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Avril: ITB vs OTB DAW Software
Old 28th August 2007
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post


That does not sound unreasonable to me or far fetched at all - give it a few years and maybe my DAW of choice Logic Pro 7 would have an 'Analogue Desk Preset' Feature.
Well I'm sure that will happen...and I'm sure if you ear squint, it will sound just like an API or a Neve.....

but this is what sort of cracks me up about this whole thing...on the one hand, the "ITB people" go on about how ITB is beating OTB, or it's just as good, (that's the nature of this whole thread), and that if someone prefers the OTB, they're somehow nuts or lying and watch 'em backtrack when they take that Digi test....

meanwhile...the whole ITB world (right now) is based around emulating OTB and all the old school hardware. Does that make any sense at all?

So that old **** must be pretty good to warrant all that emulation. And is an emulation ever exactly the same as whatever it's emulating. Ever?? EVER???

Is it not funny that there are a bunch of threads going on about which is better, for example, the Waves SSL plugins or the URS Console plugins, as if there is a discernible and important difference (between plugs whose whole purpose is to be just like hardware for godsakes), but to prefer the real thing or to be concerned about the difference between ITB and OTB is somehow crazy or wrong or a lie?

Is kind of cuckoo, no?

It's like it's okay to argue over which Elvis impersonator is better, but if someone says they prefer the real Elvis, he's an idiot.
Old 28th August 2007
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
meanwhile...the whole ITB world (right now) is based around emulating OTB and all the old school hardware. Does that make any sense at all?
i wish analog consoles emulated DAWs... 8068 with instant recall... onboard matrix... etc.

it could be done but who would pay the price? it's cheaper (and smaller) for digital to emulate analog.
Old 28th August 2007
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewj View Post
To me the first take sounds flat and not organic! It is like Avrill would press her head aganinst mine and starts to sing while her band stands 0.1 inch heh beside my ears and starts to play their instruments. It is really this direct signal with no space.

The second one is still close, but it has space it feels organic as if there is a band playing together and not as if there are some waveforms put side by side.

sorry I heard it that way in my 200$ JBL system! Will try it on my monitors later this week, but I am sure there will be no better result for mix number one!!!

Perhaps TLA's URS strip pro presets are from this shootout! This is why they were taken away from the page! heh heh heh
Thats exactly how I heard it. The last thing I want is Avril singing 1 inch away from my ear drums. Its like the dentist drilling on your teeth without the luxury of novocaine or gas, but maybe worse.
Old 28th August 2007
  #214
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewj View Post
To me the first take sounds flat and not organic! It is like Avrill would press her head aganinst mine and starts to sing while her band stands 0.1 inch heh beside my ears and starts to play their instruments. It is really this direct signal with no space.

The second one is still close, but it has space it feels organic as if there is a band playing together and not as if there are some waveforms put side by side.

sorry I heard it that way in my 200$ JBL system! ........
I agree with your thoughts...

I had my better half listen, and she does NOT know about music or mixing, and without prompting, she said that when comparing A to B... A sounded "buzzy and all jumbled up, and not nice to listen to"


Old 28th August 2007
  #215
I think the posting of the samples was done wel, is a great idea, and while I'm not certian of the point, I htink it was succesfull - good job RCM!

However, unless I missed it, I'm surprised no one has pointed out that we are not comparing the two mixes. The mixes were mastered and the "better one" may have been altered to match the "lesser one". Yet, that's still hardly an issue, because we're really not comparing the two mastered mixes, were comparing the two after they've been trashed by an MP3 encoder.

One of Kevin Killen's answers in his Q&A here was that he'd like to see people stop using MP3s as references for final album mixes.

I woulnd't be surprised if eveyone had the same opinion listening to 44.1/16bit aiff files on good monitors, yet I also woulnd't be surprised if people had drastically different opinions. I think it's pretty widley acceptat that peaklimited files or clipped files don't survive the encoding process as well as files that haven't been peak limited.

It's very possibly that our opinions are being shaped more by the format and the mastering than the actual mixes. Realistically, we have no way of knowing which mixes in the what-the-mixer-turned-in sense we'd all actually prefer.


I'd hope that one lesson learned from this is that top pros with years of expereinces (meaning RCM) still take the time to as carefully as possible make accurate comparisons as a continual learning process in all of the aspects of what they do.
Old 28th August 2007
  #216
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Caffrey View Post
I think the posting of the samples was done wel, is a great idea, and while I'm not certian of the point, I htink it was succesfull - good job RCM!

However, unless I missed it, I'm surprised no one has pointed out that we are not comparing the two mixes. The mixes were mastered and the "better one" may have been altered to match the "lesser one". Yet, that's still hardly an issue, because we're really not comparing the two mastered mixes, were comparing the two after they've been trashed by an MP3 encoder.

One of Kevin Killen's answers in his Q&A here was that he'd like to see people stop using MP3s as references for final album mixes.

I woulnd't be surprised if eveyone had the same opinion listening to 44.1/16bit aiff files on good monitors, yet I also woulnd't be surprised if people had drastically different opinions. I think it's pretty widley acceptat that peaklimited files or clipped files don't survive the encoding process as well as files that haven't been peak limited.

It's very possibly that our opinions are being shaped more by the format and the mastering than the actual mixes. Realistically, we have no way of knowing which mixes in the what-the-mixer-turned-in sense we'd all actually prefer.


I'd hope that one lesson learned from this is that top pros with years of expereinces (meaning RCM) still take the time to as carefully as possible make accurate comparisons as a continual learning process in all of the aspects of what they do.
The clips RCM posted are full resulution .wav - NOT mp3 - FYI -

and i even converted the .wav to 128k mp3 myself, and listened on crappy speakers, and I could still hear the differences in the mixes....
Old 28th August 2007
  #217
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mtstudios@charter's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
I agree with your thoughts...

I had my better half listen, and she does NOT know about music or mixing, and without prompting, she said that when comparing A to B... A sounded "buzzy and all jumbled up, and not nice to listen to"


Wow, so one of the highest paid, respected mixers of the last 20 years is blending buzzy, jumbled up, not nice to listen to sounds according to the average folk. I always thought TLA was very good at what he does. This is all very subjective, but if you have credits to back it up it doesn't matter. The same will apply to ITB, the more "Photographs" Nickelback, the more acceptance...

www.bluethumbproductions.com
Old 28th August 2007
  #218
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Wow, so one of the highest paid, respected mixers of the last 20 years is blending buzzy, jumbled up, not nice to listen to sounds according to the average folk. I always thought TLA was very good at what he does. This is all very subjective, but if you have credits to back it up it doesn't matter. The same will apply to ITB, the more "Photographs" Nickelback, the more acceptance...

www.bluethumbproductions.com
No.... A = SG = ITB

heh
Old 28th August 2007
  #219
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This is a fvcking satanist piece of "music"... I can't believe you are debating the merits of this fvcking samples. ITB or OTB mixes... Who cares really when the actual music is that nasty....I know it's what today's pop sounds like but ****, I didn't realise it was THAT bad. It's funny to hear these people whinning about the demise of the big studios and "the industry"when the same "industry" and "big studios" are producing these souless, mechanical fascist sounding pieces of crap.
I've got more respect for a kid producing grime/techno/ whatever/ records in his bedroom with a Dell PC and frutty loop than these records by "big shot" mixers and their million $ worth of gear but no ethics.
Old 28th August 2007
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post
This is a fvcking satanist piece of "music"... I can't believe you are debating the merits of this fvcking samples. ITB or OTB mixes... Who cares really when the actual music is that nasty....I know it's what today's pop sounds like but ****, I didn't realise it was THAT bad. It's funny to hear these people whinning about the demise of the big studios and "the industry"when the same "industry" and "big studios" are producing these souless, mechanical fascist sounding pieces of crap.
I've got more respect for a kid producing grime/techno/ whatever/ records in his bedroom with a Dell PC and frutty loop than these records by "big shot" mixers and their million $ worth of gear but no ethics.
my point earlier thumbsup
Old 28th August 2007
  #221
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I guess it was a mistake not using music that every single person in the world likes. Perhaps next time use a hit like Deter n' Franz's "Shprokets go Bing!" or something that isn't so soulless?

Now Vee dance.
Old 28th August 2007
  #222
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post

I've got more respect for a kid producing grime/techno/ whatever/ records in his bedroom with a Dell PC and frutty loop than these records by "big shot" mixers and their million $ worth of gear but no ethics.
Thing is, if some one from a big record company offered them hundreds of thousands of pounds to produce and mix their fruity loop techno grime for mass consumption -would that make them fascist and immoral too?....

There will always be a market for immediate disposable bubble gum pop of many flavours - the funny thing is... how wuch time is spent analysing and scrutinising crappy mixes that conform to today's standard pop rock sound.

I bet CLA would have a hoot reading these forums.

That guy just gets up, goes to his studio produces a radio ready industry standard mix that is fashionable in certain A&R departments and with certain wannabe and already bee mixers. Then when he's done he has his assistants finish up while he goes home to his wife and family to enjoy his quality time and money.

Meanwhile over here on Gearlsutz, these threads RAGE on ridiculously.

ITB / OTB in 10-20 years time these bun fights and debates will not exist anymore. They will be held in the Gearslutz archives for the reasearch purposes of eager students writing papers on the advent and impact of digital audio.

Some new dude will be No 1 Hot Mixer and a bunch of other throw away pop will be being listened to.

Using words such as fascist and notions of mix AE's being immoral is a little misplaced and overstated though dontcha think?
Old 28th August 2007
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post

ITB / OTB in 10-20 years time these bun fights and debates will not exist anymore.
Are you sure? Pro Tools first came out when?

I'm sure there will be something similar to yap about.

As far as scrutinizing those crappy mixes, I spent all of however long the clip lasted (20 seconds?)

I shudder to think that all this mentally ill ranting and raving we do will be archived....for god sakes...DELETE!
Old 28th August 2007
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post

Using words such as fascist and notions of mix AE's being immoral is a little misplaced and overstated though dontcha think?
That's debatable,

The problem with today's corporate world is that nobody's accountable.
I think someone with the exposure of CLA has a responsability, nobody's forcing him to accept these mix duties.
Old 28th August 2007
  #225
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Both are obviously by competent mixing engineers, but I think neither stands out as an excellent mix.

The "depth" of the second sample is about the use of reverb and delay (especially about the stereo-spread of the guitar), NOT about the use of analog desk.

I prefer working on an analog desk (I also do mixing ITB) and like the color it gives to the sound, but in Avril type of material and the way it is done it really doesn't make much (if any) difference if it's done ITB or OTB.
Old 28th August 2007
  #226
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RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post
That's debatable,

The problem with today's corporate world is that nobody's accountable.
I think someone with the exposure of CLA has a responsability, nobody's forcing him to accept these mix duties.
Yeah sure.
nobodies accountable.. blah..blah..
but everyone has an accountant.
And these corporate assh*les pay his bills
Old 28th August 2007
  #227
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post
That's debatable,

The problem with today's corporate world is that nobody's accountable.
I think someone with the exposure of CLA has a responsability, nobody's forcing him to accept these mix duties.
Hmm..

The problem with today's Corporate world is that it is acknowledged to a huge degree as the bedrock of our society. Economics, Free Market, Profit, Growth and all the other damaging bull****.

But to assert that CLA has a 'responsibility' to refuse to mix contemporary pop because it is offensive to your sensibilities it the most fascist and dangerous argument put forward on this entire thread....really.

I would rather live in a world of CLA's than a world of people who espose the views you have expressed.

CLA Rock on Dude!
(In the kind of hyper compressed, warm, spacious, drum replaced way that you do).
Old 28th August 2007
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Hmm..


But to assert that CLA has a 'responsibility' to refuse to mix contemporary pop because it is offensive to your sensibilities it the most fascist and dangerous argument put forward on this entire thread....really.

I would rather live in a world of CLA's than a world of people who espose the views you have expressed.

CLA Rock on Dude!
(In the kind of hyper compressed, warm, spacious, drum replaced way that you do).
I can't see your logic there.
Asserting that someone should be personally accountable for its action is not a fascist statement.

But yeah "CLA Rock on Dude!" A. Lavigne is sooo edgy and "rawk" I want to smash the iPod my daddy bought me.
Old 28th August 2007
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
Yeah sure.
nobodies accountable.. blah..blah..
but everyone has an accountant.
And these corporate assh*les pay his bills
Yeah I know everybody has bills to pay. But that's a bit easy isn't it?
Old 28th August 2007
  #230
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post
Asserting that someone should be personally accountable for its action is not a fascist statement..
Personally accountable to whom, for what, and why?

Because it offends YOUR taste and musical sensibilities.

What crime has been commited? - and who is it a crime towards, the people who buy the music or the Music Fashionista's
Old 28th August 2007
  #231
Deleted bd1be4f
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Personally accountable to whom, for what, and why?

Because it offends YOUR taste and musical sensibilities.

What crime has been commited? - and who is it a crime towards, the people who buy the music or the Music Fashionista's
I agree. If one doesn't care for this kind of music, that's fine. But for anyone to assert that a mixer should by default refuse to work on this kind of music if ridiculous. This kind of music is being made because there's obviously a market and demand for it. And if CLA, TLA or SG refuse to mix it, someone else will simply step in and do the job.


...and that, kids, is how things work in the real world.
Old 28th August 2007
  #232
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The crime of participating actively to the systematic moronisation of the general public.heh
Old 28th August 2007
  #233
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The nature of the beast is such that if it's true that current production methods produce bad results at over inflated prices the following will happen:

A new market will open to fill the void and someone will make alot of money. That's how competition and capitalism work. It's useless to complain about it, and until you do something about it and become successfull doing it - it's either a) BS, or b) BS heh

So having said that, there is a little bit of movement in the other direction. I found it interesting that both Michael Wagener & Terry Manning have been modifying their studios to facilitate "live off the floor" recording in a more practical manner. That's kind of a big deal if you ask me, for a variety of reasons, that are very important.

However, one thing that I believe to be true. Unless you have a big hit/phenomenon on your hands that flys in the face of the current mindset in production - nothing is going to change. Someone has to go out on a limb and have a huge success with it. If it works they will be called a genius, if they fail they will be looked at as a fool. heh

Lastly, if you really think that "this is crap" you should be licking your lips at the opportunity - just like a market investor does when the economy goes south. IE, the worse YOU may think it is, the happier you should be. But I have to question the negativity. It sounds like you (no one here in particular) wish everyone thought the way you do so you can just do what you do without trying/fighting/ breaking the mold ---> TAKING A CHANCE.
Old 28th August 2007
  #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854 View Post
someone else will simply step in and do the job.

That's what the GI's said in Abu Ghraib.
Old 28th August 2007
  #235
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Kris's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller View Post
I guess it was a mistake not using music that every single person in the world likes. Perhaps next time use a hit like Deter n' Franz's "Shprokets go Bing!" or something that isn't so soulless?

Now Vee dance.
Perhaps!heh
Old 28th August 2007
  #236
Deleted bd1be4f
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post
That's what the GI's said in Abu Ghraib.
You didn't really just compare forbidden torture tactics in a war for which the perpetrators were convicted and punished to mixing a pop song, did you?

If so, you might want to look in the mirror to see the "moronisation" of which you were speaking....
Old 28th August 2007
  #237
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Yes. That's my "Shock and Awe" rethoric style.
Old 28th August 2007
  #238
Deleted bd1be4f
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post
Yes. That's my "Shock and Awe" rethoric style.
Nah, it's just plain stupid.
Old 28th August 2007
  #239
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I think it was reasonably funny but I understand that it could have hurt the feelings of an A. Lavigne fan.
To follow with the military and totalistic theme of my last posts, I think that mr CLA's mix style can bear the name of "Blitzkrieg Pop"
Old 28th August 2007
  #240
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I think the problem is that the world needs baikonour to dictate what music is and isn't moral. We've been listening adrift and lost for all this time with no one to tell us what art is right and what art is wrong. How can CLA be held accountable for working on immoral music when he doesn't have someone to tell him which art is right and which art is wrong?

He's a witch he's a witch!heh
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