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Bob Clearmountain talks about the Pod! Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 5th September 2007
  #31
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Dyer Maker's Avatar
 

I always wonder why the Line 6 booth at a trade show is not full of people falling on the floor laughing when the presenter says "this is the Vox AC30 emulation"
Old 5th September 2007
  #32
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A gun in the studio in the wrong hands can produce a diaster as well.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/...ster-jay_N.htm
Old 5th September 2007
  #33
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Does the mixing problem occur in software amps such as Guitar Rig and the like? Or is it specifically the POD?
Old 5th September 2007
  #34
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I use the Pod all the time and on all sorts of things, vocals, sound effects, even drums.

BUT

I never use it on guitars. It's not much good at guitars. Tube amps are better.
Old 5th September 2007
  #35
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"mixing table" lol
Old 5th September 2007
  #36
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I've owned quite a bit of Line 6 gear over the years. Amps, POD's, pedals, etc... most of it collects dust but it all has its place. I will never use the Line 6 amp models live because they can't touch a decent tube amp for any kind of dynamic playing. It feels absent under my fingers in a way that I can't describe, and I'm sure most of you already understand.

That said, I demo a lot of tracks in my studio. Sometimes I use PODS and pump them through Neves and a HEDD. There are times where I am quite happy with the result, and there are other times and other tracks that call for a different (purist) approach.

In the hands of a capable player and on the right material the PODs can deliver. If U2 sends you a mix and The Edge happens to use a POD or his rackmount Line 6 amp modeler he had custom made for him you're going to turn the job down?

I mean no disrespect to the original poster or the many talented folks on this forum, but it seems pretty hypocritical for any pro's here that bitch about POD's and turn around to use any DAW. Isn't there a sonic trade-off between the traditional discrete analog console and tape? Where then is your integrity about your sound if you use a DAW instead of a purely analog signal path? What level of compromise is acceptable to you? Do you think you can get similar results in less time with more reliability using the digital world? News flash.... there are guitarists all over the world that can do the same thing with their modeling based rigs. Get over it. You're probably just angry that the music that comes into your studio is underperformed or just plain bad. A legitimate gripe for sure, but not the fault of Line 6.

I think it would be much more productive to request capable playing from all of the ****ty guitarists in the world rather than criticizing their gear selection. Better yet, be realistic. Since this is part of your workflow, just get the HEDD to wake up some ****ty tracks and make the best of it.

There are lots of really bad songsters and musicians in the world. A lot of them are on pop radio. All of them want to record. On some level, be happy they thought enough of you to ask you to help them bring their dreams to life... no matter how terrible they are.

I apologize for the sour mood, this just hit a nerve.
Old 5th September 2007
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm View Post
- I use Amp Farm all the time. I think the Pod is really for blasting your Strat, Les Paul or whatever through headphones so your mom/girlfriend/wife/bus driver doesn't get annoyed. PLEASE beg, borrow or steal a goddamn guitar amp!!
[/I]

Amp farm uses the same algos as POD V.1...I guess it's been upgraded to XT now?
But anyway Amp farm= POD.

I think the pod XT sound way better than the 1st generation and you can get some really interesting results with it, as it has been mentioned you have to know how to get the best of it...As you do with an real amp+mic+pre etc...
Old 5th September 2007
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lord_bunny View Post
. You don't need a King's X-sized amp collection to make a good record (although it would be nice), but one good amp beats a whole box of second-rate emulations.
LOL Ty Tabor went through a Pod Pro for a few albums --- horrible, and so unlike Ty Tabor's beloved tone
Old 5th September 2007
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark714 View Post
In the hands of a capable player and on the right material the PODs can deliver. If U2 sends you a mix and The Edge happens to use a POD or his rackmount Line 6 amp modeler he had custom made for him you're going to turn the job down?
No, I would mix that record ( I would love to work with U2!!!). It would bum me out that the record would not turn out as well as if they had used real amps. I would make sure I budgeted extra time for the mixes because I would have to spend a lot of extra time overcoming how badly the Pod had screwed up the track. As I have said in many posts before, my problem with the Pod is not that they sound terrible (terrible sounds can be interesting), my problem with them is that they will make all the other instruments and voice on the record sound worse. ( I have not found this to be the case with analog amp emulation, such as a sansamp)

Every time (without exception) a record has come to me to mix and the guitars were done with digital amp modelers, it has been much more of an exercise in trying to fix how badly the guitars have screwed up the record, rather than the creative fun I usually get to have mixing. I do not care if the guitarist has graced the cover of Guitar Player Magazine or just some 16 year old in a local band. If the guitars are cut with fake digital amp modelers it is usually a salvage job.

I am pretty good at mixing so I can do the work to get the mixes to sound OK, There are even some out there that have gotten pretty good acclaim (the trick is to completely emasculate the guitars and get all the power from the other things in the mix), but the quest for a great sounding mix is severely handicapped. As a mixer it seems I have to spend hours to get the fake amp guitar sound usable. An SM57 in front of a vox AC30 (Even if the guitarist uses tons of FX) usually takes about 2 minutes or less to get it sounding great.

I am not saying that there are not tons of other mixers that are much more skilled than I (or BC?), or even that some day the Pod version X.X may record even better than my tube amp collection, but at the moment, 100% of the mixes that have ever come to me with guitars done with digital amp modelers, the fake amps have severely handicapped the mix.

This is not a Line6 bash. They make some very cool delay products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark714 View Post
I mean no disrespect to the original poster
That would be me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark714 View Post
News flash.... there are guitarists all over the world that can do the same thing with their modeling based rigs. Get over it. You're probably just angry that the music that comes into your studio is underperformed or just plain bad. A legitimate gripe for sure, but not the fault of Line 6.
I think it would be much more productive to request capable playing from all of the ****ty guitarists in the world rather than criticizing their gear selection. Better yet, be realistic. Since this is part of your workflow, just get the HEDD to wake up some ****ty tracks and make the best of it.
Thanks for the newsflash and helpful advice. My clients include guys like Steve Morse, Steve Stevens, Adrian Belew, Nels Cline, Robert Fripp and plenty of other "****ty guitarist". Next time I am stuck having to work on their tracks I will ask for more "capable playing" from them or I will just suck it up and make the best of it.
Old 5th September 2007
  #40
Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post
Amp farm uses the same algos as POD V.1...I guess it's been upgraded to XT now?
But anyway Amp farm= POD.

I think the pod XT sound way better than the 1st generation and you can get some really interesting results with it, as it has been mentioned you have to know how to get the best of it...As you do with an real amp+mic+pre etc...
BTW the quote you referenced in your post was from Bob Clearmountain, and not me. I do not use Amp Farm, and when i need to crunch up a non guitar part I prefer to use a sansamp.
Old 5th September 2007
  #41
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I find amp modeling useful for sketching parts, and sometimes as a secondary/tertiary layer to support a mic'ed amp layer, but I can't seem to handle it up front in any mix I do -- ever. It always has this timbre that I liken to some kind of plastic lacquer.

Caveat: I'm not an ME, so there's that grain of salt to take. Still, it's my ears' take.

Anyway, I have a few modeler types: Vox Tonelab, Guitar Rig 2, Fender Cyber Deluxe. All of them deliver limited quality results, to be diplomatic.

And yeah, I spend time tweaking them to better satisfaction. I never understand the "haters just don't know how to use them" retort. Modelers aren't complicated devices, by any stretch. Yet, I've yet to fingd the plastic lacquer toggle for any of them.

And honestly, I usually find it quicker to set up and amp and mics anyway. So, quality aside, real amps often end up offering more productive work speed.
Old 5th September 2007
  #42
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I've owned Plastic On demand (POD v1) for 2 years, and I wasn't able to produce a decent sound with it. The main problems were:
1) the softness of the attack: the very first instants of the attack are missing or lowered
2) the lack of dynamics
3) I'm not Jimi Hendrix

Hearing various sound examples I found that the first problem is very frequent among the amp simulators

Hearing various guitar players I realized that I'm not the only one having the third problem heh
Old 5th September 2007
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm View Post
BTW the quote you referenced in your post was from Bob Clearmountain, and not me.
Yes I know
Thanks for pointing it out.
Old 5th September 2007
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzy dog View Post
I've owned Plastic On demand (POD v1) for 2 years, and I wasn't able to produce a decent sound with it. The main problems were:
1) the softness of the attack: the very first instants of the attack are missing or lowered
2) the lack of dynamics
3) I'm not Jimi Hendrix

Hearing various sound examples I found that the first problem is very frequent among the amp simulators

Hearing various guitar players I realized that I'm not the only one having the third problem heh
The pod XT is much more dynamic and responsive than the V.1 though
Old 5th September 2007
  #45
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PistolP's Avatar
the pod doesn't sound like an amp...
mp3's doesn't sound as good as cd's or their analogue counterparts...
ITB does not sound as dimensional as OTB...

first of, life chances. either you adopt or...
second, it is actually enlightening to come out of the 'gs world' or this 'sound world' and take notice that people we are making music for do really not care, at least most of them.

third, I've used it with no concerns because I never wanted to sound something like traditional

p
Old 5th September 2007
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
I TOTALLY agree with what Bob Clearmountain says.

and if any of you pod lovers on Gearslutz disagree.... let us hear your awesome mixes that use pods (and no amps) and let us compare them to the work of Bob Clearmountain!!!

heh
Okay, I shouldn't but WTF I'll play along....I'm not comparing my mixes to BC obviously & this is just 2 tracks but I actually do not hate the lead tone on this & if I didn't say it was a POD I'm thinkin' you wouldn't know although you might say you do.
asbestos undies on.
Attached Files

24_ Bars.mp3 (921.7 KB, 448 views)

Old 5th September 2007
  #47
i´ve recorded and mixed line6 amps and people using v-amp as a preamp etc and i must say that these things sound quite bad for distorted guitars. used a pod for bass once and that turned out ok. i usually try to talk people out of using stuff like that but if they insist i record a line so i can reamp later.
Old 5th September 2007
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PistolP View Post
first of, life changes. either you adopt or...
...kidnap?
Old 5th September 2007
  #49
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The same complaint could be made about any tracks poorly recorded and handed off to you. Bob Clearmountain is just being bitchy about a piece of gear that is easily used poorly.

Yes, it takes a lot of work to get a good tone out of a PODXT. It can be done and it can be a versatile machine. It's easy to get lacklustre sound out of it. I hear lots of lacklustre sound come out of real amps and it's hard to save them sometimes.

Bob could say the same thing about getting compressed vocal tracks from a demo, or EQ to tape. I can make anything sound like crap with a good compressor.

Bob has every right to refuse tracks done with PODs - it's not worth his time to hope someone took the time to get it right. But it's not that one can't get a good tone; his complaint is that more often it's not so it's easier to just write the whole thing off.

Mastering guys complain about mix engineers who've overcompressed the mix bus.

I secretly think there are more modeled amps in pop production that we like to think.
Old 5th September 2007
  #50
DAS
Gear Head
 

I've had good results with a Pod Pro and XT. I USUALLY have to run it through an amp to get there....though not always. In my experience Amp Farm has a very similar quality to it (not quite the same), so I am a little puzzled by Bob's comments. Maybe the difference is that when Amp Farm is used he is the one using it...or at least has access to the parameters and can "fix" it to his taste.
Old 5th September 2007
  #51
Gear Addict
 

So I am confused here, it is Ronan m ainly against the POD or against all digital guitar amp modelers..including Software/?

Is also againt guitar line recording?
Old 5th September 2007
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amost View Post
Okay, I shouldn't but WTF I'll play along....I'm not comparing my mixes to BC obviously & this is just 2 tracks but I actually do not hate the lead tone on this & if I didn't say it was a POD I'm thinkin' you wouldn't know although you might say you do.
asbestos undies on.
Sounds pretty good. You've clearly found a sound that works for you. It still sounds like a POD to me, though, due to the evenness of the distortion on both louder and softer notes. And no, it didn't jump out at me. I probably would have listened right past it if you hadn't pointed it out - but that's just because you can play. ;-)
Old 5th September 2007
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 84K View Post
Bull****

POD alone, I can understand. But when you get a song where guitars are piling up, the pod, or a palmer or now SPL speaker simulator can really help make a guitar cut through the other guitars in the song. Alone, yes the pod and simulated guitars can sound thin and uninspiring, but they can be good tools for blending in the mix with the big amp'd guitars.
I agree, although amp farm seemed to sound better than the POD.

Who cares if it's a real amp as long as the sound works? Who cares how you get it.
Old 5th September 2007
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amost View Post
Okay, I shouldn't but WTF I'll play along....I'm not comparing my mixes to BC obviously & this is just 2 tracks but I actually do not hate the lead tone on this & if I didn't say it was a POD I'm thinkin' you wouldn't know although you might say you do.
asbestos undies on.
Obviously you haven't the third problem thai I have mentioned
But, focus your attention on the sound of the single notes: the attack isn't as sharp as would be with a real amp. The same is true for the
accompanyment sound.
Old 5th September 2007
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper View Post
I agree, although amp farm seemed to sound better than the POD.

Who cares if it's a real amp as long as the sound works? Who cares how you get it.
As I said earlier- it is the converters.
Try using your Pod PRO XT via AESEBU- I reckon you will be surprised.
Old 5th September 2007
  #56
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Hate the pod, love the pod......

Until recently........I have rarely used the bass pod I bought way back in the ole days....


I just busted it out....for no aparent reason.....

it sounds amazing as a pre-amp.....only.....

Into...DI (radial J-48)

into Apogee Ensemble

Into Logic Pro

................................................

Gretch Hollow body bass-bassPOD-DI-Apogee-Logic PRO

I like......
poor mans set up.....

No more cash left over for one of those killer Pre Amps....

there it is....


e.
Old 5th September 2007
  #57
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Well apparently Brendan O'Brien uses bass pod in the studio --- for overdrive stuff only by the looks of it (according to an interview with the bass player from Incubus) Ben Kenney on the reinvention of Incubus
Quote:
We used the POD for a bit of fuzz here and there. Brendan showed me his secret Bass POD setting but I swore on my life I’d never reveal it. All I can say is a pinch of gain, a drop of treble, and a few pounds of compression and you’re halfway there. When we really wanted the bass to sound offensive, we’d plug it into the Orange, but that’s it.”
Old 5th September 2007
  #58
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Remember in the Bruce Swedien interview/thread where he categorically stated that compressors suck and no one should ever use them?

Y'know, unless you are working with a vocalist with poor control and doesn't know how to work the mic, or drummer who is a little soft in the foot, or bass player who is a bit uneven. He's working with musicians who need little or no compression to control their performance and he's a master engineer, so he can get away with less compression - but it's a pretty good thing for the rest of us. I figure a lot of the time using no compression is like painting without the masking tape - takes a steady hand....

But it was a stupid categorical statement without context. Clearmountain's comment is bordering on the same. I bet if he was honest, he'd actually admit, "well, it's *possible* to get a decent sound out of a POD, but..."

If I were Clearmountain, there's lots of stuff I wouldn't put up with either, so if he doesn't want to work with modeled amp sounds, fair enough.
Old 5th September 2007
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PistolP View Post
the pod doesn't sound like an amp...
mp3's doesn't sound as good as cd's or their analogue counterparts...
ITB does not sound as dimensional as OTB...

first of, life chances. either you adopt or...
second, it is actually enlightening to come out of the 'gs world' or this 'sound world' and take notice that people we are making music for do really not care, at least most of them.


p
wow - what a cop out.

yeah - strive for mediocrity, and just don't care. nice.
Old 5th September 2007
  #60
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In my limited experience I have to agree with Bob.
A direct track with Amp Farm is a different beast and quite usable.
Once you commit the track with a POD there's no going back.
I've tried it with Neves,Api's,tubes,1176's and it just doesn't want to sit properly.
You may be able to get away using it on one track as an effect but if you start to stack tracks with it you're screwed.
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