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Avril: ITB vs OTB DAW Software
Old 29th August 2007
  #271
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Kris's Avatar
My wife is also super sensitive to the 'high end harshies'. She literally cannot stomach a lot of music that has the overcompressed mastering treatments of recent years. Because of that, I use her to judge my mixes at times as well. Nice work, making your wife useful!thumbsup
Old 29th August 2007
  #272
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryst View Post
I wrote that to show that an average, completely untrained ear can hear a difference in those 2 files and even form an opinion on which one they like better. Which one she liked better was irrelevant.
No. your wife can tell the difference - she does not represent the vox pop and you used her opinion to support and re-inforce your own opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryst View Post
You, however, are just being an asshole for no reason. Stop being an asshole. tutt
Hey Lighten up! - don't be so precious

This thread has reached the point of no return now with it's endless polarised 'partisan' posturing, and has become merely the playground for my amusement.

Get over it.
Old 29th August 2007
  #273
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ryst's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
No. your wife can tell the difference - she does not represent the vox pop and you used her opinion to support and re-inforce your own opinion.
Give me a break. It didn't matter which one she liked better. The first question I asked her was if she could tell a difference between the 2 files. She was very quick to say yes and started to give me her thoughts on both. Then I told her which was which.
So how is that re-enforcing my opinion??? Are you assuming if she chose the ITB mix I would have not mentioned in my post that I showed this test to her?

I listened to these 2 files hoping to find out how "trained" my ears are and if I could hear the difference between the 2 mixes. I could easily. So I then asked my wife who has no idea wtf I do everyday or how it all works if she could tell a difference. That was the only reason I showed it to her. TO SEE IF SHE COULD TELL A DIFFERENCE. Finding out which one she liked better was completely irrelevant to me.

I also never said or even feel she represents the vox pop. Don't put words in my mouth. tutt
I do find it very interesting how she could tell noticeable a difference and some people here could not. Nothing more than interesting.

What does this prove? I'm not sure. Just because IN THIS CASE I preferred the OTB mix doesn't mean I am gonna sell my computer and plug-ins and buy an analog board and a ****load of outboard gear. I enjoy mixing ITB and my opinion on THIS PARTICULAR TEST means that I could hear a difference. I preferred the OTB mix better IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. It does not change my opinion of ITB vs OTB and I do believe you can get great ITB mixes if you know what you are doing. I am staying ITB regardless of my opinions of THIS TEST.

Your assumptions that I used my wife to support and re-enforce my own opinions are pathetic. But don't worry, I was never mad at you. Just stop being an asshole.
Old 29th August 2007
  #274
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soundawg's Avatar
 

OK - I myself don't have the opertunity to speak with dozzens of other AEs in person all the time...

And I admit that sometimes I find it hard to relate to what some of the folks around here mean when they say things like "huge difference" or "completely different" or "smashed the hell out of" etc...

What this thread has done for me is to point out that these colosal massive differences some are arguing about - are sometimes just on the theshold of what the average public can even discern!

Sometimes - it appears that the AEs can't hear 'it' either.

It has also shown me that I can stop stressing about - if I should make the $20,000.00+ jump to all OTB...NOT!

At least not till I get paid a lot more per gig!

But with 'the way things are' these days - I can't see my percieved value doubling in this decade... sad but true.

The differences here - well I can hear them - but in response to mixerguy... throw me a bone here... you said something like - you can hear 'behind the mix' the 'depth'... I think I hear it too - but I hear it as different choices in reverbs/EQs, or maybe some envelope shaping a la Transient Designer... am I missing the point?

Isn't it possible for the OTB mix to have been 'cleaned up' by removing some room to sound more like the ITB... and then would it also be possible to get the ITB to sound more deep with less 'room removal'?

Or am I not hearing what you guys are referring to?

BTW - I feel I liked the OTB better, is was less harsh... and i interpret the the OTB as more inviting.

Soundawg
Old 29th August 2007
  #275
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Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

I can't believe that no one has addressed the fact that Ronan made us listen to Avril Lavigne!

You sir, do not fight fair.
Old 29th August 2007
  #276
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundawg View Post
.... (snip).....
The differences here - well I can hear them - but in response to mixerguy... throw me a bone here... you said something like - you can hear 'behind the mix' the 'depth'... I think I hear it too - but I hear it as different choices in reverbs/EQs, or maybe some envelope shaping a la Transient Designer...

.... (snip).....

Soundawg
Heya Soundawg

Well, to me, it is the overall sonic picture that is less deep (and more flat) in example A.... (as compared to B) ....and I don't attribute it to merely reverb or EQ choice..... or even a Tansient Designer (great box, by the way, as an aside)

Old 29th August 2007
  #277
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryst View Post
Give me a break. It didn't matter which one she liked better. The first question I asked her was if she could tell a difference between the 2 files. She was very quick to say yes and started to give me her thoughts on both. Then I told her which was which.
So how is that re-enforcing my opinion??? Are you assuming if she chose the ITB mix I would have not mentioned in my post that I showed this test to her?

I listened to these 2 files hoping to find out how "trained" my ears are and if I could hear the difference between the 2 mixes. I could easily. So I then asked my wife who has no idea wtf I do everyday or how it all works if she could tell a difference. That was the only reason I showed it to her. TO SEE IF SHE COULD TELL A DIFFERENCE. Finding out which one she liked better was completely irrelevant to me.

I also never said or even feel she represents the vox pop. Don't put words in my mouth. tutt
I do find it very interesting how she could tell noticeable a difference and some people here could not. Nothing more than interesting.

What does this prove? I'm not sure. Just because IN THIS CASE I preferred the OTB mix doesn't mean I am gonna sell my computer and plug-ins and buy an analog board and a ****load of outboard gear. I enjoy mixing ITB and my opinion on THIS PARTICULAR TEST means that I could hear a difference. I preferred the OTB mix better IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. It does not change my opinion of ITB vs OTB and I do believe you can get great ITB mixes if you know what you are doing. I am staying ITB regardless of my opinions of THIS TEST.

Your assumptions that I used my wife to support and re-enforce my own opinions are pathetic. But don't worry, I was never mad at you. Just stop being an asshole.
+1 !!!

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
Old 29th August 2007
  #278
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
Heya Soundawg

Well, to me, it is the overall sonic picture that is less deep (and more flat) in example A.... (as compared to B) ....and I don't attribute it to merely reverb or EQ choice.....


Word.
Old 29th August 2007
  #279
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
+1 !!!

thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup
I feel all insecure now, especially what with you agreeing in such a strenuous and enthusiastic way.

I obviously (somewhere down the line) managed to really get to you.

Not everything wasted then.heh

...Would still welcome your thoughts on the Digi test though. But something tells me your gonna be all quiet and bashful about' em.
Old 29th August 2007
  #280
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ProducerBoy's Avatar
 

I skipped past all the hair pulling and bra snapping, so I hope I didn't miss anything meaningful.


Here's my 2 cents: I preferred the Lord-Alge treatment, but that has more to do with his mixing style. As far as OTB vs ITB, I think OTB can sound better. ITB is just another way of doing it. A great mixer can make a great ITB mix if it was engineered properly. OTB vs ITB is a relative taste battle. You'll argue according to taste and preference. OTB isn't necessary for every situation, so you can't write off ITB.
Old 29th August 2007
  #281
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andrewj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefox View Post
so does this make his mixes sound great?
No it does not! And I did not say it with any word! My conclusion was: "Hmm..." Perhaps you should start to read a bit more carefully!
Old 29th August 2007
  #282
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longfade's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by baikonour View Post
The crime of participating actively to the systematic moronisation of the general public.heh
All the stuff you're saying sounds like the kind of naiive crap I used to say when I was an ignorant college student.
Old 29th August 2007
  #283
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colinmiller's Avatar
 

I still think it would be more fair to compare the choruses.

ITB would have an advantage in that the left/right info would be more equal to each other.

ITB would have the advantage in that it's a catchier song which could be perceived as better sounding.

ITB would have a disadvantage in that the chorus is where ITB tends to collapse with more tracks.
Old 30th August 2007
  #284
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Alex Niedt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Firefox View Post
so does this make his mixes sound great?
That in itself does not make his mixes great, but if I was hiring someone to mix an R&B/pop project, Serban would certainly be one of the first people I'd ask...if I could afford him.
Old 30th August 2007
  #285
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller View Post
ITB would have a disadvantage in that the chorus is where ITB tends to collapse with more tracks.
I'm dying to see some concrete test data that proves this hypothesis.

Brad
Old 30th August 2007
  #286
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Dave Peck's Avatar
 

OK, just read the first three or four page & my eyes glazed over.

Y'all are nuts.

Comparing two completely different recordings and discussing ITB vs. OTB is like driving a red Porsche and a black Ferrari on two different roads and discussing which paint color is best for handling in the corners.
Old 30th August 2007
  #287
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I think my favorite posts in this thread are the ones with little analogies and insults about how this test isn't valid. I hope there are a thousand more of those as they never get tired and they are always enlightening and helpful, especially since I keep forgetting that it's 2 different songs and 2 different mixers and that we are all nuts.
Old 30th August 2007
  #288
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I think my favorite posts in this thread are the ones with little analogies and insults about how this test isn't valid. I hope there are a thousand more of those as they never get tired and they are always enlightening and helpful, especially since I keep forgetting that it's 2 different songs and 2 different mixers and that we are all nuts.
too funny! you made me chuckle... nice one!!

thumbsup
Old 30th August 2007
  #289
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Peck View Post
OK, just read the first three or four page & my eyes glazed over.

Y'all are nuts.

Comparing two completely different recordings and discussing ITB vs. OTB is like driving a red Porsche and a black Ferrari on two different roads and discussing which paint color is best for handling in the corners.
why are we nuts?

let us say we give two top chefs approximately the same ingredients, and we say to them: make us the best chocolate cake that you can, but chef A has to use a conventional oven to bake the cake, and chef B has to use a microwave.

If I was also a chef, (but I didn’t make as much $, or have as much fame as the two top chefs did....) but still.... I’m a guy who is committed to a life of learning....

So ... I’d really like to try a slice of the cake made in the oven, then immediately try a slice of the cake made in the microwave.... and compare the two. Yes, they are different chefs, but I’d like to learn more about the differences between the two cooking methods, and as well the techniques of two top chefs used in this particular situation.


Old 30th August 2007
  #290
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colinmiller's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad McGowan View Post
I'm dying to see some concrete test data that proves this hypothesis.

Brad
Just go listen to the song in the example all the way through instead of just the snippet provided. It's not a hypothesis. But I get the feeling you are mistakenly assuming this is the case for ITB as a whole as opposed to this mix.

And if the OP would put the chorus of both songs instead of verses, you could hear it more easily.
Old 30th August 2007
  #291
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colinmiller's Avatar
 

And guys, this is not so much a comparison of ITB vs OTB as it is the difference between two techniques used by two different mixers.
Old 30th August 2007
  #292
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mixerguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by colinmiller View Post
And guys, this is not so much a comparison of ITB vs OTB as it is the difference between two techniques used by two different mixers.
it is both

Old 30th August 2007
  #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixerguy View Post
why are we nuts?

let us say we give two top chefs approximately the same ingredients, and we say to them: make us the best chocolate cake that you can, but chef A has to use a conventional oven to bake the cake, and chef B has to use a microwave.

If I was also a chef, (but I didn’t make as much $, or have as much fame as the two top chefs did....) but still.... I’m a guy who is committed to a life of learning....

So ... I’d really like to try a slice of the cake made in the oven, then immediately try a slice of the cake made in the microwave.... and compare the two. Yes, they are different chefs, but I’d like to learn more about the differences between the two cooking methods, and as well the techniques of two top chefs used in this particular situation.


Absolutely.

And perhaps, most likely even, after a time of tasting from the top chefs, and your own cooking, you just might find that a pattern emerges, and maybe most of the time you find yourself enjoying the stuff from the conventional oven more, or you find you enjoy cooking in it more yourself, or maybe you prefer the micro, or maybe you like both or maybe you like neither, or maybe you like the conventional but all you can afford is the micro. Or maybe some chefs make the micro happen, but in general you still prefer the conventional etc. and so forth....

okay now I'm hungry, I'm going to go pop a Hot Pocket in the box .
Old 30th August 2007
  #294
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Dave Peck's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JP11 View Post
I think my favorite posts in this thread are the ones with little analogies and insults about how this test isn't valid. I hope there are a thousand more of those as they never get tired and they are always enlightening and helpful, especially since I keep forgetting that it's 2 different songs and 2 different mixers and that we are all nuts.
Doh! OK, OK, I went back and skimmed some of pages 4 through 10. Guilty as charged.

"...........Never mind..........."

- Emily Latella

P.S. - ProducerBoy : "hair pulling and bra snapping". HAH! Good one heh
Old 30th August 2007
  #295
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C Heat's Avatar
 

I wonder if Avril will read this.
Old 30th August 2007
  #296
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colinmiller's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Heat View Post
I wonder if Avril will read this.
I hadn't stopped to consider that she could read...
Old 30th August 2007
  #297
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longfade's Avatar
 

Okay, originally I liked A better, and on computer speakers at work it probably did sound better - competing with ambient background noise at a very low volume, all those incredibly spiky transients and shrill high end are very effective at punching the sound through. Listening at home on monitors in a control room, B sounded I guess better to me, but yeah, this is definitely comparing shades of grey. This goddamned music is so bad it was all I could do to get through two passes of what's-her-name's brassy, strident, bratty voice. Jesus Christ that **** is awful. Her voice is just un-freaking-bearable. Even at it's very best it's just what it is. I think both mixes serve the song perfectly well, but the end product is as bad as it gets.
Old 30th August 2007
  #298
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C Heat's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by longfade View Post
but the end product is as bad as it gets.
As opposed to?...
Old 30th August 2007
  #299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzpunk View Post
I can't believe that no one has addressed the fact that Ronan made us listen to Avril Lavigne!

You sir, do not fight fair.

Poor Avril is getting a bad rap. While I admit this album will probably not be her "exile on main street" I still think her songs I still think the songs "I'm with you" and "Loosing my grip" from her first album are better than at least 90% of the stuff I have heard pop/modern rock radio in the last 5 years.

YouTube - I'm with you - Avril Lavigne
Old 30th August 2007
  #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longfade View Post
All the stuff you're saying sounds like the kind of naiive crap I used to say when I was an ignorant college student.
So now you're an ignorant post graduate?
I don't understand... I've obtained my M.A in 1997 and I haven't been lobotomised since.
if you're not aware that the systematic "moronisation" of the general public is a reality then I don't know who's the most naive.
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