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Avril: ITB vs OTB DAW Software
Old 27th August 2007
  #181
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dokushoka's Avatar
 

I keep coming back to this thread...

... and what occurs to me is that the only thing that can really be learned from this is that as more and more "hits" are mixed in Protools, more and more A&R guys will come to see Protools as a "safe" platform from which music can be mixed. It is THE buzzword for gear now and it will only continue to gain momentum. Where an SSL was once a necessary tool to do this work, it is now a luxury and an expense, not an asset.

This is really sad. I, personally, do not enjoy mixing in Protools for so many reasons. Before Tony Shepherd comes and tells me its just because I haven't done it enough, I need to say that I can do it just fine and I can make a "competitive" mix. That does not me that I enjoy it or that I feel my clients are getting the most out of me.
Old 27th August 2007
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo View Post
The "CLA mix" was NOT mixed by CLA, turns out it was mixed by his assistant. He was asked to mix the track but had a schedule conflict, they (A&R)/label)) settled for his assistant, who he said could still do a great job, who did it in the "B room"... what for it... ITB!!!

Now what?

-a
Ha!

I found a page that lists the credits, and according to that the "Contagious" song was mixed by Tom Lord-Alge.

Now what!?
Old 27th August 2007
  #183
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Ha!

I found a page that lists the credits, and according to that the "Contagious" song was mixed by Tom Lord-Alge.

Now what!?
I heard that Tom was really busy at the time so he dropped it off at his neighbors house who then mixed it using an Mbox in his garage.

Now what?
Old 27th August 2007
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo View Post
The "CLA mix" was NOT mixed by CLA, turns out it was mixed by his assistant. He was asked to mix the track but had a schedule conflict, they (A&R)/label)) settled for his assistant, who he said could still do a great job, who did it in the "B room"... what for it... ITB!!!

Now what?

-a
so the analog mix was done ITB?! great. well since i preferred # 1, i guess that proves conclusively that ITB beats the ****e out of... ITB? wait. the ones that picked #2 came to the same conclusion.

houston.... we have a problem. --edit-- rcm's post below confirms that there was one OTB mix, so houston, never mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dokushoka View Post
Where an SSL was once a necessary tool to do this work, it is now a luxury and an expense, not an asset.

This is really sad. I, personally, do not enjoy mixing in Protools for so many reasons. Before Tony Shepherd comes and tells me its just because I haven't done it enough, I need to say that I can do it just fine and I can make a "competitive" mix. That does not me that I enjoy it or that I feel my clients are getting the most out of me.
my 2¢ is that it's not sad at all. necessary tool or unnecessary expense, is in the eye of the beholder. tony gets hired for his expertise, not his gear, and so does CLA. what tools each chooses is their own business.

each person is different, and has a certain modus operandi that makes him feel comfortable and in the zone. what's sad about that?

remember when, well you probably don't, but i do, when there was a big stink about electric guitars, pianos and synths not being 'real' instruments, and how sad it was that music was going down the crapper? same thing. AFAIK there are still plenty of people that play acoustic gtrs, pianos, strings and horns and there is still a huge market for them. somewhat different, yes, sad, no.
Old 27th August 2007
  #185
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Halo View Post
The "CLA mix" was NOT mixed by CLA, turns out it was mixed by his assistant. He was asked to mix the track but had a schedule conflict, they (A&R)/label)) settled for his assistant, who he said could still do a great job, who did it in the "B room"... what for it... ITB!!!

Now what?

-a
well that are the "Brilliant ideas of A&R s" and of course how many A&R put the credits of somebody else...just because looks cool???...mmm..many!

I just hope they don't gonna start mixing!!!
Old 27th August 2007
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrox247 View Post
I heard that Tom was really busy at the time so he dropped it off at his neighbors house who then mixed it using an Mbox in his garage.

Now what?
I have the inside scoop that Tom's neighbor was smoking weed while mixing in his garage, and got caught by his mom, who confiscated the tracks and mixed them in her 12-speed blender, and made brownies for the local church bake sale, not realizing there was weed all mixed in with them!

Now what?!?!?
Old 27th August 2007
  #187
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I have the inside scoop that Tom's neighbor was smoking weed while mixing in his garage, and got caught by his mom, who confiscated the tracks and mixed them in her 12-speed blender, and made brownies for the local church bake sale, not realizing there was weed all mixed in with them!

Now what?!?!?
LOL!!!

You win!!!heh
Old 27th August 2007
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I have the inside scoop that Tom's neighbor was smoking weed while mixing in his garage, and got caught by his mom, who confiscated the tracks and mixed them in her 12-speed blender, and made brownies for the local church bake sale, not realizing there was weed all mixed in with them!

Now what?!?!?
obviously ITB (in the blender) rulez.
Old 27th August 2007
  #189
.

FINALLY, this thread is getting INTERESTING heh

THANK you, jp11

.
Old 27th August 2007
  #190
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Ha!

I found a page that lists the credits, and according to that the "Contagious" song was mixed by Tom Lord-Alge.

Now what!?
Dude, you are absolutely right. The OTB is TLA. My mistake!!!


That will teach me to put examples together after late night sessions. Does not really change much. It would have been funny as hell if I screwed up and they were both ITB mixes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Old 27th August 2007
  #191
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Tony Shepperd's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by raal View Post
obviously ITB (in the blender) rulez.
Old 27th August 2007
  #192
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I have the inside scoop that Tom's neighbor was smoking weed while mixing in his garage, and got caught by his mom, who confiscated the tracks and mixed them in her 12-speed blender, and made brownies for the local church bake sale, not realizing there was weed all mixed in with them!

Now what?!?!?
BEST-POST-EVER!!!!!!


Old 27th August 2007
  #193
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
To me, it's not really about better or worse, but about different...and whether I like that difference or not.

but again I'd like to ask, from the ITB is as "good" perspective (I think we all know the general OTB perspective), do you hear any difference at all, not in this example, but in a general overview of the whole ITB/OTB nightmare of a subject....what difference do you hear...any? None at all? If there is a difference, how would you describe it (comparative positives and/or negatives)?
The main differences I heard were to do with tone an edge and separation, lack of softness, too much edge and a diminished soundstage.

BUT for the last 2 years as more experienced OTB people mix in ITB I am not hearing those problems nearly as much, plus as I mentioned earlier I have heard some great classical and film stuff ITB which absolutely does have depth, softness, soundstage and also a thrilling clarity.

I recently heard the mix of 'God is a DJ' by Pink and that to me sounded ITB because it was soo bright in the chorus as well as kicking up a couple of db's - maybe be it isn't and I would be surprised if it was otb. If it was OTB - there ya go' it is difficult to tell sometime.

I admit the faults with bad and older ITB mixes. But they are rapidly diminishing as the skillsets, plugins and 96khz sample rates used by the top mixers are making the differences not just negligable but invisible.

Invisible to the point of ITB mixes now well and truly competing and beating OTB mixes.

For me it is no longer an issue, just a matter of preference. The Digi test was an interesting surprise to me too.

BTW Mixerguy - I am gonna keep comin atcha:

HAVE YOU TAKEN THE DIGI CHALLENGE YET,
WHAT WERE YOUR RESULTS?.....







Your silence is deafening.





In a buzzy, flat, harsh and nasty kinda way.
Old 27th August 2007
  #194
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doorknocker's Avatar
So the CLA/OTB mix is really a TLA/ITB mix?

Is the earth really round?

Did they ever land on the moon?
Old 27th August 2007
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
So the CLA/OTB mix is really a TLA/ITB mix?
No I think it's a TLA OTB mix.
Old 27th August 2007
  #196
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andrewj's Avatar
To me the first take sounds flat and not organic! It is like Avrill would press her head aganinst mine and starts to sing while her band stands 0.1 inch heh beside my ears and starts to play their instruments. It is really this direct signal with no space.

The second one is still close, but it has space it feels organic as if there is a band playing together and not as if there are some waveforms put side by side.

sorry I heard it that way in my 200$ JBL system! Will try it on my monitors later this week, but I am sure there will be no better result for mix number one!!!

Perhaps TLA's URS strip pro presets are from this shootout! This is why they were taken away from the page! heh heh heh
Old 27th August 2007
  #197
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mixerguy's Avatar
to noiseflaw

Hey noiseflaw

Yeah - I hadn’t replied to your post because you know what? I was busy! I didn’t want to take the time to write a considered reply. Take a pill or three and cool down a little, would yah? Honestly - I almost decided to just ignore you, just to see how mad you would get... with the huge red font and all in your more recent post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
You think that the CLA mix has depth and space, to me it absolutely does not.
I think it has MORE depth as compared to the ITB mix. It was a relative comparison. Did I say it was the deepest, best sounding mix I’ve ever heard? NO! Did I say it was a really great sounding mix? NO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post

Try listening to some classical and film music mixed ITB.
Point me in the direction of some classical music that was mixed ITB. I don’t specifically know of any, off the top of my head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post

But somehow I percieve that you will never accept or acknowledge that an ITB can have depth or space.

I wonder if you greatly enjoy playing the role of the 'unconvinced' - I wonder if you feel elevated somehow in your position.
Wow Noiseflaw, you’re a freakin’ genius! How do I know this? Because you have never met me, and don’t even know me, and yet somehow you have this strong hunch that I WILL NEVER “accept or acknowledge that an ITB can have depth or space.”

Wow - you are amazing. Yes, it is true..... I really said that. I really think that. I really feel that. I honestly think that mixing ITB can never have any depth in it.... now or ever.

By the way - WHERE DID I WRITE THIS ON GEARSLUTZ? or even infer it? Please remind me.

Again, it was a relative comparison, between two clips of music. Can you understand that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post

How did you score on the Digidesign test?

Let me guess 100% you identified the ITB mixes straight off the bat, Or are you suddenly going to say they all sounded flat....

Curiously I do not see any contribution from you on the Digidesign ITB test thread. For someone who has yet to be convinced about ITB I would have thought you would be very keen to try the test, check the results - and speak your thoughts...

A few of the big boys have contributed to that thread.

I wonder if you could be so self assured without knowing the results first.

I think you would report back that all the ITB mixes sounded worse.

I don't think you (and some others) want to be convinced or hear those qualities in an ITB mix - and maybe that is why you have not tried the test, it would mess up your world and corrupt your cosy paradigm - it's hard to change a fixed and comfortable postion.

Here you go again - guessing what I feel, when I haven’t said things here to specifically indicate it.

When did I post on GearSlutz I wasn’t “convinced” of mixing ITB?

By the way - I mix ITB it all the time. I also record and mix on consoles too - nice ones - all sorts of Neves, SSL’s etc.

To that end - no, I have not bothered doing the Digidesign ITB test, as i’m busy these days, and also I have done my own tests. I won’t bother to mention my own conclusions here, as given by your post above you already “know” what I thought about what I discovered.... or so it seems.

You accuse me of “ so self assured without knowing the results first” - in regards to guessing ITB mixes vs OTB mixes. I’m guessing this is in reference to the Avril test on this thread. Well, how many times do I need to post this here: I GOT A COPY OF THE AVRIL CD LONG BEFORE THIS THREAD CAME TO EXIST, AND I SAT DOWN, POPPED THE CD IN THE PLAYER, AND WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE CD JEWEL CASE AT ALL, AND WITHOUT KNOWING WHO MIXED WHO.... I QUICKLY LISTENED TO SOME OF THE SONGS, AND WAS ABLE TO DISCERN WHAT WAS MIXED ITB BY SERBAN GHANEA AND WHAT WASNT.

If you don’t want to believe me, fine. I don’t care if you do or don’t believe me.

Ok maybe Serban Ghanea mixes in a way that i don’t like, and TLA does, but.... the sonic differences reminded me of what I associate with mixing ITB vs. mixing on a nice analog console.

Draw your own conclusions. Oh wait - you already have.



I have questions for you, noiseflaw.

Have YOU done much mixing on a great analog console?

Have you done any mixing on a great analog console?

Most importantly - have you done very careful tests - for example: doing a simple, straight ahead mix (that involved one hardware reverb, and no eq and no compression) on a very nice analog console, printed the mix, then later tried to equal or beat the mix by working ITB, and repeating all the pan and level settings? (or even trying many different combinations of pan and level settings.....(all with the same hardware reverb)

Do tell.

Old 27th August 2007
  #198
..

wow, so nothing is as we thought it was in this comparison...

an entire thread wasted at gearslutz - how refreshing and different....


that'll teach us to not do our own research......


what about the wizard of oz?.....tooth fairy?? ...jfk???...B.I.G.??? ....don't TELL me.....


i'm SO disillusioned now.......bwahahahahahahhahaaaaaaaaaaaa




..
Old 27th August 2007
  #199
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Who cares what other people do or how they work?
If someone else's methodology seems inferior to you, and the impact of their work bothers you sooooo much, rather than complaining about the tools they use or the products they are producing, why not channel that energy into producing (what is in your mind) a far superior product. If you don't like the way things are, change them. Producing modern day work that is beyond the sonic reach of the digital medium would certainly be a huge statement, and would certainly provoke thought. It has been my experience, that actions really due speak louder than words.
Old 27th August 2007
  #200
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longfade's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
I hear greater separation, more clarity, and more pronounced transients and punch in the ITB mix. I hear more of a smeary flatness (some may call this "gel"), louder/bigger guitars, and pushed back vocals in the OTB mix. There's definitely more low mids overall as well. I don't hear a lot of deep low end in either mix. And the drum sounds are exactly the drum sounds I personally try to steer away from. To be honest I dislike those kick and snare sounds. That sounds like a 57 jammed up on the top of the snare and then limited with an 1176 in the OTB mix.

to my ears both mixes sound flat and lack depth. I think that has more to do with the production and tracking than with mixing though.

I dfegad on cookie cutter radio friendly mixes.

Brad
Me too, on everything you wrote (small cruddy computer speakers, tho)
Old 27th August 2007
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
BEST-POST-EVER!!!!!!

Woohoo, wow, this is great, I wasn't expecting this, wow, I'm terrible at speeches. Woo! I wrote this just in case....I'd like to thank everyone that made this possible....the gearslutz academy, Rcm, patrox, mixerguy...without whom....all the little people who's names I can't recall...um, wow, this is too much....Avril, of course, who may I say is one of the best plagiarists working in the biz today...I mean that Avril, where are you, there you are, love ya....I'd like to thank weed...and if I may, I'd like to take a minute to discuss a cause near and dear to my heart....a disease called digititis, more commonly known as ITB, which as we all know, plagues so many of us all around the world....there are millions afflicted, locked in a box of pain and heartache...suffering not only from deep delusions, but also horribly bad taste, as well as huge amounts of ear wax or something, clogging they're ability to hear....but I believe if we all band together there will be a cure, and that cure is....and will always be....more cowbell. Thank you...peace in the middle east...big ups to the man upstairs (who's name is Willie, he gets me all my weed)!!

Btw, what do I win, a free lifetime subscription to gearslutz, or...?
Old 27th August 2007
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
I admit the faults with bad and older ITB mixes. But they are rapidly diminishing as the skillsets, plugins and 96khz sample rates used by the top mixers are making the differences not just negligable but invisible.

Invisible to the point of ITB mixes now well and truly competing and beating OTB mixes.

For me it is no longer an issue, just a matter of preference. The Digi test was an interesting surprise to me too.
So with a good ITB mix verses OTB, there is no sonic difference? That seems weird to me. There must be some difference.

I would think, instead of saying ITB is just as good or it doesn't matter, it would or should be something like ITB kicks sonic ass, it has more bottom and an all around better frequency response, more clarity, more punch, more depth, more dynamic range, less distortion and all around more je ne sais quoi. Or does it not have those things? And if it doesn't then...

Maybe the trouble with ITB is it's always trying so hard to be as good or equal to OTB (like that stupid Digi test), when really it should be it's own thing.

ITB needs a better publicist.
Old 27th August 2007
  #203
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Empire Prod's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Maybe the trouble with ITB is it's always trying so hard to be as good or equal to OTB (like that stupid Digi test), when really it should be it's own thing.

ITB needs a better publicist.

I agree. These are two very different and unique technologies which each have inherent advantages and disadvantages that are peculiar to the medium.
Old 27th August 2007
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
Hey noiseflaw

Yeah - I hadn’t replied to your post because you know what? I was busy! I didn’t want to take the time to write a considered reply. Take a pill or three and cool down a little, would yah? Honestly - I almost decided to just ignore you, just to see how mad you would get... with the huge red font and all in your more recent post.
Cool you have bitten! I was not angry at all - red is a dynamic colour it suggests urgency, it;s attention grabbing....

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
To that end - no, I have not bothered doing the Digidesign ITB test, as i’m busy these days, and also I have done my own tests. I won’t bother to mention my own conclusions here, as given by your post above you already “know” what I thought about what I discovered.... or so it seems.
That's a pity - prove me wrong then, what did you discover?

Well what really intrigued me about your position on ITB v OTB was that you always seemed to find and accent the negative aspects..... I was curious and am curious to know if you have felt any benefits of ITB - the DIGI test is not the be all test but it is never the less worthy of some attention.

I am still interested in your conclusions ie, does it give you any positive feeling for what can be achieved with an ITB mix.

I am now a fledgling composer and producer (mainly composer). I come from a performance background of playing Guitar in a jazz/ acoustic fusion context and touring work too.

I recently built a studio in and have just started to get paid for composing work.

I realised very quickly while mixing in the box what the issues were (and I hated them), even running some of my tracks through a friends analogue Raindirk console after I had laboured and failed to soften them was a better option.

However the new plugs and my slowly developing mix chops have helped me get a much better sound ITB sound and strangely enough my friend with the Raindirk now comes to me for mix advice (and I am not a mixer).

I am keen to solve the ITB problems I will earnestly listen and re-listen to console based mixes and use them as benchmark recordings to match my own against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
Most importantly - have you done very careful tests - for example: doing a simple, straight ahead mix (that involved one hardware reverb, and no eq and no compression) on a very nice analog console, printed the mix, then later tried to equal or beat the mix by working ITB, and repeating all the pan and level settings? (or even trying many different combinations of pan and level settings.....(all with the same hardware reverb)
As I do not come from an OTB mix perspective I have no need to match my ITB stuff because I have no OTB template to measure them to. I am not trying to re-create a sound because my mix experience is all ITB.

Does that make me biased against OTB - ABSOLUTELY NOT, as I said I am still measuring my sound against certain sonic qualities of analogue.

I would be foolish and deaf to ignore the benefits and qualities of either format and deluded and insincere if I had a myopic ITB agenda.

If I felt ITB was way off mark and leading nowhere fast, I would already be saving my pennies for an analogue desk without any hesitation......but because of the massive amounts of dsp now at our disposal and the willingness and ability of the software industry to provide much better plugins I would rather save my pennies for some decent outboard and top notch converters.
Old 27th August 2007
  #205
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
So with a good ITB mix verses OTB, there is no sonic difference? That seems weird to me. There must be some difference.

I would think, instead of saying ITB is just as good or it doesn't matter, it would or should be something like ITB kicks sonic ass, it has more bottom and an all around better frequency response, more clarity, more punch, more depth, more dynamic range, less distortion and all around more je ne sais quoi. Or does it not have those things? And if it doesn't then...
No because making absolute statements like that about either format are now pretty much obsolete.

But of those two naff mixes that were posted I heard more beef, more punch, more vibe in mix one - BUT I thought the sonic qualities of mix two were better suited to the arrangement and style of mix one- ie fresher, crisper cleaner.

see where does that leave us.... as I said It did not really matter to me because neither of those loud flat mixes lit my creative fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Maybe the trouble with ITB is it's always trying so hard to be as good or equal to OTB (like that stupid Digi test), when really it should be it's own thing. ITB needs a better publicist.
It is very very good that ITB uses OTB as it's benchmark, it is a natural evolution to some extent.

Once ITB has nailed to characteristics and sonic qualities of OTB it will then go further, that to me lies in the direction of clarity and immediacy these are adjectives that define some great ITB qualities to me.

But we can and probably will go on and on with our endless definitions and descriptions
Old 27th August 2007
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
It is very very good that ITB uses OTB as it's benchmark, it is a natural evolution to some extent.

Once ITB has nailed to characteristics and sonic qualities of OTB it will then go further, that to me lies in the direction of clarity and immediacy these are adjectives that define some great ITB qualities to me.
I suppose so....but in all the digital "nailing" and emulating, it seems to me the only thing that is changing are people's ears (they're squinting a lot, if that's possible to do with your ears).

Did tape recording try to emulate straight to disk wax cylinder recording, or whatever it was?


Quote:

Once ITB has nailed to characteristics and sonic qualities of OTB
Btw, you're saying ITB hasn't nailed the characteristics and sonic qualities yet.
Old 27th August 2007
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doorknocker View Post
So the CLA/OTB mix is really a TLA/ITB mix?
Wouldn't that be fantastic? I'd love to see all the backtracking brought on by that one...
Old 28th August 2007
  #208
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
Btw, you're saying ITB hasn't nailed the characteristics and sonic qualities yet.
No I do not think it has because the analogue sonic characteristics are to some degree a 'moveable feast' so to speak.

If the main problem with digital recording is it's stark and unforgiving realism, meaning you hear back what you put in - without any of the pleasing characteristics added by sending the sound through a decent analogue console, a DAW would have to produce some of these things naturally.

I guess what I am saying is, I would like to have my DAW of choice have the ability to give me the different flavours of an analogue desk without the need of seperate emulation or convolution plugs to get that flavour.

If the dsp in the future keeps on increasing then I would welcome DAW manufacturers building in convo and emulation features integrally into the workstation. Ok it may sound daft.... but if I could set my DAW to give me an SSL sound or a Neve sound or some funky made up mixed up hybrid vibe culled from a bunch of analogue console characterisitics I would be happy.

If I could set my DAW to dial those sounds in (or not) ie, just have the clean natural digital signal if I wished, then that would be a great starting point, and I could then apply the DAW 'analogue desk' pre-set to whatever project I thought it suited.


That does not sound unreasonable to me or far fetched at all - give it a few years and maybe my DAW of choice Logic Pro 7 would have an 'Analogue Desk Preset' Feature.

I mean we will soon have the dsp... why not?


I'm rambling now.
Old 28th August 2007
  #209
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BradM's Avatar
I think next year or the following year this will be the big trend with all the DAW manufacturers. It will happen. But it's most likely going to be not one of the big platforms that gives us this capability first. Digidesign is too big to implement such a huge architecture change. I bet we see it first on some new no-name DAW or from a forward thinking company like those that make Sonar or Samplitude. Who knows, maybe Steinberg will step up to the plate first.

Brad
Old 28th August 2007
  #210
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longfade's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
Hey noiseflaw

Yeah - I hadn’t replied to your post because you know what? I was busy! I didn’t want to take the time to write a considered reply. Take a pill or three and cool down a little, would yah? Honestly - I almost decided to just ignore you, just to see how mad you would get... with the huge red font and all in your more recent post.



I think it has MORE depth as compared to the ITB mix. It was a relative comparison. Did I say it was the deepest, best sounding mix I’ve ever heard? NO! Did I say it was a really great sounding mix? NO.



Point me in the direction of some classical music that was mixed ITB. I don’t specifically know of any, off the top of my head.



Wow Noiseflaw, you’re a freakin’ genius! How do I know this? Because you have never met me, and don’t even know me, and yet somehow you have this strong hunch that I WILL NEVER “accept or acknowledge that an ITB can have depth or space.”

Wow - you are amazing. Yes, it is true..... I really said that. I really think that. I really feel that. I honestly think that mixing ITB can never have any depth in it.... now or ever.

By the way - WHERE DID I WRITE THIS ON GEARSLUTZ? or even infer it? Please remind me.

Again, it was a relative comparison, between two clips of music. Can you understand that?



Here you go again - guessing what I feel, when I haven’t said things here to specifically indicate it.

When did I post on GearSlutz I wasn’t “convinced” of mixing ITB?

By the way - I mix ITB it all the time. I also record and mix on consoles too - nice ones - all sorts of Neves, SSL’s etc.

To that end - no, I have not bothered doing the Digidesign ITB test, as i’m busy these days, and also I have done my own tests. I won’t bother to mention my own conclusions here, as given by your post above you already “know” what I thought about what I discovered.... or so it seems.

You accuse me of “ so self assured without knowing the results first” - in regards to guessing ITB mixes vs OTB mixes. I’m guessing this is in reference to the Avril test on this thread. Well, how many times do I need to post this here: I GOT A COPY OF THE AVRIL CD LONG BEFORE THIS THREAD CAME TO EXIST, AND I SAT DOWN, POPPED THE CD IN THE PLAYER, AND WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE CD JEWEL CASE AT ALL, AND WITHOUT KNOWING WHO MIXED WHO.... I QUICKLY LISTENED TO SOME OF THE SONGS, AND WAS ABLE TO DISCERN WHAT WAS MIXED ITB BY SERBAN GHANEA AND WHAT WASNT.

If you don’t want to believe me, fine. I don’t care if you do or don’t believe me.

Ok maybe Serban Ghanea mixes in a way that i don’t like, and TLA does, but.... the sonic differences reminded me of what I associate with mixing ITB vs. mixing on a nice analog console.

Draw your own conclusions. Oh wait - you already have.



I have questions for you, noiseflaw.

Have YOU done much mixing on a great analog console?

Have you done any mixing on a great analog console?

Most importantly - have you done very careful tests - for example: doing a simple, straight ahead mix (that involved one hardware reverb, and no eq and no compression) on a very nice analog console, printed the mix, then later tried to equal or beat the mix by working ITB, and repeating all the pan and level settings? (or even trying many different combinations of pan and level settings.....(all with the same hardware reverb)

Do tell.


Wow - seems like maybe you're the one that should 'take a pill'.
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