The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
How to get a "Glassy" guitar sound (clip inside) HELP
Old 31st August 2007
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

How to get a "Glassy" guitar sound (clip inside) HELP

Hi,

So here is my problem (again) : I'm recording some guitar track for my own band. The gear is good (or ok) and the sound is not so bad BUT I just can't acheive exactly what I want. The sound still sound a bit "hard" , and the grain of the tracks is not so beautiful (like it still sound like a "cheap" sound at me).

Here is my chain (4 tracks)

1: Gibson SG 76 -> Orange Head -> Mesa Boogie Cab -> 421 (white one)
2: Gibson SG 76 -> Orange Head -> Orange Cab -> SM57
3: PRS -> Orange Head -> Orange Cab -> M101
4: PRS -> Orange Head -> Orange Cab -> SM57

All mics are angled to avoid the nasty fizz around 10k.
They go to my Amek Big (for the preamp & eq) where I've put a low cut, remove some bass @ 80Hz, add some hi-mid @ 4,5Khz, remove some high @ 12Khz (each time 2 db I think).
No phase problem with the multimic cause it's 4 different takes. Now here are the clip (WAV - sorry for that),

Index of /Dams

Please what do you think of the sound ? I know i'm not a pro but I want to improve so please advice are welcome. I really search for a grainy, organic, glassy sound. My reference for the guitar is the band Poison The Well (MySpace.com - Poison The Well - Ft. Lauderdale / Miami, Florida - Hardcore / Rock / Progressive - www.myspace.com/poisonthewell).

THANKS TO ALL (sorry for my English).
/Nick.

Old 31st August 2007
  #2
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

ps : and I know it's not very tight (drums need some work) and the guitar were just for test. LOL
Old 31st August 2007
  #3
Lives for gear
 
stevetgn's Avatar
Try some mic pre's that are more complimentary to guitar sounds like API, and use a good ribbon mic preferably a Royer 121. Yes its cost money but along with good mic technique that's where the sound come from.

Also use a couple of mics on the cabs, one close up and the other about 12' back (delay the first mic by 12ms to avoid phasing problems) to capture the sound of the whole cab & room rather than just the speaker.

With the right pre, mic and mic position you should be able to get pretty near your sound without eq.

If you have access to one, the low pass filters on a Manley Massive Passive are great for removing "loud amp fizz". They just seem to work better than other filter I've tried.

Hope this helps
Old 31st August 2007
  #4
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Thanks for the tips, yeah it helps. Unfortunatly I haven't any access to other than my Amek & the one in my Fireface. Peraps I can get some Studer but do you think it would be better / smoother (without killing the transient) ?

I will try the high pass in the style of manley, but it will be a plug (no access to this kind of gear in my city).

Thanks.
/Nick.

Old 31st August 2007
  #5
Moderator
 
Blast9's Avatar
Hi Nick -- nice open tones you're getting.

My suggestion would be simply an additional "Fender style" amp with a cleaner ringing sound and slight compression going into the amp to squish the attack slighty.

Or you could try as above but with a Voodoo Labs Sparkle Drive or TS style OD pedal where you can layer a little dirt with the clean

When I think "glassy" -- I always think of Fender Twin. --- Deep scooped juicy clear tone which will layer up very nicey with the Orange "British" mid-range

Have you heard "Halleluja" off Jeff Buckley's "Grace" ?
Old 31st August 2007
  #6
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Hi Blast & Thanks.
Ok, I think I'm gonna record the DI and after that try to blend it with a Fender I can record latter (or peraps try to blend directly the two signal disto & not).

I'm listening at the moment to Hallelujah .... yeah this kind of tone is great. Your right , i'm gonna blend it with some of the Orange. It gonna add some dynamic & it's going to be more glassy and organic. Nice tip man

I can also add some OD with my TS909. To have all those option I think I will keep the DI.

Anyway do you think the Amek pre are a bit hard for what I'm trying to do ? And do you think the studer one are going to be softer ? Peraps I can do Orange with Amek and Fender with Studer ...

And peraps I can do better with my Eq on the Amek Board ?

Thanks you, Blast & Steve.
Anyone esle have advice please ?
/Nick.
Old 31st August 2007
  #7
Lives for gear
 

i'm with blast--when i think "glassy" i think fender strat/tele and a fender amp (twin, princeton, champ, etc). jeff buckley is a great example of this sort of tone. unfortunately, i don't think SG/PRS and Orange/Mesa for "glassy"--those combinations are what i think of when i think of "modern high gain" sounds rather than than "glassy".

i also think of a decent amount of subtle compression when i think "fender glassy". in most cases this compression comes from the amp and the player's attack.

the mics and pres you have should be more than sufficient to get what you're looking for............but unfortunately, in order to record a glassy guitar part, you need it to sound that way before you put the mic there.


cheers,
wade
Old 31st August 2007
  #8
Moderator
 
Blast9's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrface2112 View Post
the mics and pres you have should be more than sufficient to get what you're looking for............but unfortunately, in order to record a glassy guitar part, you need it to sound that way before you put the mic there.


cheers,
wade
thumbsup
Old 31st August 2007
  #9
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Hi MrFace. You say : "but unfortunately, in order to record a glassy guitar part, you need it to sound that way before you put the mic there." Of course I know that LOL ... i'm a noob, but not to this point ....

BUT did you listen to the clip & example that I gave ?
I need a glassy sound but for Hard Core - a glassy modern hi-gain (LOL) if you wish (i'm playing in a band with Will Haven, Converge, Cult of Luna for reference). You know, I think it's better to listen to the clip before giving advice.

I need a smooth sound, and a vintage SG (76) IS smooth (far more than a Telecaster). The sound in the room is good. Now, with my preamp , the sound is a bit hard (allready explained that in my first post). Thanks anyway, MrFace, for giving your opinion... Peraps it's me who didn't explain well : I hi gain sound but still creamy. Now I'm 80% where I want to be with the sound I need 10% to be happy

I will try your advice Blast. Also, I'll try to get a Royer for the micing.
Thanks ya all.
/Nick. (sorry again for my English and if my first post wasn't good at explaining what I'm searching for)
Old 31st August 2007
  #10
Moderator
 
Blast9's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Long_Shaded_Eye View Post
a glassy modern hi-gain

I need a smooth sound... hi gain sound but still creamy.

I will try your advice Blast. Also, I'll try to get a Royer for the micing.
Thanks ya all.
/Nick. (sorry again for my English and if my first post wasn't good at explaining what I'm searching for)
I definitely think the layering trick will work if the clean is just under the Orange... I think I know what you're after... Even though you're going for a smoother humbucker tone, what springs to my mind is AC30 power stage distorrtion from EL84s with single coil pickups --- sort of 3-D crunch with spanky attack, where you have lots of note to note definition, almost "AC/DC" in a way!
Old 31st August 2007
  #11
Lives for gear
 

Nick--

my apologies--i did not listen to your clip. i'm on the road in a hotel on vacation with the family and these laptop speakers aren't much more than distortion generators--certainly not "reference" by any stretch. heh

when i hear someone use the word "glassy" to describe a tone i think "fender clean"......not crunchy/overdriven and still smooth. now i understand what you mean. so again, my apologies for misunderstanding what you've got in mind.

Blast has given you some good advice--you should certainly be able to get that with the Orange and SG--especially with something like a Fender Twin or AC30 layered in there. as he said, the AC30 with single coils is a good reference for that sort of sound.

fwiw, i just put a Seymour Duncan JB Jr pickup in the bridge of my strat and it gives me the exact sound i suspect you're looking for. Chimey and crunchy all at the same time--it's a great combination and a sound i previously did not have at my disposal. great string to string definition with excellent harmonics.

i would definitely try a smoother sounding mic on the cab--a Royer is probably just what the doctor ordered.


cheers,
wade
Old 1st September 2007
  #12
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

It's ok wade, no problem. No need to apologies My description wasn't that clear.I allready nice to answer ...

So everyone agree : I will try to layer a cleaner amp understand the distorded sound (ac30 or twin). I will try to grab a Royer and some studer preamp for that.

Thanks REALLY you all for your nice tip.
Have a nice week end (and holidays)
/Nick
Old 1st September 2007
  #13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Long_Shaded_Eye View Post
Hi,

So here is my problem (again) : I'm recording some guitar track for my own band. The gear is good (or ok) and the sound is not so bad BUT I just can't acheive exactly what I want. The sound still sound a bit "hard" , and the grain of the tracks is not so beautiful (like it still sound like a "cheap" sound at me).

Here is my chain (4 tracks)

1: Gibson SG 76 -> Orange Head -> Mesa Boogie Cab -> 421 (white one)
2: Gibson SG 76 -> Orange Head -> Orange Cab -> SM57
3: PRS -> Orange Head -> Orange Cab -> M101
4: PRS -> Orange Head -> Orange Cab -> SM57

All mics are angled to avoid the nasty fizz around 10k.
They go to my Amek Big (for the preamp & eq) where I've put a low cut, remove some bass @ 80Hz, add some hi-mid @ 4,5Khz, remove some high @ 12Khz (each time 2 db I think).
No phase problem with the multimic cause it's 4 different takes. Now here are the clip (WAV - sorry for that),

Index of /Dams

Please what do you think of the sound ? I know i'm not a pro but I want to improve so please advice are welcome. I really search for a grainy, organic, glassy sound. My reference for the guitar is the band Poison The Well (MySpace.com - Poison The Well - Ft. Lauderdale / Miami, Florida - Hardcore / Rock / Progressive - www.myspace.com/poisonthewell).

THANKS TO ALL (sorry for my English).
/Nick.

Th guitars sound exactly like the recording path suggests.

Assuming that you're happy with the sound coming out of the amp, you should re-track. NEver you the Big's high pass filters as they cut way too high for anything besides percussion. A low end rool off is ok.

You've got no top end definition. Some of the fizziness you might hear when getting the sould will disapper in context as it will be maksed by the cymbals. A lot of the glassy sound you're missing if from aiming away from the cone and not getting the bite to keep up with the rest of the tracks in the mix.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #14
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Nice info Mike,

I will try with removing the low cut (i don't have the technical paper for my board ... peraps the low cut is 90/100 hz ... so I think you're right). Thanks much for this. Where do you think it's better to cut some bass while tracking ? 60 or 80hz ? (I'm cutting at 80 for the moment)

For the moment all mics are angled (like 40 degree), but pointing directly to the cone, about a inch back. You think it's better to try with less angle ? I've tried it poiting directly and it was a bit hard ... especialy with the 421. So for you , I should try with less angle and then change the sound in the room (remove some high on the amp). Cause it was really like "grrzzz" when poiting directly with those setting...

Thanks much for the tips man. It really helps a lot.
/Nick.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #15
you're going to have a heavy sound if you use humbuckers, high gain rock n roll amp, and a dynamic mic. Try a guitar with thinner pickups, in combination with a loud amp set carefully, will give you a glassy tone. If you want it glassy you're best off cutting mids on the amp and using a different mic like a ribbon or condenser mic.

I have a chambered warmoth strat with fralins into an AC 30 with weber blue dogs. It's vintage beatles-y and surfy sounding... if the amp was turned louder and some reverb added, it would be the tone you're looking for. A big part of the glassy sound is single coils and amps cranked for tube compression and sustain.

If you're thinking "this is how you record guitar" you're going to need a more complex understanding on the interaction of guitar, amp, pedal, mics etc.

Good luck... you have to tweak everything and try lots of mics and guitar and amp combinations but a sweet guitar tone is totally worth it
Old 2nd September 2007
  #16
Lives for gear
 
johnwayne's Avatar
 

I use a 61SG reissue and I can get a glassy tone if I need it. I do use a Fender Twin which is amazing when cranked. I took out 2 power tubes and put in Vintage 30 speakers and it is just awesome. I usually crank the thing all the way. If I need a clean sound turn the pickup way done on like 2 or 3 and depending on the part a medium pick or even your fingers may work.

My SG is real sensitive to dynamics so it can be all in the touch. I also use 3 mics on the Twin usually. A 57 on the cone, a 421 on the cone, and an AT 4050 about 8' in front of the amp as kind of a room/verb. For a crisp sound you have got to be directly in front of the cone. If you angle the mic at 45degrees you are not going to get the bite you need for glassy.

I would say mic placement, sound in the room and playing touch will get you there. I don't think you should have your guitar on 10 when doing this either. Neck on 2-6 or try inbetweeen with bridge at 7 and neck on 4. When you hit the right combo you'll know it regarding the mic placement,volume and tone control settings. So much of the guitar sound is in the hands and the volume and tone knobs. You can do so much with just that. Good Luck.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #17
Lives for gear
 
8th_note's Avatar
 

I listened to your clip and the Poison the Well stuff and here's a few thoughts.

1) The Poison the Well sound has less distortion than your guitar sound. I have found that the guitar sound we hear in the room is not the sound we hear on the recording. I usually turn down the gain somewhat on distorted guitars and that helps get the sound we're after. Give that a try and see what happens. Don't be afraid to experiment with a significantly cleaner sound than your're comfortable hearing in the room.

2) PODs get hammered on this forum but this is a good example of where one can be useful. You can split the signal (you should have a box to do this to preserve the correct impedance) and dial in a glassy sound on the POD that wouldn't stand up on it's own but would compliment the sound of your rig.

3) There's a great resource on the web about recording guitars called Slipperman's Recording Distorted Guitars From Hell. It has about every trick in the book and it's an entertaining read. I highly recommend it.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Long_Shaded_Eye View Post
Nice info Mike,

I will try with removing the low cut (i don't have the technical paper for my board ... peraps the low cut is 90/100 hz ... so I think you're right). Thanks much for this. Where do you think it's better to cut some bass while tracking ? 60 or 80hz ? (I'm cutting at 80 for the moment)

For the moment all mics are angled (like 40 degree), but pointing directly to the cone, about a inch back. You think it's better to try with less angle ? I've tried it poiting directly and it was a bit hard ... especialy with the 421. So for you , I should try with less angle and then change the sound in the room (remove some high on the amp). Cause it was really like "grrzzz" when poiting directly with those setting...

Thanks much for the tips man. It really helps a lot.
/Nick.
The low cut on the Big is like 800hz. That's an exageration, but my advice to you is never use it again.

As far as what to cut, I don't get why you think any cut ian necessary.

Also, one big difference between your sounds and your reference os that your guitars are mixed way lower.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #19
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Thanks you all ... very nice tips. I just love GS

By order :

6dyslexiclphnt : I will try to layer a vintage telecaster with the volume turned down as Mr Wayne says. Anyway I have the DI so I think I will reamp latter and experiment different sounds.

Wayne : yeah , I think I will try again with the mic not angled. But in sounded very harsh (especially with the 421) when poiting directly. I've also tried a 57 , a M88, a e609, M101 directly poiting at the cone , and everytime the sound was "hard" in the high mid (but Orange tends to be hard in that part so ....). I will try again and see what I can do.

8th_note : I love Slipperman faq a lot. I allready read it several time, I agree it's very usefull. Thanks anyway for the tip. And you are right , Poison have less less gain , but the sound is still very "crunchy" , please how do they do that ? A lot of layer ?
For the POD nice idea : cause I hate them alone, cause it's to "glassy" ... but as you said it cool be cool mixed together, I will try that at the mix stage.

Mike : I will try to remove this low cut on monday to see what happen but you right, I can ear it now : this low cut is WAY to high for the guitare. Yeah Poison mix their guitare very high , and for the moment, my version is 95% ... we are just making the takes at the moment, so I don't know how loud I will mix them for now.

THANKS YOU ALL FOR THOSE THE NICE TIPS. I will try less gain, add one mic poiting directly, remove the low cut, adding a Telecaster track and put a POD at the mix stage. I will post some new sound on next Thursday , to show if it's better or not this way... but I think it will be.

Just a last question : if I use a lot less of gain, should I use a compressor ? Because with less gain, the sound become a crunch and don't create the "hi-gain feeling" again.

Thanks again for all those nice tips.
/Nick.


Old 2nd September 2007
  #20
Moderator
 
Blast9's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Long_Shaded_Eye View Post


Just a last question : if I use a lot less of gain, should I use a compressor ? Because with less gain, the sound become a crunch and don't create the "hi-gain feeling" again.

Thanks again for all those nice tips.
/Nick.


I think you should just track with your hi gain sound and your lower gain sound together, so you still get the feel and sustain you're used to.

I'm certain you'll get great results
Old 3rd September 2007
  #21
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Ok thanks man for all the great tips and info , I will try to add a Telecaster (a nice guitare from 82, very simple and sound nice) in the setup. I will keep the higain on SG but use less on Telecaster.

Most of the time , please , how many layer of guitare do you use for this kind of music ? Should I do like 3 takes : 1 with SG , 1 with Tele, 1 with PRS and use 2 mic each time ?I planed to do 4 takes. But now I wonder how I could layer all this ? Use multi mic for one take, or just do several takes with different mics (no phase issue).

And how do you pan those layers please ? Usually I do like (1) completly left / (2) like 40% R with the angled mic then for the guitare two (3) completly right (4) 40% L with the angled mic.

Now peraps I will do this :

LEFT : Tele (low gain)
40% L : SG (hi gain)
40% R : SG (hi gain)
RIGHT : Tele (low gain)

Do you think it is right ? Should i keep / add the PRS in this setup ? Where do you think I should put it please ?

Sorry for all those questions lol
Thanks much anyway for all the help allready given.
After working a bit with the eq I found that one thing I really disliked in my original sound was a nasty fizz at 2,6Khz .... awfull. I removed it and it's far better. Now I hope I will have some high definition back with the tele and less gain.

Thanks again.
/Nick.
Old 3rd September 2007
  #22
Lives for gear
 
DeathMonkey's Avatar
 

Some excellent advice in this thread.

Sometimes if I want to tighten and smooth out an amp, I'll use a decent OD pedal as a clean boost in front of the amp. I use a Maxon OD808 (Tube Screamer) with the distortion low, volume up to drive the input. I turn down the gain at the amp.

The new PTW sounds a lot like those old Jawbox tones... reminds me of those Naylor amps. Your Orange might be too thick to get that top end easily... do you have access to a Hiwatt? If it was me, I'd get a fairly clean a sound out of the distortion channel, turning the power amp up to get that snappy transient response from the top end, and add a boost for just a bit of thrust and chug.

I'd also follow the advice of recording one track with a bit more crunch, one with a bit more chime, and blending them. Part of that sound to me, tho, is an amp that is just this side of too clean, then the player leaning into the performance to get that last bit of dirt.


Jest mah deux cents!
Old 4th September 2007
  #23
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Thanks DeathMonkey for those precious advices
I think I gonna trip this (using a lot of the power amp + TS on the Telecaster) ... and lower the knob at the guitare, so I will have a less distorded but creamy, "glassy" takes. Then add a more distorded tracks of the SG. I think I will forget about the PRS (exept for certain parts).

THANKS YOU ALL , IT HAS BEEN A GREAT HELP TO ME.
I'm gonna try ALL of this tomorow, and I will post the new sounds in case someone want to compare the sound with the different methods.

I love you all ... thanks for all this.
/Nick.
Old 5th September 2007
  #24
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Hi everyone

Index of /Dams

The last one is (Pleut pre new Dams) is the new one.
I've made it yesterday and even if it's not finish I find the guitare sound far better. I need to adjust the presence (too present ... especially on the first part) and add a little more gain ... so the sound will mix better.

I tested all your advice and this is what I've done :

For the 2 takes I used a vintage Telecaster into an Ampeg SVT (low preamp, lot of power amp) and a Tube Screamer. All this into a Mesa Cab miced with 1 straight SM57 and one MD421 behind for the ambiance.
Then I've done 1 take with the SG into the Orange amp & Mesa cab, this time with a 57 but angled.

I think I gonna raise the gain a bit of the Tube Screamer , and lower the the tone a bit ... so the guitare sound will blend better.

What do you think of this one please guys ?
I think it's far better , no ? Now the top end is clear.

Thanks you all for the tips & help. I couldn't acheive this, without you.
Man , I love GS.
Old 5th September 2007
  #25
Moderator
 
Blast9's Avatar
Hey sounds great! So that's a tele/TS into an SVT? Sounds similar to Tele >>> Hiwatt on the rdge of breakup.

Peronally I'd leave the brightness/gain as it is on the cleaner track (tele) and just lower the track into the mix a bit more (i.e. blend more with the Orange tracks).

Very interesting progressive vibe! Will this have vox?
Old 5th September 2007
  #26
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Thanks man, you're nice

Yeah we love progressive stuff from the side of Opeth , Tool , Mogwai ... in the end we will have some voice over it. Most of the vox will be screams.

Never heard a Hiwatt .... the SVT is nice for clean stuff cause it didn't distord the transient , so the sound has a lot of attack , and it's quite cold. I like that.

For your tips : I will follow it again (i'm lucky with your advices so .... ), and before touching anything I will try to see what it's like when lowered.

Thanks again for all. I've seen your request on myspace and I will answer soon. Thanks again for all, you've been a GREAT HELP !
/Nick.



Old 5th September 2007
  #27
Gear Maniac
 

and i doubt you'll regret that royer 121...those things rawk
Old 8th September 2007
  #28
Gear Maniac
 
Long_Shaded_Eye's Avatar
 

Yeah I know that but no money for the moment.
I'm still saving for making some DIY (mic, GSSL, some API pre ....).

Thanks again you all for those advice ... I think my guitare recording skills are far better (even if they still are not good) with you. Thanks.
Old 8th September 2007
  #29
Lives for gear
 
lowfreq33's Avatar
 

heh
Attached Thumbnails
How to get a "Glassy" guitar sound (clip inside) HELP-picture-4.png  
Old 8th September 2007
  #30
Lives for gear
 
nathanvacha's Avatar
 

i was just gonna chime in and say 'tele', but it seems you've got plenty of opinions pointing you in the fender direction. you should still be able to get 'sharp' at least with a tele and the orange for sure. actually doesn't one of the guys from ptw use a tele?

oh, and also i'm eternally jealous of you. i wish my '79 sg had an orange to love.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
damien / So much gear, so little time
3
chessparov / So much gear, so little time
11
MooWahmBah / So much gear, so little time
14

Forum Jump
Forum Jump