked it) and sampling was a new, fun thing. I was hired to make it sound somehow different, and that's what I came up with. Being a Free fan myself (believe it or not) I would have done anything just to get my hands on those tapes and hear how they were recorded—to be able to solo each individual track—wouldn't you? That was really fun! Sorry it had such **** results.

I can't listen to it now. I would advise others not to as well. The original mixes are perfect!

And how would you know what I do or don't understand?
I have to give the ultimate respect to you for your response. To be one of the best ever and to have such perspective and humility in the face of this scathing post. It should be a huge lesson to us all, and that is, we only know what we know at the time and do the best we can under the circumstances with the knowledge that we have.
Old 11th September 2007
  #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
But that would mean putting distorted signal into the POD. Possibly, but I don't think Bob meant that unless we are talking about a signal chain other than guitar -->POD, since he's theorizing about the converters not being able to handle distortion. I assumed he meant output converters.

By the bye...anyone hear of any POD Mods?
i've tested the digi out of our pod XT pro against the analog outs and there's no noticeable difference.
Old 11th September 2007
  #195
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taturana's Avatar
the pod XT in the hands of a competent engineer/musician, can sound just fine...

i believe in using all kinds of gear to get the sound i want, and that usually means mixing all kinds of guitars (miked amps, direct, pod, Gearbox, Amplitube, Guitar Rig, etc...) I´ve even got a great guitar sound once with a direct box and a tech21 xxl ... it was fizzy, but that´s exactly what i wanted on that especific sound.

i don´t like the distortion sound on the pod much... it seems a bit harsh, so i always use it in conjunction with analog od/distortion pedals and sometimes i put it thru an amp and mike it...

and i always track the original direct guitar (bass) sound too, so i can reamp it (or even re-pod it!)

it´s a great tool... both in the studio and live.

that said, i do admire Bob C´s work a lot, but have my own personal opinion on the subject.

If it sounds good it is good.
Old 11th September 2007
  #196
Lives for gear
I agree with Bob about the POD. The reason I think it is so tough to mix is also because of the speaker simulation. That ruins everything.

An example I have is Amplitube 2. Great program if you know how to tweak it. You have to turn the speaker sim off in that puppy or else you will never know the power of it. Add a real quality speaker impulse after it, and suddenly everything changes. Mixing is waaaaay easier..and you can make some amazing distortion sounds that you are not afraid to bury in a mix.

The main enemny of an amp sim, IMO is the speaker sims in it...do not use them. This is why I really applaud that guy Nick Crowe on making a free VST that is a preamp only and is meant to be combined with impulses. For High gain, this destroys the POD and it costs 0.
Old 11th September 2007
  #197
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FireMoon's Avatar
Mr Mix.... So gracious of you to own up to that one, I agree it was a tad below the belt given the rest of your pantheon of work. However, it does illustrate well, we all have our off days and times when we bow to outside pressure and current trends.

Sorry, but i have to disagree over the amp mod thing though..The reason i bought one was i could plug a Les Paul into it and dial up a damn good approximation of the Kossof tone. Therein lies the rub i can do it because i whallop the guitar like Kossof does , not tickle the damn thing, as so many seem to today... Oh, and i use strings not cats whiskers that have been shaved.. heh

And therin , i believe, lies some of the trouble people have with amp modellers. The expectation that using any old guitar you can replicate certain tones. Ignoring that technique is paramount, are there truly that many famous guitarists use a Les Paul through a vox? No? and why not?..Probably because it's just not really a *right* combination, surely an amp sim that shows that up, is merely reproducing that which we already know?.It's a tad daft to go blaming the amp sim in a case like that IMHO.

I would say the truth is this... If you want Kossof through a vintage marshall try using an amp modeller before you plug in a Vox/Mesa Boogie amp.
Old 11th September 2007
  #198
Quote:
Originally Posted by FireMoon View Post
Would this be the same Mr Clearmountain who made an absolute Pigs Ear of the Free recordings by adding totally spurious, and totally uncalled for, reverbs on everything and , to this day, seemingly, doesn't understand why every Free fan thinks it sounds bloody awful??heh
That would be the Bob Clearmountain that mixed Shawn Colvins "few small repairs". Any time I feel cocky as a mixer, all I have to do is listen to Bob's work on that album and it will knock me back into my place.
Old 11th September 2007
  #199
Gear Addict
 
InstituteOfNoise's Avatar
 

As one said here, it's really in the hands of someone competent in using the POD and spending the time with it. To get the "right sound" it's much more of pairing the right guitar with the proper patch details. It's so common for one use an ultra hot pickup for the patch with a lot of gain resulting in the dreaded fizz issue. The web is flooded with clips like that.

I do quite a bit of beta testing for Line 6 and I do know the characteristics of the real amps and specific guitars/pickups and how they react to things and how it should sound. There are times I'm amazed how close it really is when I spend the time on a tone. And many times I just can't get more out of a patch I'm working on and I will go back and re-cut parts with a real amp. Lately I use the POD with my Atomic Amp quite a bit. Versatility and still get the tube tone. win/win in one small package.

There was mention of any POD mods. There were a few floating around back in the version 1.0 days, but I myself have never heard of any mods surfacing in the past 4-5 years beign sort of close to the fire.

I also use a product by Red Iron Amps outta Texas, by a fellow named Paul Sanchez who used to work at Kendrick Amplifcation. He makes a product called the Buffer2. It uses 2 12AU7 tubes and has a gain and tone cut knob for each set of stereo in/outs. An LA engineer friend of mine Adam Kagan did a writeup for it in TapeOp last year. It not only buffers and adds a slightwarming gain stage to the POD, it's really useful for other things in your mix.

For any of you here in L.A. that are interested in check this device out, feel free to contact me and we can work out tryout for you. I have a desk top and a studio rack version. I know for a fact Dean Parks uses his quite a bit. He borrowed mine for a bit to use on sessions where he could only use his POD or Tonelab. He loves his!
Old 11th September 2007
  #200
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taturana's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK1 View Post
OK, so who has run a pod through the fx return of a tube amp and micd it ?

Any thoughts on this ?

i use it live like that with my mesa-boogie combo.... never had problems with the sound...
Old 11th September 2007
  #201
Gear Addict
 
InstituteOfNoise's Avatar
 

My live rig is 2 Atomic Amps in stereo, which are designed for the POD. They are mic'd. Sounds stellar!
Old 11th September 2007
  #202
Quote:
Originally Posted by InstituteOfNoise View Post
I do quite a bit of beta testing for Line 6 and I do know the characteristics of the real amps and specific guitars/pickups and how they react to things and how it should sound. There are times I'm amazed how close it really is when I spend the time on a tone.
Hey ION, could you direct us to some good examples of your pod direct successes? Looking for examples in a full band with vocals context. Thanks.
Old 11th September 2007
  #203
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Bob Ross's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Ross
Actually, I presumed those were the converters Mr. Clearmountain was complaining about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
But that would mean putting distorted signal into the POD. Possibly, but I don't think Bob meant that unless we are talking about a signal chain other than guitar -->POD, since he's theorizing about the converters not being able to handle distortion. I assumed he meant output converters.

Upon re-reading Mr. Clearmountain's post I now see why you thought that. What occurred to me the first time I (apparently too quickly) read his post was that it was the non-linear spuria that are inherent in *any* electric guitar signal that get gnarlificated by the A/D converter, and then when you try to model Distortion or Overdrive based on this gnarly digital signal it all just turns to ****.

That may not be at all what Mr. Clearmountain meant though...but it does strike me as being a more plausible explanation than that it's a problem with the D/A converters...because, as baikonour pointed out (and I would concur) the digital output of a POD sounds pretty indistinguishable from the analog output.

btw, if my interpretation of Mr. Clearmountain's post is correct the problem could conceivably be addressed by low-pass filtering the guitar signal in the analog domain before it even gets near the POD.

BC, whaddya think?
Old 11th September 2007
  #204
Lives for gear
Here is a guy who loves the Pod

Hello,
This was one of my earlier recording projects as an engineer. It was done all digital with some decent pres. The guy I worked with is extremely talented and played all of the instruments. He made the Pod sound respectable. You be the judge. Maybe, I like the tune and get over the sonics of the Pod. I am not a supporter of the pod. I love the sound of fine tube amp, but good musicians make up for other problems.

http://riverbendstudio.com/stash/Cli...hingToHide.mp3

Bob,
Great to see you here. Always an inspiration to hear your work.

Jeff Oliver - RiverBend Studio.
Old 11th September 2007
  #205
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robot gigante's Avatar
BC, it is for sure great to see you here.

I think the Pod drives a lot of people nuts, not just you. There have been plenty of heated discussions like this one about the Pod here before, and so your comment just triggered another one.

Personally if your comment causes anyone whose music I get to mix to use an amp for their distorted guitars instead of a Pod, then I owe you a big thanks since I really struggle with guitars tracked through a Pod!

(Yes for all you pro-Pod people out there, I imagine that my clients should probably figure out how use the Pod better, that might help too)
Old 12th September 2007
  #206
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pootkao's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by kafka View Post
Sure. That would be mine. And to recap I'll summarize in the following manner:

1.) If you're good it doesn't matter what you use
2.) If you're not good it also doesn't matter what you use - but for a different reason than if you were good.
3.) Some people who are very good have really strong opinions about how to do things, which sometimes differ from what other very good people think
3a.) It's sometimes useful to listen to people who are good and picky
3b.) Part of being good is to know when to listen to people, and when to disregard them
4.) Some people who are not good also have strong opinions about how to do things. However, their opinion is irrelevant, no matter how loudly they try to voice it.
5.) Bob Clearmountain makes a lot more money than I do.
You forgot the last, but most relevant and simple one:

6. POD's suck.
Old 12th September 2007
  #207
Gear Addict
 
InstituteOfNoise's Avatar
 

RCM, I guess I don't have anything online at the moment that has vocals in band setting where a POD is layered in. I'm surprised I dont, but I'll dig something up...

Until I can find something I can upload (which I do), I do have a couple of little clips of some Toneport/POD stuff I just did. This is some quick and dirty short temp cues I did for a film my buddy was editing. He wanted some bluesy greasy but still sorta modern sounding. For really quick stuff it worked well. All were done using smaller/older amp models which many folks steer away from for some reason, like the Gretsch/Supro, Tweed Champ/Deluxe, maybe a JTM45 model...
:: Andy Z's Home of the L.A. Line 6 Users Group - TonePort DI Demos ::

This one is using the POD into an Atomic 1x12 50w. Uses about 5-6 patches. Sorry for the quality. This one was all done on MBox2 and G4 Powerbook, and particulairly for all the reverb the drummer somehow convinced me to use. Ugh! Was sort of supposed to be a hint of Zeppelin feel in there... :: AZ Clips/Song Demos ::
Old 12th September 2007
  #208
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm View Post
That would be the Bob Clearmountain that mixed Shawn Colvins "few small repairs". Any time I feel cocky as a mixer, all I have to do is listen to Bob's work on that album and it will knock me back into my place.
Yes man, yes! God damn does that album sound great. That is also one of my favorites for refs.

I agree with Bob. Look no further than the converters in the pod. Simple as that. It has both those things going on, rolled off/cloudy highs, and nasty nasty artifacts. I hate the clean sound worse than the distorted sound. That being said, bypass the converters, use a great di, and use the gearbox plugin. Then you can see what they meant, which is quite useable.
Old 12th September 2007
  #209
SK1
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SK1's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by InstituteOfNoise View Post
RCM, I guess I don't have anything online at the moment that has vocals in band setting where a POD is layered in. I'm surprised I dont, but I'll dig something up...

Until I can find something I can upload (which I do), I do have a couple of little clips of some Toneport/POD stuff I just did. This is some quick and dirty short temp cues I did for a film my buddy was editing. He wanted some bluesy greasy but still sorta modern sounding. For really quick stuff it worked well. All were done using smaller/older amp models which many folks steer away from for some reason, like the Gretsch/Supro, Tweed Champ/Deluxe, maybe a JTM45 model...
:: Andy Z's Home of the L.A. Line 6 Users Group - TonePort DI Demos ::

This one is using the POD into an Atomic 1x12 50w. Uses about 5-6 patches. Sorry for the quality. This one was all done on MBox2 and G4 Powerbook, and particulairly for all the reverb the drummer somehow convinced me to use. Ugh! Was sort of supposed to be a hint of Zeppelin feel in there... :: AZ Clips/Song Demos ::
Oh ****..... Andy Z is on gearslutz.

This is a prime example of what I've been saying about using the pod through an amp. It also helps that Andy's wooping some ass on the tracks. I've gotten similar tones putting the pod through the effects return of a carvin all tube mts 3200.

Great job dude.

Welcome to gearslutz Andy !
Old 12th September 2007
  #210
js1
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I can think of a number of possible reasons that the Pod doesn't sound like Amp Farm - bit depth of the processing, sample rate, bandwidth limiting filters used, etc. For me, the Pod reminds me of one of those optical illusions that, once you can see it, you always see it (but not in a good way). Once you pick up on the artifacts, you can never ignore them. And in my case, they drive me nuts.

But what's interesting is that they now have the Gearbox VST plug in, so you can hear the models outside the Pod. They sound better.

And, more interesting is that you can run them at 88.2 or 96K. I only did a quick test at 88.2 the other night when I should have known better and headed to bed (kind of like now), so it would be premature of me to make bold statements. But I forgot about the modeling and simply enjoyed playing guitar.

js
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