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Avril: ITB vs OTB DAW Software
Old 28th August 2007
  #241
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How did I know this thread would turn into a bashing session of "modern rock/pop music," "Corporate America," and "Nothing has art to it/there are no artist anymore" crap. Somewhere a guy in a suit is laughing at this thread, saying, "These guys are more predictable than the next song on that Avril album!"

Whether I agree or disagree, that is not my point. Every thread that resembles any subject like this ends up in the same place. Its a broken record.
Old 28th August 2007
  #242
Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post
This is a fvcking satanist piece of "music"... I can't believe you are debating the merits of this fvcking samples. ITB or OTB mixes... Who cares really when the actual music is that nasty....I know it's what today's pop sounds like but ****, I didn't realise it was THAT bad.
1) I chose this example for one reason. As I said earlier, when I polled the GS community for Jaw dropping ITB pop/rock mixes example A in the comparison (a Serban Ghanea mix) was what the overwhelming number of responses told me was the best of ITB on par with the best of OTB.

2) Given the chance I would mix an Avril record in any day of the week. Not sure if that makes me immoral. Even though so many people know my work with prog rock superstars, pop records are so much fun to mix (and should sound great)

3) Mix B was actually mixed by Tom Lord Alge. I made a typo in my original post.

4) Mike C, thanks for the kind words. I gotta keep trying to learn. A few hundred records into this game, I am just starting to get it figured out.
Old 28th August 2007
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
No.... A = SG = ITB

heh
Between TLA CLA SG ITB OTB A B, I forgot which was which. Too many A and B's.

www.bluethumbproductions.com
Old 28th August 2007
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcm View Post
1) I chose this example for one reason. As I said earlier, when I polled the GS community for Jaw dropping ITB pop/rock mixes example A in the comparison (a Serban Ghanea mix) was what the overwhelming number of responses told me was the best of ITB on par with the best of OTB.

....... (snip).....
If the gearslutz community offers up that Serban Ghanea mix as the best example of ITB mixing..... well then..... I'm
Old 28th August 2007
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
If the gearslutz community offers up that Serban Ghanea mix as the best example of ITB mixing..... well then..... I'm
Anyone else heard the Tchad Blake itb stuff? I haven't gotten many responses. You want to compare something worth while, do that.
Old 28th August 2007
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thermos View Post
Anyone else heard the Tchad Blake itb stuff? I haven't gotten many responses. You want to compare something worth while, do that.
Can you list specific CD's and specific songs that you think sound awesome?

that would be very helpful

thanks

MixerGuy

Old 28th August 2007
  #247
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I've heard a bit of the Crowded House. I think a "blind" test like this one (not that this one was blind) with that album might prove difficult if guessing is what it's all about or if guessing means anything at all.

The name of the album is Time On Earth. There are three different mixers...Tchad Blake, Steve Lillywhite, and Ethan Johns.

I think Tchad Blake said he got the tracks as pro tool files, so perhaps it was tracked straight to Pro Tools...not sure really of all the details other than his are all ITB and the other 2 aren't.

I think the Tchad mixes sound pretty nice, certainly as nice as the others, although I didn't listen all that critically, but it certainly wasn't like the Tchad mixes jumped out as being worse, although they are a little different. It's a somewhat softer approach than this Avril stuff....except for maybe the mastering...
Old 28th August 2007
  #248
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THE best ITB mixes are done by the guy who mixed 'the shore' and the BMRC stuff. All ITB..I still can't believe it.
RoundBadge knows the guy and has the low down.
Old 29th August 2007
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
Can you list specific CD's and specific songs that you think sound awesome?

that would be very helpful

thanks

MixerGuy

Time on earth as the below poster said. Pretty much every song he did sounds great. To me they are undoubtebly the best mixes on the album, Steve Lillywhites being a little bright, and the Ethan Johns ones are nice (sounds like a board to me and lots of space) but the mixing isn't quite as polished. Those Tchad Blake ones have the dirt and the air that you associate with all his other mixes, and lots of depth (even though Bob Ludwig did go to town in the compressing/limiting department too much). I believe he uses some outboard comps, but not many.
Old 29th August 2007
  #250
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I know I am 9 pages late to the party but.......heh

ITB Mix- Sounded like it was smashed against my face when siting in front of my Event ASP8's. It sounded like the engineer didn't even attempt to give the song some depth (which I think is totally possible ITB).

OTB Mix- Definitely had more depth. But still over-compressed. I honestly didn't think I would be able to hear a big difference because I don't think my ears are as well trained as some pros yet. But I definitely heard a difference.

My wife immediately heard a difference between the 2 mixes and said the ITB mix sounded like it was coming from a tin can. She said the OTB mix had more depth. I didn't tell her which was which until she told me the differences she heard.

I think we need to stop debating which is better. Not sure how much of that is going on in this thread but it seems like there is really nothing to argue about anymore. If you think mixing OTB works better, then keep doing it. If you think mixing ITB is better, keep doing it. Nobody seems to be changing anyone's mind as to which sounds "better", "more 3D", "fuller", "warmer".

These debates sound like the arguments between liberals and conservatives. They just never end and the same arguments are rehashed over and over without any new original perspectives. Stop making this ITB vs OTB thing a religious crusade! Or as Bob Dobbs once said..."Pull the wool over your own eyes" heh

BTW, thanks for doing this RCM. It's interesting to say the least.
Old 29th August 2007
  #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryst View Post
These debates sound like the arguments between liberals and conservatives. They just never end and the same arguments are rehashed over and over without any new original perspectives.
Well said. I guess we can add one more topic that shouldn't be discussed over dinner. Politics, religion and ITB vs. OTB (replacing Mac vs. PC). heh.
Old 29th August 2007
  #252
Quote:
Originally Posted by indie View Post
THE best ITB mixes are done by the guy who mixed 'the shore' and the BMRC stuff. All ITB..I still can't believe it.
RoundBadge knows the guy and has the low down.
who is that Guy?
BMRC??
Old 29th August 2007
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AMIEL View Post
who is that Guy?
BMRC??
if he means BRMC (as in Black Rebel Motorcycle Club) he might be referring to Rick Parker
Old 29th August 2007
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jumpnyc View Post
Yeah the CLA mix is more 3d definitely - and the thwack of the snare is so much more satisfying (my taste) than the balm of the snare in the first. There is something going on with the verbs that make that 2nd one just more groovy, for me anyway.
I agree. The snare on the ITB sounded plastic and over compressed. It was a closed artificial sounding thwack. And yes the OTB mix sounded much more open and the snare sounded like a snare should.

Not a clear cut case of OTB vs ITB, although it would be compelling. More likely an engineering/mixing issue, rather than which platform was used?
Old 29th August 2007
  #255
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
The clips RCM posted are full resulution .wav - NOT mp3 - FYI -

and i even converted the .wav to 128k mp3 myself, and listened on crappy speakers, and I could still hear the differences in the mixes....
Wow. I had no idea my computer and web connection could stream CD quaity audio.
Old 29th August 2007
  #256
What makes people think these songs weren't tracked mostly live?

I didn't see anyone on this board at any of the tracking sessions I was at.



Why isn't Sgt Pepper subject to the same criticism or any othe great album that in the end is mostly overdubs?
Old 29th August 2007
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fross View Post
More likely an engineering/mixing issue, rather than which platform was used?
+1 thumbsup
Old 29th August 2007
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
...you might want to look in the mirror to see the "moronisation" of which you were speaking....
My sentiments exactly.
Old 29th August 2007
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fross View Post
I agree. The snare on the ITB sounded plastic and over compressed. It was a closed artificial sounding thwack. And yes the OTB mix sounded much more open and the snare sounded like a snare should.

Not a clear cut case of OTB vs ITB, although it would be compelling. More likely an engineering/mixing issue, rather than which platform was used?
Seriously, if anyone believes that mixing ITB makes a snare sound artificial rather than a mixing choice, I've lost all faith in this site...
Old 29th August 2007
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indie View Post
THE best ITB mixes are done by the guy who mixed 'the shore' and the BMRC stuff. All ITB..I still can't believe it.
RoundBadge knows the guy and has the low down.
The Shore (according to AllMusic) was done by Grant Conway. It DOES sound really nicethumbsup

What's BMRC?
Old 29th August 2007
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juniorhifikit View Post
The Shore (according to AllMusic) was done by Grant Conway. It DOES sound really nicethumbsup

What's BMRC?
I think Grant was there engineering but it was Ricks gig.

Quote:
Originally Posted by indie View Post
THE best ITB mixes are done by the guy who mixed 'the shore' and the BMRC stuff. All ITB..I still can't believe it.
RoundBadge knows the guy and has the low down.
Ricks' done the last 2 BRMC[Black Rebel Motorcycle Club] records.
The first one he did, Howl, was ITB and he mastered it himself..all itb with plugs.
the latest one he tracked and mixed/then it went to Brian Gardner for mastering.
He has a really nice Neve 8014 16 ch console and a few API pre's he tracks with.
I think the majority of the recorded drums are his fav clear Vistalite Luddies.loves those things.
mic wise: 414's[OHds],Rodes,C12A..maybe some octava stuff,57's..nothing super fancy..
just a nice room and good engineer.
on occasion,I think on drums,etc, he hits tape[Ampex mm1200]
I think once he told me that he tracked stuff to PT,then ran it to tape and back..for the vibe.
I always harp on him to start mixing through it[8014] as well,but he's completely into the ITB thing and isn't really into dealing with it[console /recalls/outboard,etc]
besides, he works all the time so itb/total recall seems to really suit the workflow.
Last time I hung out with him,he was still just using the MDSP/UA/stock Digi stuff..
none of the newer fancy URS/Waves API/Massey/etc stuff.
..and He still completely kicks my ass at mixing ITB
Old 29th August 2007
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Niedt View Post
My sentiments exactly.
I looked again in my metaphoric mirror but I can't see anything. Thank you for sharing your feelings though.
Old 29th August 2007
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryst View Post
My wife immediately heard a difference between the 2 mixes and said the ITB mix sounded like it was coming from a tin can. She said the OTB mix had more depth. I didn't tell her which was which until she told me the differences she heard.
Funny that, I played both mixes to my pet Cat. He was in my studio at the time looking for some affection - so I thought hey why not. - When mix 'A' was playing he sat bolt upright with a quizzical look on his feline face, he then jumped off my lap and onto the desk to get closer to my monitor speakers...... But as soon as mix 'B' came on - Jeeez! he just lept into the air about 3 feet with his hair up and ran out the studio.

Cats have got much better hearing than humans too.

My cat did not know who mixed what.

or

Who Avril Lavigne is.

I guess he just likes Serban Ghenea, or do 7 out of 10 cats prefer ITB?

meeeoow.
Old 29th August 2007
  #264
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Hah, look what I have found @ MHLabs.com:

Quote:
...Ghenea was reportedly responsible for mixing ten projects that received 13 nominations at the 2003 Grammy Awards, including 'N*Sync, Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, Jill Scott, Musiq, Floetry, and Grits, in categories ranging from pop through R&B, rap, urban/alternative and rock gospel. He took home the statue for Best Pop Vocal Album for Justin Timberlake's "Justified" at the 2004 Grammys. To that list can be added mixing credits on projects for TLC, N.E.R.D., AIR, Jay Z, Liz Phair, Faith Hill, Janet Jackson, Mary J. Blige, LL Cool J, Destiny's Child, Toni Braxton, Dru Hill, Limp Bizkit, and... the list truly just goes on and on.

Of his recent sessions, Ghenea reveals, "Stuff that's coming out soon includes Kelly Clarkson's album, "Breakaway," Diana Degarmo's album, the Xzibit album, and "The Matrix" as well as a number of new artists. Kelly's single, "Since U Been Gone" was produced by Max Martin and Dr. Luke. Other Ghenea-mixed hits on the charts currently include tracks from Usher's American Music Award-winning "Confessions," as well as records by R. Kelly, Jill Scott and Ozomatli - all mixed using ChannelStrip.
Hmm...
Old 29th August 2007
  #265
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Firefox's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Funny that, I played both mixes to my pet Cat. He was in my studio at the time looking for some affection - so I thought hey why not. - When mix 'A' was playing he sat bolt upright with a quizzical look on his feline face, he then jumped off my lap and onto the desk to get closer to my monitor speakers...... But as soon as mix 'B' came on - Jeeez! he just lept into the air about 3 feet with his hair up and ran out the studio.

Cats have got much better hearing than humans too.

My cat did not know who mixed what.

or

Who Avril Lavigne is.

I guess he just likes Serban Ghenea, or do 7 out of 10 cats prefer ITB?

meeeoow.
yeah - great post.
Old 29th August 2007
  #266
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Firefox's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewj View Post
Hah, look what I have found @ MHLabs.com:

...Ghenea was reportedly responsible for mixing ten projects that received 13 nominations at the 2003 Grammy Awards, including 'N*Sync, Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake, Jill Scott, Musiq, Floetry, and Grits, in categories ranging from pop through R&B, rap, urban/alternative and rock gospel. He took home the statue for Best Pop Vocal Album for Justin Timberlake's "Justified" at the 2004 Grammys. To that list can be added mixing credits on projects for TLC, N.E.R.D., AIR, Jay Z, Liz Phair, Faith Hill, Janet Jackson, Mary J. Blige, LL Cool J, Destiny's Child, Toni Braxton, Dru Hill, Limp Bizkit, and... the list truly just goes on and on.

Of his recent sessions, Ghenea reveals, "Stuff that's coming out soon includes Kelly Clarkson's album, "Breakaway," Diana Degarmo's album, the Xzibit album, and "The Matrix" as well as a number of new artists. Kelly's single, "Since U Been Gone" was produced by Max Martin and Dr. Luke. Other Ghenea-mixed hits on the charts currently include tracks from Usher's American Music Award-winning "Confessions," as well as records by R. Kelly, Jill Scott and Ozomatli - all mixed using ChannelStrip.



Hmm...
so does this make his mixes sound great?
Old 29th August 2007
  #267
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Firefox's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Niedt View Post
Seriously, if anyone believes that mixing ITB makes a snare sound artificial rather than a mixing choice, I've lost all faith in this site...
i never had faith in this site
Old 29th August 2007
  #268
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van Overhalen's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Funny that, I played both mixes to my pet Cat. He was in my studio at the time looking for some affection - so I thought hey why not. - When mix 'A' was playing he sat bolt upright with a quizzical look on his feline face, he then jumped off my lap and onto the desk to get closer to my monitor speakers...... But as soon as mix 'B' came on - Jeeez! he just lept into the air about 3 feet with his hair up and ran out the studio.

Cats have got much better hearing than humans too.

My cat did not know who mixed what.

or

Who Avril Lavigne is.

I guess he just likes Serban Ghenea, or do 7 out of 10 cats prefer ITB?

meeeoow.
Timeless piece of art !

Love it!
Old 29th August 2007
  #269
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ryst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Funny that, I played both mixes to my pet Cat. He was in my studio at the time looking for some affection - so I thought hey why not. - When mix 'A' was playing he sat bolt upright with a quizzical look on his feline face, he then jumped off my lap and onto the desk to get closer to my monitor speakers...... But as soon as mix 'B' came on - Jeeez! he just lept into the air about 3 feet with his hair up and ran out the studio.

Cats have got much better hearing than humans too.

My cat did not know who mixed what.

or

Who Avril Lavigne is.

I guess he just likes Serban Ghenea, or do 7 out of 10 cats prefer ITB?

meeeoow.
I wrote that to show that an average, completely untrained ear can hear a difference in those 2 files and even form an opinion on which one they like better. Which one she liked better was irrelevant.

You, however, are just being an asshole for no reason. Stop being an asshole. tutt
Old 29th August 2007
  #270
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryst View Post
I wrote that to show that an average, completely untrained ear can hear a difference in those 2 files and even form an opinion on which one they like better. Which one she liked better was irrelevant.

You, however, are just being an asshole for no reason. Stop being an asshole. tutt
+1
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