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Did the engineers of yester-year argue about gear the way we do now?
Old 30th August 2007
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigma View Post
and you are older but i am fatter and uglier
You haven't seen me lately...
Old 30th August 2007
  #32
Lives for Jesus
 
stevep's Avatar
456 man,... its all about 456 heh ICs and MIDI will never last; its just a passing fad



.
Old 30th August 2007
  #33
Gear Maniac
 

Don't worry, those Pultecs ain't worth sh*t - you need those Orbans, man, now those are smokin' EQ's...
Old 30th August 2007
  #34
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stevep's Avatar
TDK 30s or 60s ?

.
Old 30th August 2007
  #35
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
I suppose I should get a life, because I was thinking about this thread while walking to lunch.

I realized that in the past guys talked about what they liked and why, a lot more than they argued about it. I can not ever remember chatting with another engineer about an 1176 vs an LA-2A on vocals and the conversation ending us with a big F-You!!!

I also think its the fact that most people posting on the internet, do so with pseudonyms , which makes it a lot easier to be combative.
Old 30th August 2007
  #36
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevil View Post
theres a huge "eletronics use is cheating" mentality out there.
Autotune and Beat Detective is cheating
and multi-tracking, punch in/out etc. is not cheating ...stike
Old 30th August 2007
  #37
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numrologst's Avatar
30ips, +9, No dolby
Old 31st August 2007
  #38
Gear Guru
 
u b k's Avatar
 

oh they argued, just about different things. since a lot of them were very tech savvy, things like circuit topology and component choice/specs saw a lot of heat. generally the tone of the dialog was civil, but it often showed itself to be a pretty thin veneer.

i think the main difference between now and then is that back then albums got finished, usually very quickly.

let us not speak of the fact that the album is now dead, or very close to it.


gregoire
del
ubk
.
Old 31st August 2007
  #39
MsM
Gear Nut
 

15 ips, more bottom mojo ...... dfegad 30 ips ..... heh heh heh heh
+9, no Dolby (haven't got the rack online, yet to try ... )
Old 31st August 2007
  #40
Lives for gear
 
Harvey Gerst's Avatar
R-E-P was indeed our bible.
Old 31st August 2007
  #41
Lives for gear
 

Well I wasn't recording "back in the day". But I'm imagining that there probably wasn't much prosumer gear on the market to quibble over in the first place.

I also imagine the market was pretty much split in two. Hi end pro, and mid level demo work/pro. So you pretty much identifed your market and picked the limited choices of gear that fit the budget.

Am I imagining things, or could some of you guys shed more light on this?
Old 31st August 2007
  #42
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
Back in the 70's some people would slam the use of any synth keyboard.
Queen used to put "No Synthesizers were used on this record"
So did Boston, although I think more to point out all the cool, wacky guitar stuff Tom was doing.
Old 31st August 2007
  #43
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm View Post
I also think its the fact that most people posting on the internet, do so with pseudonyms , which makes it a lot easier to be combative.
There is much truth in this. Hiding behind pseudonyms and anonymity
is a mojor reason why there is so much hate and spam on the internet.
Old 31st August 2007
  #44
Dan
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Dan's Avatar
 

yeah, and just more people.
Old 31st August 2007
  #45
It's like when you get cut off by some jerk on the road and he flipps you off, then you are in front of him in the line at a store and then he's all friendly. The internets gender the same screw you I'm not responsible attitude you get when folks are cocooned in their glass and steel housings. I have little respect for those that hide behind "handles", be a man and use your real name or at least do it in the profile. You wouldn't behave in such a poor manner if everyone knew who you were.

"Everyone's Got Something To Hide Except Me and My Monkey" ~ John Lennon

Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades
Old 31st August 2007
  #46
Lives for gear
 
mixerguy's Avatar
maybe ..... because years ago (15 years ago) if you were an engineer, you pretty much had to have worked your way up thru the ranks, (read: the hard way) or went to school, or possibly both.... and to even know what a LA2A or an 1176 was, you had to have had some pretty significant experience..... and to gain that experience, you would have had to have been around people who were undoubtedly wiser and more experienced than you.... and you would have had to have learned a lot from them, or you would likely not have stuck around or made it.

Nowadays $200 (or less!) gets anyone (with absolutely no training or experience) a DAW and some plugins.... and they may have NO critical listening skills.... so to them the BombFactory 1176 plugin sounds GREAT (for example) and it is total B.S. for anyone to say different!!! What do they know!!!?!?!? Plenty of GREAT sounding CD’s have been made with only the BombFactory 1176!!! If you can’t make a great sounding CD with only a BombFactory 1176 then you are a crappy engineer!!!

The other difference is.... nowadays many people confuse songwriting and overall vibe of the CD with the actual production quality and sound of the CD. To me, a classic example is "Come on Feel The Illinoise" by Sufjan Stevens... (someone here recently used that as an example of a “really great sounding CD”)..... to me the performances and vibe on the CD are very, very cool, but strictly on a sonics level, I think that CD sounds TERRIBLE.
Old 31st August 2007
  #47
Lives for gear
 
ryst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
maybe ..... because years ago (15 years ago) if you were an engineer, you pretty much had to have worked your way up thru the ranks, (read: the hard way) or went to school, or possibly both.... and to even know what a LA2A or an 1176 was, you had to have had some pretty significant experience..... and to gain that experience, you would have had to have been around people who were undoubtedly wiser and more experienced than you.... and you would have had to have learned a lot from them, or you would likely not have stuck around or made it.

Nowadays $200 (or less!) gets anyone (with absolutely no training or experience) a DAW and some plugins.... and they may have NO critical listening skills.... so to them the BombFactory 1176 plugin sounds GREAT (for example) and it is total B.S. for anyone to say different!!! What do they know!!!?!?!? Plenty of GREAT sounding CD’s have been made with only the BombFactory 1176!!! If you can’t make a great sounding CD with only a BombFactory 1176 then you are a crappy engineer!!!
HAHA so true!
+++++++++++++++++++++1thumbsup
Old 5th September 2007
  #48
Lives for gear
 
soundbarnfool's Avatar
 

Use technology, don't let technology use you. More quality, less marketing. We are certainly in an age where technology exists largely for it's own sake. Witness all the blather about which box is best: some of this is justified of course, but wouldn't the really productive thing be to make some music? Paging Hal 9000...
Old 5th September 2007
  #49
Lives for gear
 
lowfreq33's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
maybe ..... because years ago (15 years ago) if you were an engineer, you pretty much had to have worked your way up thru the ranks, (read: the hard way) or went to school, or possibly both.... and to even know what a LA2A or an 1176 was, you had to have had some pretty significant experience..... and to gain that experience, you would have had to have been around people who were undoubtedly wiser and more experienced than you.... and you would have had to have learned a lot from them, or you would likely not have stuck around or made it.

Nowadays $200 (or less!) gets anyone (with absolutely no training or experience) a DAW and some plugins.... and they may have NO critical listening skills.... so to them the BombFactory 1176 plugin sounds GREAT (for example) and it is total B.S. for anyone to say different!!! What do they know!!!?!?!? Plenty of GREAT sounding CD’s have been made with only the BombFactory 1176!!! If you can’t make a great sounding CD with only a BombFactory 1176 then you are a crappy engineer!!!
This is why I think it would be cool to have a credits section on our profiles here. Just so you know who you're dealing with.
Old 5th September 2007
  #50
Lives for gear
 
soundbarnfool's Avatar
 

Good point but you can read between the lines...
Old 5th September 2007
  #51
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RCM - Ronan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowfreq33 View Post
This is why I think it would be cool to have a credits section on our profiles here. Just so you know who you're dealing with.
+1
Old 5th September 2007
  #52
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Kris's Avatar
.....

Last edited by Kris; 5th September 2007 at 08:24 PM.. Reason: lame joke :-)
Old 10th September 2007
  #53
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studio1117's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thenoodle View Post
Yesteryear was called R-E-P magazine ... (the magazine...not Fletcher's hangout). That was my bible through the entire 70's and that's where the pros were.

In general ..since it was a magazine..you couldn't really come out of nowhere and start lipping off. Which kept things pretty civil compared to here because the conversations were always one sided. You would never see a letter in R-E-P from a guy asking if his Tapco spring reverb would give the same quality as an EMT plate.

In fact, I don't remember anybody in R-E-P ...all those guys making all those hit records...ever mentioning the concept of using an outboard pre. The concept didn't exist in those days as I remember. Neither did the idea of micro-inspection of which tape to use. You just used tape. You bought it. You biased your machine for whatever brand x you regularly used...you hit "record" ..you recorded a hit...and then you talked about it in R-E-P. There would be the occasional talk about elevated tape levels, but mostly just in passing.

When there were conversations about cool Valley People stuff or discussions about these newfangled tranzamps on consoles, it was more of a presentation of specs rather than a bloodfest.

Interviews with engineers would reveal techniques, tape type, mic positioning, console settings....and then the reader would pull from that whatever there was that was useful.

As I remember from 1974, we only had 62 products to choose from in the entire professional world of recording (most of it seemingly made by MCI there for a minute or so in 1977)...now, we have 18,666,562 products to choose from (half of them microphones). The world of gear was..to me..easier to digest back then.

When some of the home recording mags (like Home Recording in 1974) popped up in response to R-E-P's snootiness, things still stayed pretty civil. All the guys reading R-E-P owned the same 62 pro products for recording hit records and none of the pros acknowledged the lowly home recording, Tascam, Dokorder crowd as anything other than wanna-bes who would never get anywhere. A nice distinct line separated Pro from home and the two rarely mixed in same-conversations.

Compared to the R-E-P days...and the great hits made with the equipment of those days...today is filled with too many instances of people micro-inspecting specs to the point that nothing gets done by a lot of these people.

Really...if you take a look at all of the time blown on discussing and inspecting circuits and components...compared with discussions and analysis of final recorded work.... you wonder how anyone has time to make any music at all.

In fact, I spend far less time here than ever. Over the past couple of years, I've increasingly been searching out the older engineers and producers that I always respected and loved...and I've been hanging out with them while they're still around. Asking questions...listening to what they say. THAT'S where I'm learning the most. Looking at SSL spec sheets at AES 1978 was cool. But that only goes so far for so long. At some point, somebody has to stop the addiction to the specs..and start making some music. Of course if all 18,000 members on Gearlslutz are in the biz of selling gear, that's a different story.

Take a look at a couple of old R-E-Ps. It's one way to clear out your head regarding how crazy insane the gear situation is now.
I completely agree, that's why I buy up alll the old REP mags I find. You can actually learn something from reading them. I want techniques etc. I'm like you, trying to look up all the ol' guys doing the great sounding records and pick their brains. We should write a book.

Jim I was just going to say that the reviews were real back then. You'ld see a piece of gear get cooked in a review and then a few pages later....the ad for the product. (companies new they had to advertise regardless) The truth is, that makes our industry better if we call $hit on a piece of $hit gear. I think that's the cool thing about gear manufactures that hang out here...instant feedback from real (well...) users.
I also couldn't agree more about the people magazine comment. If we could just get tape op...a little more REP-ish they'd be the top dog in my magazine list. The only good thing in mix anymore is the "classic tracks" section(and I think they steal that from SOS mag anyway)
Old 11th September 2007
  #54
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Old Goat's Avatar
 

Ug: "Bang on hollow log with rock."
Zug: "Use big stick. Warmer tone."

Two or more guys together who use tools of any kind--there will be a (ahem) discussion!
Old 11th September 2007
  #55
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china jam's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
nowadays many people confuse songwriting and overall vibe of the CD with the actual production quality and sound of the CD. To me, a classic example is "Come on Feel The Illinoise" by Sufjan Stevens... (someone here recently used that as an example of a “really great sounding CD”)..... to me the performances and vibe on the CD are very, very cool, but strictly on a sonics level, I think that CD sounds TERRIBLE.
So true, and a perfecting example. I wouldn't want to hear this album any other way though.
Old 11th September 2007
  #56
Gear Maniac
 
sluttygearhere's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nukmusic View Post

I also believe that we have/are making "Music Creation" much more technical then it should be.

Man right on

What ever happen to making music from the heart. Now it seems we are more worried about "awesome singles" that the radio will overplay and kill, and sometimes (in my opinion) over perfection of the song. If you ask me there is no art in perfection. We've become a people of pop stars who cant sing to save their lives, People who make "beatz" in their bedroom calling themselves Producers, (not meaning to offend anyone, but I am sure you know what I am talking about) Hip Hop "music", that has nothing to do with music. To me most of it just sounds like noise, and it seems like I can't get away from it .. everywhere I turn there it is. Anyway .. sorry this has gotten OT and I kinda got on a rant .. but anyway ... as far as gear goes, I find someone I can trust, and that I know, and then I talk to them about gear .. what is good what's ok and what not. and then the rest of it I just go find out for myself.

-- Ben
Old 11th September 2007
  #57
Lives for gear
 
mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by china jam View Post
So true, and a perfecting example. I wouldn't want to hear this album any other way though.
OH i would.....





think of how awesome that record would be if sonically it rocked!

Old 11th September 2007
  #58
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midnightsun's Avatar
 

Passion

I think that Gearslutz forum is frequented by folks that want to feed their brains with information/learning on the topic for which their is a shared passion-- music and recording. It is human nature to want to learn and gather knowledge. Sometimes it seems that the actual music gets lost as the dissection begins.

There is an explosion of information and it hits almost every aspect of our lives. This is not unique to recording and music. The good old days are freaking gone for better and worse. The digital computer age has changed out lives as much as the invention of the light bulb.
Old 11th September 2007
  #59
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post

The other difference is.... nowadays many people confuse songwriting and overall vibe of the CD with the actual production quality and sound
Maybe.

I had a nice conversation with Mike Spitz this afternoon and we got to talking about how the business & his clientele have changed over the last 10-15 years...

One of the things he said that I thought was fairly profound was that these days, there's not much "vibe" to kill. It's all but vanished really.

Goodbye human performance. Hello pro-toolz perfection.

Anyway, 15 years ago most all of his clients in the tape machine biz were "pro" users who knew how to care & feed things like big consoles & tape machines. Now it seems like a good majority of his clients are hobbyists... 'rich' cats with money to burn on home studios that rival or exceed what the "pro" standards were years ago and most of them know jack-schlit about any of the gear they own.

When I got into it there was gear-talk around the shop with other engineers but it wasn't anywhere near what it is today, where everyone knows everything even if they don't know anything. It was more about making things sound "good" on the record at hand or 'this 1176 passes more low end then that one' and maybe some debate over what your favorite tape formula & alignment was... Usually project & machine dependant!

On the A800 for projects where tape costs had to be contained I was into 996 or SM900 +7/185 at 15ips with an extra dB at 10kHz on the record side. Top end on the drums is gonna get eaten up by the time it gets to mix... Tried +9 a few times but I didn't like the bottom end oversaturation...
Old 11th September 2007
  #60
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
BTW ~ It wasn't so much "arguing" about gear as it was open discussions...

That's the biggest difference.

Besides, we all had the same 62 pieces of kit to pick from...

The super-successful guys owned all 62 pieces, maybe two or three of some while the smaller frys owned maybe 15 or 20 of the 62 pieces.
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