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mic or pre? Condenser Microphones
Old 30th August 2007
  #1
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abell1234's Avatar
 

mic or pre?

My band is doing an EP, basic tracks are going to be done at a studio, the rest we will do ourselves ( overdub guitars, vocals). I will be doing the recording for the second half. I have an 002r, some 57's, some beta 58's, and an AT3035, going straight into the 002. My question, as in the title, should I get a mic or a pre. I can really only get one before we record, which one will I benefit the most from right now. Eventually I will have a nice chain into the DAW, but for now I'm one and done. I'm leaning towards mic, and thinking about an SM7. If I were to get a pre it would be in the 600 to 800 range for now. Any advice would be awesome.
Old 30th August 2007
  #2
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Tom Hakala's Avatar
 

The first two things that came onto my mind while reading you post were:

AT4047
AT4060

SM7 is a great mic for sure, but I don't know does the 002 have enough volume for that mic?


If you are lucky you can get the both AT4047 and SM7 to fit your budget heh
Old 30th August 2007
  #3
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abell1234's Avatar
 

Thanks for the advice. Has anyone used an sm7 with the digi 002r pres?
Old 30th August 2007
  #4
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amishsixstringe's Avatar
 

Yeah...it's pretty noisy. I would for sure get one of the AT mics mentioned above. They work great with those pres. Something like the RE20 from Electro Voice may be a better choice than the SM7. It's in the same class, but seems to require a little less help from the mic pre. I prefer it to the shure anyhow. Good luck!


Neil
Old 30th August 2007
  #5


Definately get mics first.

What mics depends on what you are doing and the charcter of your instruments and voice.

The mic that has been suprising me the most lately is the Heil PR30. That one works well on guitar cabs, hand drums, and quite a few voices so far. For a $250 dynamic mic, it should be in just about everyones closet.....



-tINY

Old 30th August 2007
  #6
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TheRealRoach's Avatar
Given the budget I would suggest a microphone... for your vocals. I've had the unfortunate experience of using 3035s before while doing some freelance. I would suggest selling it and using that as some extra money toward the budget. Perhaps a Neumann TLM103.

Either way I would borrow/rent some mics that within your price range and while you're at it, rent/borrow something at a higher range like a Neumann U87 just to understand what the differences between budget mics and higher quality mics are.

(If you had some more money I would change my suggestion to getting a mic pre. With a great channel strip style pre of reasonable price (like a Focusrite ISA220) you can work all sorts of wonders with electric guitars especially while using a 57. It would also be able to remedy some of the tonal flaws of the 3035.)

Hell now that I think of it, depending on the music, you could get a great channel strip pre and use one of your 57s for vocals, especially for rock.
Old 30th August 2007
  #7
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I'd say mic first as well, however I'm afraid the 002r pre's aren't going to do a good mic any justice at all. They aren't the best preamps by far and I try to use them as little as possible when I'm recording. They're usually stuck doing tom duty. I'd think a 57 thru a really nice pre would be much better than a sm7 thru 002r pres.
Old 30th August 2007
  #8
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kid deluxe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonboy79 View Post
I'd think a 57 thru a really nice pre would be much better than a sm7 thru 002r pres.
thumbsup

UA Solo 610, and wtih a little extra money you could get a Oktavamod 219..
Old 30th August 2007
  #9
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abell1234's Avatar
 

I am still confused. Will a sm57 going through a RNP, or even a great river, sound better (for rock vocals) than an sm7 (or AT4047) going through the 002r stock pres? BTW you all rock and I learn so much reading the threads on this site, thanks once again
Old 30th August 2007
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abell1234 View Post
I am still confused. Will a sm57 going through a RNP, or even a great river, sound better (for rock vocals) than an sm7 (or AT4047) going through the 002r stock pres? BTW you all rock and I learn so much reading the threads on this site, thanks once again
I'd say yes. My experience varies a little but here's what my story is. When I first started all I had was 002r pres and a blue baby bottle. That combo was horrible on everything I tried it on, and at the time I thought there really wasn't a difference when it came to pres. Now I'm using an MXL V67g thru a UA M610 and it works on almost everything. I also use the M610 with a 57 for rock vocals on a regular basis and love the sound. Now I wish I had the baby bottle back.
Old 30th August 2007
  #11
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amishsixstringe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by abell1234 View Post
I am still confused. Will a sm57 going through a RNP, or even a great river, sound better (for rock vocals) than an sm7 (or AT4047) going through the 002r stock pres? BTW you all rock and I learn so much reading the threads on this site, thanks once again
TONS better. The pres in the digi 002 are very noisy, and a microphone like the SM7 requires a lot of help from the pre, therefore making your signal very noisy. Also, the pres on the 002 are kinda dark and muddy sounding. The SM7 is kinda dark and warm sounding already as well. Just about any mic through a Great river will sound better than any mic through the 002 in my opinion.


Neil
Old 30th August 2007
  #12
selling your 3035 for a 4033 or better and using the extra cash to get a nice 1 or 2 channel preamp sounds like a good idea to me. with an AT40xx, an SM57 and a sweet preamp you could do electric guitar, acoustic and vocals pretty damn well if you take the time to get the sounds right
Old 30th August 2007
  #13
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Tom Hakala's Avatar
 

yo abel,

will you only be recording vocals? and then maybe some acoustic and electric guitar overdubs? what kinda music will it be? metal? rock? pop?

give us more details!



btw, where are you located? in the states?
Old 30th August 2007
  #14
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Pohaku's Avatar
 

You do need a decent pre with substantial quiet gain to get the best out of the SM7. I don't have a 002, but if those that do say it is noisey at high gain, that's a significant problem with the SM7.

You could very well be better off with a Chameleon, RNP or similar and your 57s, unless you got lucky on the used market and picked up both a pre and the SM7 (it is possible -- I have 2 SM7s each bought for $200, and a used Chameleon would run you $575 -- see the current GS classifieds -- a used RNC would be @ $425). I expect that there are other suitable pre options as well in that price range.
Old 30th August 2007
  #15
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abell1234's Avatar
 

I have been checking out the gs classified threads, and will continue to do so. As far as the type of music and application, I will be doing guitars, and vocals mostly. The music is rock, two guitar players, three vocals all male (one is very gritty the other two not so much).
Old 30th August 2007
  #16


I've never used the 002 - But it sure sounds like they put crap pre-amps in there. That's almost unthinkable that they'd put such bad pre-amps (and only 4) in a box that costs that much.

Once you have the box and the power supply, a decent pre-amp doesn't cost that nuch more to impliment than a crappy one.

I guess you need to find a dual pre-amp or channel strip....

Do you have to pay extra for a decent ITB Parametric EQ with Pro-Tools as well????



-tINY

Old 30th August 2007
  #17
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macrae11's Avatar
 

You need both. There's no way around it. If you have to choose one, I'd take a good preamp with a 57, but that doesn't work for every situation. Buy used, rent and buy later, buy one now and rent the other. It's the only way you'll be truly happy. Since you're going to be recording multiple sources, I would say rent mics so you can try out different mics for different sources, and buy a good all around pre, like the Great River.
Old 30th August 2007
  #18
You can't run a dynamic through the 002 pres... not if you want a decent result. Save up your money or assume you will have to re-record anyway. And for what it's worth I'd spend the money the other way round. Put down a guide track on your own kit and get the studio to track the overdubs (at the very least the vocals) and mix. If what you want is a good recording use your money on the studio. Even if you buy decent kit now it'll take you five years to work out how to make it sound good.
Old 30th August 2007
  #19
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimskidog View Post
You can't run a dynamic through the 002 pres... not if you want a decent result. Save up your money or assume you will have to re-record anyway. And for what it's worth I'd spend the money the other way round. Put down a guide track on your own kit and get the studio to track the overdubs (at the very least the vocals) and mix. If what you want is a good recording use your money on the studio. Even if you buy decent kit now it'll take you five years to work out how to make it sound good.
I disagree... if i was in that situation, and only had $800 - i'd buy a AT 4060.... then start saving for a better pre eventually

Old 31st August 2007
  #20
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Tom Hakala's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
I disagree... if i was in that situation, and only had $800 - i'd buy a AT 4060.... then start saving for a better pre eventually

me too. I think you CAN actually make a decent sounding recordings with those 002 pres.
Old 31st August 2007
  #21
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

I would definitely get the Pre-amp first.

I've gotten great results with cheap mics but never with cheap pre-amps.

We all know of a few singers who use 57's for vocals.

Has anyone heard of using a U-47 with a Mackie pre-amp as their go to sound?
Old 31st August 2007
  #22
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abell1234's Avatar
 

Produceher makes a compelling point.....If I go the mic pre route can $600 tp $800 get me a decent pre, and what would it be? I feel like I need to be above $1000 to get a pre that will sound great.
Old 31st August 2007
  #23
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Pohaku's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by abell1234 View Post
Produceher makes a compelling point.....If I go the mic pre route can $600 tp $800 get me a decent pre, and what would it be? I feel like I need to be above $1000 to get a pre that will sound great.
Nah! The list of good preamps for less than that is long - especially if you buy used.

Peavey VMP-2 -- two good tube channels for @$600-800 (only available used).
RNP -- two SS channels for @$425 used.
Sebatron
Grace
Speck
DAV - there is a BG-1 in the classified right now for $650.
Chameleon
Great River (single channel)

etc.

You can certainly spend $1000 a channel or more for a pre if you want (I have some of those too). There are lots of perfectly good more than acceptable pres for far less.

Anyone else feel free to add to the list.
Old 31st August 2007
  #24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Produceher View Post
I would definitely get the Pre-amp first.

I've gotten great results with cheap mics but never with cheap pre-amps.
I agree with this. Sufjan Stevens recorded the vocals on Illinoise with an AT4033 through some old tube pre.... and it sounds fantastic.

If you've got $600-$800 get a used AT large diaphragm condenser for $300 and get either the RNP or a used Sebatron (one on the gearslutz classifieds for $450). The sebatron is a "fat & tubey" pre which would work great with an AT mic. I have a sebatron and RNP and use them all the time next to a pacifica and germanium and they hold up fine.

One other thing you might want to consider is the Groove Tubes stuff. It's in your price range and comes with a power supply that will give you the gain you need for your 002.
Old 31st August 2007
  #25
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Gregg Sartiano's Avatar
 

I'd take those mics, a $300-400 pre (PreSonus Eureka, for instance) and a used Lucid (2496?) or Apogee (Rosetta AD) converter. Or a Chameleon 7602 pre would be great.

But I think upgrading the other stuff without a clocking/conversion upgrade is a waste considering everything right now is going through that 002's front end.

And that AT mic isn't half bad considering what you have in it ($$$) -- meaning: you'd be spending bigger $$$ (hundreds/thousands) to try to significantly outdo it.

If you're in L.A., you can rent a U87, Neve 1073, and a $$$ converter for 1-2 weeks for your upgrade budget. Just a thought...
Old 31st August 2007
  #26
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I would definately pass on the Eureka. It is not a professional sounding preamp. I bought one and really really tried to love it. I even tried convincing myself I was doing something wrong. Then I got some real preamps and realized the Eureka just doesn't hold up against pres that cost just a little bit more. Sure all the pretty knobs look cool but the sound is thin and sterile. Not unusable, just not worth the money.
Old 31st August 2007
  #27
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Tom Hakala's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pohaku View Post
Nah! The list of good preamps for less than that is long - especially if you buy used.

Peavey VMP-2 -- two good tube channels for @$600-800 (only available used).
RNP -- two SS channels for @$425 used.
Sebatron
Grace
Speck
DAV - there is a BG-1 in the classified right now for $650.
Chameleon
Great River (single channel)

I would still go for the mic. But for those RNP is something I've used a few times and some of my friends use it exclusively for everything. I just bought DAV off the classifieds for 600€.

I always thought this sounded quite bad ass at the time I was recording this to this one band: http://koti.welho.com/thakala3/Corro...Sm58%20vox.mp3

Everything we used to record the vocals were a cheap Behringer mixer to EMU 1212m soundcard and SM58. heh
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